Return To Monkey Island - MI2 sequel from Ron Gilbert

[JarlFrank]

The ending of LeChuck's Revenge was sent right to the trash by the Curse team, because that is where it always belonged.

Nah. I loved that ending; the whole thing was a fantasy in a child's mind all along.

Spoiler alert: when you play a game, or read a book, or watch a movie, you are the child in whose mind it's all real.
Until the retarded author barrels through the fourth wall during the ending, grabs you by the hair and yells in your face: "IT'S ALL JUST A MADE UP STORY DUDE, NONE OF THIS REALLY HAPPENED!!"
And then the spell breaks and the story is no longer real in your mind. And you feel disappointed because none of the story's buildup paid off in the end.

Unless you're some kind of schizo, you know the story you're being told isn't real. But you still engage with it as if it were. That's the contract made between storyteller and reader/viewer/player: for the duration of playing the game, reading the book, watching the movie, you pretend that the story is real. You enjoy the sights, the characters, the plot twists, the humor that results from quirky characters interacting with each other. You're having fun.

But then, when the author is supposed to give you a satisfying ending for all the plot threads he had constructed up to that point, he instead reminds you that none of this was real so it doesn't matter anyway.
And in doing so, he breaks the trust you put into him to tell a compelling story. He ruins his own work through his cleverness (which isn't actually that clever, because you knew all along this isn't real).

The ending of MI 2 is not that either. Saying that everything that happened in the two games had been just imagination would be stupid. But that isn't what the ending is doing. The game foreshadows that something strange is going on. In particular I remember there were tunnels and whatnot that were completely out of place. The ending showing that Chuckie is still somehow Le Chuck and that Elaine is still around clearly show that is not what it was aiming for.

But likewise it is stupid to retcon the whole thing into some kind of spell or whatever (sorry, I've never actually played MI 3). The thing completely ignores the foreshadowing and turns the whole event into something rather prosaic. The whole point of hoping for Ron's version of the game was that, at least for me, I hoped he had an actual idea of how to give those things a half-way decent pay off.

Of course. I always found the "it was just two kids playing a game!" explanation stupid because it completely ignores Chucky's glowing eyes and Elaine remaining hanging over the hole.

But the new game is exactly like that. I watched the ending and it's literally Guybrush telling his son a story and explaining the non-ending away with stupid excuses.

 

[Darkozric]

Damn, Strangeland filtered you HARD...

Well, not as hard as you think. It's a WadjetEye game, more or less I knew what was coming. Thankfully it lasted only 4 hours.

 

[Alex]

Adventure games have been dead for quite a while.

Two more weeks, to be more precise

I think you misspelled "decades".

 

[The BRM]

The ending of LeChuck's Revenge was sent right to the trash by the Curse team, because that is where it always belonged.

Nah. I loved that ending; the whole thing was a fantasy in a child's mind all along.

Spoiler alert: when you play a game, or read a book, or watch a movie, you are the child in whose mind it's all real.
Until the retarded author barrels through the fourth wall during the ending, grabs you by the hair and yells in your face: "IT'S ALL JUST A MADE UP STORY DUDE, NONE OF THIS REALLY HAPPENED!!"
And then the spell breaks and the story is no longer real in your mind. And you feel disappointed because none of the story's buildup paid off in the end.

Unless you're some kind of schizo, you know the story you're being told isn't real. But you still engage with it as if it were. That's the contract made between storyteller and reader/viewer/player: for the duration of playing the game, reading the book, watching the movie, you pretend that the story is real. You enjoy the sights, the characters, the plot twists, the humor that results from quirky characters interacting with each other. You're having fun.

But then, when the author is supposed to give you a satisfying ending for all the plot threads he had constructed up to that point, he instead reminds you that none of this was real so it doesn't matter anyway.
And in doing so, he breaks the trust you put into him to tell a compelling story. He ruins his own work through his cleverness (which isn't actually that clever, because you knew all along this isn't real).

The ending of MI 2 is not that either. Saying that everything that happened in the two games had been just imagination would be stupid. But that isn't what the ending is doing. The game foreshadows that something strange is going on. In particular I remember there were tunnels and whatnot that were completely out of place. The ending showing that Chuckie is still somehow Le Chuck and that Elaine is still around clearly show that is not what it was aiming for.

