Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[RaggleFraggle]

it's literally just as simple as people preferring worldbuilding (that they can fuck around with, alter, theorize over, etc.) over non-worldbuilding, no matter how shit the worldbuilding is.

That is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard and I have heard tons of stupid shit. Requiem does have tons of worldbuilding and they would know that if they read the books. Onyx wrote an entire series of “Dark Eras” books exploring different historical periods, like the Roman Empire, Sumer, Atlantis and Irem.

The Roman Empire was ruled by the Juli clan who claimed descent from Romulus and Remus, who made a deal with owl demons to found the Juli, who exterminated another clan only known as Traditories. Sumer was ruled by werewolf god-kings who assassinated an even older werewolf god after he was poisoned by a spider goddess, which split reality in half. Atlantis was ruled by wizards blessed by dragons, who built a literal stairway to heaven that exploded and punched a hole to the warp. Irem was ruled by mummies, who warred with the werewolves and wizards. And that’s just before recorded history. There’s also the Cult of Seth rebelling against Akhenaton, Taskforce Valkyrie uncovering a cabal of three-eyed hermaphrodite nazi wizards, Cheiron Group cutting up magical creatures for drugs, the Tremere Liches going around eating souls, and that’s just off the top of my heading remembering stuff I read over a decade ago. The books are chock full of worldbuilding.

Where did you ever get the factually wrong impression that it didn’t have worldbuilding? It has dozens and dozens of books’ worth of worldbuilding.

 

[ColaWerewolf]

Star Trek worldbuilding more popular than The Orville or Babylon 5

I disagree with this one, at least where Babylon 5 is concerned. It has a much better world building than the mess that Star Trek has become over the years!

I don't mean quality but rather popularity and wider appeal. The more expansive the worldbuilding is the more dissemination power it has among the public. And even though we might fool ourselves otherwise, we're instinctively more interested in what's popular and relevant with our contemporaries.

 

[NecroLord]

it's literally just as simple as people preferring worldbuilding (that they can fuck around with, alter, theorize over, etc.) over non-worldbuilding, no matter how shit the worldbuilding is.

That is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard and I have heard tons of stupid shit. Requiem does have tons of worldbuilding and they would know that if they read the books. Onyx wrote an entire series of “Dark Eras” books exploring different historical periods, like the Roman Empire, Sumer, Atlantis and Irem.

The Roman Empire was ruled by the Juli clan who claimed descent from Romulus and Remus, who made a deal with owl demons to found the Juli, who exterminated another clan only known as Traditories. Sumer was ruled by werewolf god-kings who assassinated an even older werewolf god after he was poisoned by a spider goddess, which split reality in half. Atlantis was ruled by wizards blessed by dragons, who built a literal stairway to heaven that exploded and punched a hole to the warp. Irem was ruled by mummies, who warred with the werewolves and wizards. And that’s just before recorded history. There’s also the Cult of Seth rebelling against Akhenaton, Taskforce Valkyrie uncovering a cabal of three-eyed hermaphrodite nazi wizards, Cheiron Group cutting up magical creatures for drugs, the Tremere Liches going around eating souls, and that’s just off the top of my heading remembering stuff I read over a decade ago. The books are chock full of worldbuilding.

Where did you ever get the factually wrong impression that it didn’t have worldbuilding? It has dozens and dozens of books’ worth of worldbuilding.

I liked the mystery surrounding Carthage and its destruction by the Ventrue Rome.
The Brujah claimed it was a second Enoch where kine and kindred coexisted, but other sources claim that it was a hellish den of Baali diabolists doing truly foul and evil things to the kine and that Carthage was utterly corrupt and had to be destroyed.
Either way, the modern Brujah are trash. Dark Ages Brujah had some nobility and were warrior and scholars.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

And even though we might fool ourselves otherwise, we're instinctively more interested in what's popular and relevant with our contemporaries.

I feel the opposite. Things that are popular instinctively turn me off. I’m burnt out on all the settings you list because I feel they’ve been written into corners, driven into the ground, oversaturated, etc.

I prefer the old dead and discarded settings over the popular zombified franchises. They have the space to be creative.

The more expansive the worldbuilding is the more dissemination power it has among the public.

To be entirely candid, I think the concept of lore is stupid and lorefags are an outlier. Nerd discourse has given disproportionate attention to lore that misunderstands how fandoms actually develop.

Lore is just irrelevant factoids. Audiences don’t connect with irrelevant factoids, they connect with characters. Nobody would care about Middle Earth if it wasn’t for Frodo and Aragorn earning our investment.

Lore is, at best, a light seasoning on the meat that is plot and characters (or gameplay for games). No franchise has achieved success by spewing out lore. They’ve achieved success by telling stories about characters, or having good gameplay.

This cult of lore, and it is a cult, is imo a key reason why modern pop culture and fandom sucks so much. People have forgotten how to create and what parts of creation are important.

EDIT:
Bloodlines is what put the IP on the map, not lore. People like Jeanette and Troika’s quirky writing. That’s what drew fans in and kept them in. Enough to justify Paradox’s buyout.

White Wolf cancelled the IP in 2004 because it wasn’t selling anymore and one of the reasons given was because the excessive irrelevant lore made it too intimidating for new players to get into. The reboot Requiem was a huge financial success btw, sitting in the top 5 on the ICv2 for several years straight. V5 decapitated the lore and turned itself into what most consider an inferior version of Requiem, and it reached top 5 on the ICv2.

So, it seems pretty clear here that lore is not the reason for financial success. What seemingly attracts customers and keeps them engaged are fun characters like Jeanette and fun gameplay like street level superheroes.

 

[Skinwalker]

The stupid metaplot in VtM had gotten wildly out of control. Every historical figure was a vampire/ghost/werewolf/mage/whatever, they changed the status quo unnecessarily (what's the point of having Gangrel leave the Camarilla? Why nuke clan Ravnos?), there was the True Black Hand fiasco, and the whole thing was a mish-mash of different authors shoving their ideas, instead of merely suggesting them.

Players were free to ignore any of the parts they didn't like, but I guess most of them were too midwitted to just make an executive decision and say "no, we're not doing the mandatory pre-Final Nights status quo shakeup. no, there's no such thing as "dhampyres". no, the Technocracy did not nuke an antediluvian. no, Tremere did not instantly annihilate their entire antitribu."

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Yeah, so what were people expecting White Wolf to do? The metaplot/lore bloat was untenable. A reboot like Requiem or V5 was inevitable.

 

[Skinwalker]

Yeah, so what were people expecting White Wolf to do?

Do better.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Yeah, so what were people expecting White Wolf to do?

Do better.

If the ICv2 is any indication, they did so financially. Despite being controversial reboots, both Requiem and V5 are top 5 sellers for their respective print runs.

 

[NecroLord]

Wesp5
Another question:
Was Dementation 3: "Vision of Death" always that powerful?
My last Malkavian run I used it and it was crazy powerful, being able to stun most enemies and even bosses with it.

Pretty cool.

 

[ColaWerewolf]

Lore is just irrelevant factoids. Audiences don’t connect with irrelevant factoids, they connect with characters. Nobody would care about Middle Earth if it wasn’t for Frodo and Aragorn earning our investment.

Factoids are important and arguably what makes the characters interesting to wider appeal. Nobody cares about Aragorn's morality or his economic policies for Middle Earth, they care about the fact that he is this ancient royal blood handsome demihuman who has an army of ghosts obeying him. That's what he's remembered by. That's why he's not just a regular dude with a good head on his shoulder. No, he's special within the lore and worldbuilding of Tolkien.

Nobody would care about Anakin's toxic love problems or Luke's coming-of-age adventure if they were just regular dudes. No, they're important because they're a Jedi and a Sith. These empty make-believe factoids is what spawn generational franchises, not the characters' personalities.

Edit: goes without saying but Frodo is the same. It's not his personality that's compelling, it's his burdens and tribulations with an evil ring that's vital to the Tolkien metaplot.

 

[Wesp5]

Was Dementation 3: "Vision of Death" always that powerful?

I increased the stun duration for supernaturals by 3 seconds, so the particles can play out, but that was it.
P.S.: I just rechecked and you might be up to something, as enemies get stunned for 30 seconds although the file says 3 or 6 seconds! I'll see if I can fix that...

 

[Skinwalker]

they care about the fact that he is this ancient royal blood handsome demihuman

Aragorn is described as fairly scruffy-looking in the books.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

These empty make-believe factoids is what spawn generational franchises, not the characters' personalities.

Please tell me you’re trolling, because this is obviously nonsense.

Two prominent counterexamples off the top of my head: Batman and Superman. Their whole shticks are their morals: Batman’s technical pacifism and Superman’s boy scout attitude. They wouldn’t be compelling otherwise.

A key reason why people hate a lot of modern entries in these franchises is because they butcher the personalities of well established characters. A key reason why people hate Rings of Power and Last Jedi is because those butcher the personalities of Galadriel and Luke.

Audiences obviously care about the personalities of the characters. It’s one of the basic facets of being human.