But likewise it is stupid to retcon the whole thing into some kind of spell or whatever (sorry, I've never actually played MI 3). The thing completely ignores the foreshadowing and turns the whole event into something rather prosaic. The whole point of hoping for Ron's version of the game was that, at least for me, I hoped he had an actual idea of how to give those things a half-way decent pay off.

Of course. I always found the "it was just two kids playing a game!" explanation stupid because it completely ignores Chucky's glowing eyes and Elaine remaining hanging over the hole.

But the new game is exactly like that. I watched the ending and it's literally Guybrush telling his son a story and explaining the non-ending away with stupid excuses.

But it's so meta. It's deep man... it makes you THINK!!! Like no one has ever thought about a game before! It's totally not a tired rehash of the last game in what was the most obvious way. Not having a climax is COOOL!!!!! It can be about whatever you want. And because I left it so vague the fanbase can do all the real work about meaning for me! It's just an old game after all, gotta pay them bills.

What is it about writers that makes us want to sniff our own farts?

 

[Brancaleone]

And because I left it so vague the fanbase can do all the real work about meaning for me!

A bit like most of contemporary art. The 'artist' provides a gimmick, and the viewer provides the content.

 

[Darth Slaughter]

Finished it. It was a fantastic game. Not shocked at the usual codexian attitude of deciding a game guilty before it even had an opportunity to speak for itself. I was skeptical and the final result totally convinced me.

Also funny to see that some people are mad at the ending which just flat out says again what happened in Monkey 2 for those who refused to see it. It took balls to reconfirm it and was a nice gesture for the fans.

The retcon was CMI. Not this game.

I agree in part. The ending of 2 and the beginning of return of monkey are two different situations. In 2, it is guybrush. In return, it is guybrush Threepjunior, his son, reenacting the old guybrush stories. Ron just did a prank this time. You see that when gubrush is already married in Return, meaning it at least takes Curse into account.

In Return, some rare instances of dialogs mention Morgan Lefay. So it's set after Tales chronologically.

It is a direct sequel to MI2 only thematically.

Oh yes. I mentioned before it's set after tales. Thing is I can't remember Escape, but Herman Toothroot in that game was changed into Governor marley's father. And comes return he is Herman again. I don't know if he kept being herman by the end of escape.

 

[bionicman]

I see codex is seething over another children's game, touch some grass losers!

 

[Venser]

 

[Fatberg Slim]

LOL based LeChuck literally murdering alphabet people...

 

[The BRM]

She loves the art? Bleh, it's awful.

Also saying the puzzles were good blows my mind, they were ok, at best. Very little creativity on them at all.

Nostalgia is a hell of a drug. Game is worse than most of its prequels in every single way and people act like it's the second coming.

But if you look at the reviews, it is all about the nostalgia. She even mentions a dopamine rush from being on Melee again.

 

[Silentstorm]

Never was a fan of meta endings, but this isn't as bad as Thimbleweed Park's ending, i know some people find it genius or great, some just because it explains modern elements in the world, but personally, i kinda like the idea of a silly pirate world that has modern things...being just that, at least the endings do give some hints that this can also be the case, Guybrush in one ending even tells people to choose what they want or believe.

Personally, i think following Tale's ending and facing down the Voodoo Lady as the new threat would have been more fun, but that doesn't get mentioned, not even in any of the endings, just saying, LeChuck is great...but Voodoo Lady is clearly quite powerful herself and mysterious, she knows and can do a lot while being smart and scheming...and seeing her getting annoyed by Guybrush and others screwing her plans through wacky shenanigans would have been fun.

Maybe for the next game?

 

[Alex]

LOL based LeChuck literally murdering alphabet people...

View attachment 28592

Yeah, until you realise he is using his pronouns...

 

[The BRM]

Never was a fan of meta endings, but this isn't as bad as Thimbleweed Park's ending, i know some people find it genius or great, some just because it explains modern elements in the world, but personally, i kinda like the idea of a silly pirate world that has modern things...being just that, at least the endings do give some hints that this can also be the case, Guybrush in one ending even tells people to choose what they want or believe.

Personally, i think following Tale's ending and facing down the Voodoo Lady as the new threat would have been more fun, but that doesn't get mentioned, not even in any of the endings, just saying, LeChuck is great...but Voodoo Lady is clearly quite powerful herself and mysterious, she knows and can do a lot while being smart and scheming...and seeing her getting annoyed by Guybrush and others screwing her plans through wacky shenanigans would have been fun.

Maybe for the next game?

Just keep Ron away from it.

Kinda want to play Thimbleweed Park but now this game has me scared to try it after I heard the endings sucked.

As for the silly world with modern things. I always thought, even if it was in some kid's head that ever definitively showing that would be a mistake. When you keep the weird bits, the occasionally out of character pirates, the service tunnels, the neon lights and all that jazz, you keep the world ambiguous. It works either way. When you show the world as an escape room, even if you hint that it isn't real, you miss the point IMO, which I get, is ballsy to say to the writer and creator of a series. But hey, if the guy who wrote Last of Us doesn't understand his characters after a few years, why should Ron Gilbert after 30?

 

[ADULF HITLOR FAN KLUB]

 

[Derringer]

I am getting the feeling that RTMI is the first experiment in games with writing and 'jokes' being entirely AI-made.

I'm getting the feeling that at this poit AI could do a better job on writing and jokes. If AI could design puzzles that would be a clear incline.

That's possibly what they're pushing unironically, not including the retards that developed this.

 

[Darkozric]

That's possibly what they're pushing unironically, not including the retards that developed this.

A dexer posted in a thread (don't remember where) few AI generated texts, they were sort of funny but in a black humor kind of sense.

 

[catfood]

https://www.eurogamer.net/fans-think-lucasfilm-games-is-teasing-a-maniac-mansion-return

Fans think Lucasfilm Games is teasing a Maniac Mansion return​

Return to Monkey Island has just come out, and the reception to it has been overwhelmingly positive. This reception has, of course, not been missed by those at Lucasfilm Games, or more specifically, Craig Derrick who worked with Ron Gilbert and co to get the game released.

Now, Derrick has shared his delight at all the positive feedback for Return to Monkey Island in a heartfelt Twitter thread.

This alone is nice but not especially newsworthy. However, at the end of his thread, Derrick wrote some simple words that have caught the world's eye: "I'll be standing by when it's time to go BACK TO THE MANSION!"

Many have now surmised that the mansion Derrick is referring to is that of Maniac Mansion, Lucasfilms' first self-published game from 1987.

This game was designed by Gary Winnick and a certain Ron Gilbert, and saw players solving various puzzles as they made their way through the mansion of the fictional Edison family.



While this tweet alone may not be enough to conclude that Derrick was indeed teasing a revival of the point and click adventure, others have pointed out that he similarly tweeted about his desire to return to the mansion back in August.

Again, with a confident use of capitals, Derrick tweeted: "I know that I must... GO BACK TO THE MANSION!" Accompanying this tweet was a trailer for the 1989 EGA enhanced version of Maniac Mansion.

Can't wait to play as a diverse cast of commiefornian zoomers.

 

[Alex]

Hi! My name's Guybrush Threepwood, and I want to be a pedophile!

 

[Atlantico]

"honour"
ofc it's a e*ropeon

Canadian.

 

[ELEXmakesMeHard]

Hi! My name's Guybrush Threepwood, and I want to be a pedophile!

I began imagining what the Three Trials would be, but had to stop myself.

 

[Atlantico]

I would say that a genre that fails to produce any "gems" for over 10 years is, actually, dead in a quite concrete way.

When I played the Secret of Monkey Island for the first time, it was in 1994 and I had not seen anything like it. I played through it in a couple of days, and I remember how funny it was and many times I laughed out loud. I think once I actually cried with laughter.

What I didn't realize at the time, but has become quite clear to me, is that everything that made Monkey Island so memorable and so funny was the cathartic release of annoyance over everything that was stupid, silly, illogical and unfair in all the graphic adventure games that came before. Monkey Island was the meta-adventure game and at the time it was hilarious.

It subverted our expectations. It also killed the genre.

For better or worse, everything that came before it was now stupid and everything that came after could not fall into the same trappings as the older titles in fear of being deemed obsolete and irrelevant.

Monkey Island pissed in the well, and it was sincerely funny when it happened because adventure games had been so universally obtuse and frustrating and humorless, but that can't be repeated. MI2 didn't even try, it is such a straightforward adventure game that nothing in it is memorable except the ending, which again, subverted our expectations.

That's the key to Ron Gilbert, he's the Rian Johnson of adventure games. His one claim to fame was to subvert expectations at the right time, with the right people. He is sad to say, a one trick pony who has nothing to say, he never did have anything to say — except to deride (correctly tbh) earlier adventure games and to subvert our expectations. He was always "too cool" for mere adventure games anyway, as he has insinuated before.

The art of Monkey Island by Mark Ferrari and Steve Purcell lifted the game far above its simplistic subversive origin and the music by Michael Land elevates the entire experience far higher than it probably was ever envisioned by the likes of Ron Gilbert. But make no mistake, this sugar coated poisoned pill is what killed the adventure game genre as a mainstream thing. It has and always will have its fans, but Monkey Island is what did it in.

Replaying Monkey Island today, the original EGA or VGA game, is a pleasure visually and audibly — but it is terrible, subversive, SJW garbage. It has everything from Strong Independent Woman, to Strong Independent Woman of Color, it makes the White Cis Male protagonist to be a dumb loser and every single male character runs the gamut from being a moron to a rapist. I am not at all surprised that Ron Gilber's latest game finds an audience with Ars Technica readers, because that's always been his home-port so to speak.

 

[El Presidente]

LOL based LeChuck literally murdering alphabet people...

View attachment 28592

Their throat? Woah, how many did he cut?

kek. The simple truth is, no liberal developer in this day and age will make a game free of ideology.

 

[Silentstorm]

Was Monkey Island that big of a hit?

I had the feeling that LucasArts games were kinda flops and it was more that the people in charge let the studio do some art projects while working on Star Wars or more profitable games, Sierra ruled over LucasArts in terms of sales and they would even mock LucasArts in their own games at points, with the idea that LucasArts had way less ways to put yourself in an unwinnable state or die made them casual games or not even games at all, one Space Quest game even outright says that Loom wasn't a game.

I don't think it sold enough for people to care about the subversions, it was just people over time getting tired of the puzzles and the Sierra style, and when LucasArts got some attention, many people still felt the puzzles were a bit too obtuse and then the adventure genre went into a period where there were games being made, but games journalism didn't acknowledge it and only now are people talking about the genre again.

In fairness, it helps that the Sierra standard is gone, people can accept hard games...but the Sierra style in combination with this genre is one that really really doesn't connect with the mainstream, even Sierra tried to avoid unwinnable states or so many deaths by their end.

 

[The BRM]

Was Monkey Island that big of a hit?

I had the feeling that LucasArts games were kinda flops and it was more that the people in charge let the studio do some art projects while working on Star Wars or more profitable games, Sierra ruled over LucasArts in terms of sales and they would even mock LucasArts in their own games at points, with the idea that LucasArts had way less ways to put yourself in an unwinnable state or die made them casual games or not even games at all, one Space Quest game even outright says that Loom wasn't a game.

I don't think it sold enough for people to care about the subversions, it was just people over time getting tired of the puzzles and the Sierra style, and when LucasArts got some attention, many people still felt the puzzles were a bit too obtuse and then the adventure genre went into a period where there were games being made, but games journalism didn't acknowledge it and only now are people talking about the genre again.

In fairness, it helps that the Sierra standard is gone, people can accept hard games...but the Sierra style in combination with this genre is one that really really doesn't connect with the mainstream, even Sierra tried to avoid unwinnable states or so many deaths by their end.

It was a big hit over time. But it spread via word of mouth, pack ins with CD-Roms, and several of the Lucasfilm Archive collections. That is how I first played it. Sierra was more popular in the US, but Lucasfilm became critical darlings and seemed to get more and more popular as Sierra had several series fall into obscurity. Part of that is the natural way that Adventure game really were of a time and place, but part of it was that LucasArts games were just better, and you could see Sierra emulating them by the time Gabriel Knight hit. And Curse of Monkey Island was mind blowing at release.

I would say that a genre that fails to produce any "gems" for over 10 years is, actually, dead in a quite concrete way.

When I played the Secret of Monkey Island for the first time, it was in 1994 and I had not seen anything like it. I played through it in a couple of days, and I remember how funny it was and many times I laughed out loud. I think once I actually cried with laughter.

What I didn't realize at the time, but has become quite clear to me, is that everything that made Monkey Island so memorable and so funny was the cathartic release of annoyance over everything that was stupid, silly, illogical and unfair in all the graphic adventure games that came before. Monkey Island was the meta-adventure game and at the time it was hilarious.

It subverted our expectations. It also killed the genre.

For better or worse, everything that came before it was now stupid and everything that came after could not fall into the same trappings as the older titles in fear of being deemed obsolete and irrelevant.

Monkey Island pissed in the well, and it was sincerely funny when it happened because adventure games had been so universally obtuse and frustrating and humorless, but that can't be repeated. MI2 didn't even try, it is such a straightforward adventure game that nothing in it is memorable except the ending, which again, subverted our expectations.

That's the key to Ron Gilbert, he's the Rian Johnson of adventure games. His one claim to fame was to subvert expectations at the right time, with the right people. He is sad to say, a one trick pony who has nothing to say, he never did have anything to say — except to deride (correctly tbh) earlier adventure games and to subvert our expectations. He was always "too cool" for mere adventure games anyway, as he has insinuated before.

The art of Monkey Island by Mark Ferrari and Steve Purcell lifted the game far above its simplistic subversive origin and the music by Michael Land elevates the entire experience far higher than it probably was ever envisioned by the likes of Ron Gilbert. But make no mistake, this sugar coated poisoned pill is what killed the adventure game genre as a mainstream thing. It has and always will have its fans, but Monkey Island is what did it in.

Replaying Monkey Island today, the original EGA or VGA game, is a pleasure visually and audibly — but it is terrible, subversive, SJW garbage. It has everything from Strong Independent Woman, to Strong Independent Woman of Color, it makes the White Cis Male protagonist to be a dumb loser and every single male character runs the gamut from being a moron to a rapist. I am not at all surprised that Ron Gilber's latest game finds an audience with Ars Technica readers, because that's always been his home-port so to speak.

Don't completely agree with it being SJW nonsense back then, or that Ron Gilbert is a one trick pony exactly. He is actually a fairly brilliant designer of actual games, he's just not a very strong writer. Gilbert created SCUMM, which was mind blowing at the time, and things he pioneered like dialog trees are still used in games today. But he was part of a team. Maniac Mansion was incredible for the time, but compare it to MI, and it is night and day, not just due to the subversion, which MM started, but because the writing from Grossman and Schafer elevated it immensely.

Also back then, having a dorky hero was the style at the time. Leisure Suit Larry, Roger Wilco, and the like. Zak McKracken was a parody type character as well though took itself seriously. We were also in the middle of Married with Children being huge and the world was in the middle of Bart-mania via the Simpsons. Having a likable doofus as a hero was fun and relatively new. Having the damsel not be a damsel, or the sword master be a woman was a cool little trope subversion at the time as well.

 

[Atlantico]

Part of that is the natural way that Adventure game really were of a time and place, but part of it was that LucasArts games were just better, and you could see Sierra emulating them by the time Gabriel Knight hit. And Curse of Monkey Island was mind blowing at release.

Yes, though the wave of decline in the wake of the Secret of Monkey Island was unstoppable.

Curse of Monkey Island was a valiant attempt at a serious adventure game and a damn good attempt, but the damage was done.

Adventure games had become a trope, a meme — a joke — thanks to the Secret of Monkey Island. Adventure games would become niche because the mainstream zeitgeist turned against them because of the subversion of the Secret of Monkey Island.

Don't completely agree with it being SJW nonsense back then

I didn't see it that way back then, I'm looking at it now and I can't help but cringe, knowing what was to follow.

All female characters in the Secret of Monkey Island are smart, gifted, powerful and/or talented.
All male characters in the Secret of Monkey Island are stupid, cheating, bullying and/or rapists.

One of the major subversions is that the Sword Master of Melee Island is a black woman and you are beneath her contempt. The governor is a woman and the main antagonist is a man.

You can go through the entire character roster in the game and it never fails. From the loud, stupid and patronizing Pirate leaders, to the wise black voodoo woman, it's one long SJW trope.