 

[Skinwalker]

Their whole shticks are their morals: Batman’s technical pacifism

Except, Batman works better when he's not obsessed with not killing anyone. E.g. the Christopher Nolan Batman who lets Qui-Gon Jin die on the crashing train is far more sympathetic than the insufferable demented twat of the Arkham video game series who constantly saves mass murderers whom he knows will kill innocents again, and mourns the Joker's death after he failed to prevent it.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Their whole shticks are their morals: Batman’s technical pacifism

Except, Batman works better when he's not obsessed with not killing anyone. E.g. the Christopher Nolan Batman who lets Qui-Gon Jin die on the crashing train is far more sympathetic than the insufferable demented twat of the Arkham video game series who constantly saves mass murderers whom he knows will kill innocents again, and mourns the Joker's death after he failed to prevent it.

You’re proving my point here. Audiences do care about character personalities, not simply superpowers. The superpowers are a tool, while the main appeal is how they use it based on their personalities.

 

[ColaWerewolf]

Of course the audience cares about the personalities, they care in-so-much as that the characters are believable or relatable to themselves. But it doesn't change the fact that it's the circumstances derived from the worldbuilding that elevates these characters to relevance. I haven't watched the nu-LoTR show so I won't comment too much on that, but Luke is a prime example of how it's actually the ideal of the Jedi, presented in Return of the Jedi, which spurs the criticism for the sequel presentation.

It was established that Luke is a Jedi, Jedi are supposed to be these wizened, dependable wizard-warriors. Luke in the Sequels was still a good guy, the only difference was that he wasn't championing the Jedi ideals and actions anymore. Rey presented him with his glowstick, and he just threw it away, and the audience was mortified. How could a Jedi throw away his lightsaber like that? This isn't their Luke. Because their Luke is a Jedi, not a depressed hermit.

I wouldn't be surprised if nu-Galadriel exhibits a similar issue where instead of being this wise, ephemeral elf-queen of 1000 years old as established in Tolkien lore, she's instead shown as rather banal and commonplace among humans. Her morality and personality have nothing to do with it. She's just not presented as cool and detached as how Tolkien portrayed his elves.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

But it doesn't change the fact that it's the circumstances derived from the worldbuilding that elevates these characters to relevance.

Yeah, if you’re limiting your reference pool to epic fantasy where, by definition, the protagonists are epic heroes involved in epic events. You’re missing the forest for the leaves.

Plenty of famous stories are not epic fantasy. There are other genres. The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Romeo and Juliet, The Phantom of the Opera, Little Women, A Christmas Carol… these stories have been adapted countless times, and they’re all about muggles. Audiences care about these stories because of the character dynamics.

Stories need characters with personalities, regardless of genre, if they hope to succeed and be remembered. You can’t just paint faces on planks of wood, give them superpowers, and call it a day.

 

[ColaWerewolf]

Plenty of famous stories are not epic fantasy. There are other genres. The Hunchback of Notre Dame, Romeo and Juliet, The Phantom of the Opera, Little Women, A Christmas Carol… these stories have been adapted countless times, and they’re all about muggles. Audiences care about these stories because of the character dynamics.

And none of them spawned generational franchises. There's no Hunchback of Notre Dame MMORPG, CRPG, Extended Universe books, tabletop game, trading card game, action shooter game, platformer game, pachinko game, etc. No, what has all of those is objectively worse stories with more expansive worldbuilding like Star Wars.

Edit: Insult to injury, I'm almost certain that if you made a popularity poll on reddit asking which character is more popular, Hunchback of Notre Dame or Jar Jar Binks, I actually think Jar Jar Binks has a solid chance of winning purely due to the Darth Jar Jar memes which again is a result of worldbuilding fan theories.

 

[Modron]

And none of them spawned generational franchises.

It didn't? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunchback_of_Notre-Dame#Adaptations
https://www.mobygames.com/group/5688/hunchback-series/
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ps/918593-hunchback-of-notredame

 

[ColaWerewolf]

And none of them spawned generational franchises.

It didn't? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Hunchback_of_Notre-Dame#Adaptations
https://www.mobygames.com/group/5688/hunchback-series/
https://gamefaqs.gamespot.com/ps/918593-hunchback-of-notredame

It didn't.

You’re shifting the goalposts. I refuse to further engage with a disingenuous argument.

My argument was the same from the start and you even quoted it yourself.

The more expansive the worldbuilding is the more dissemination power it has among the public.

 

[Harthwain]

Two prominent counterexamples off the top of my head: Batman and Superman. Their whole shticks are their morals: Batman’s technical pacifism and Superman’s boy scout attitude. They wouldn’t be compelling otherwise.

It is not ALL about morals. That is too reductive take to be true. You have to take juxtaposition into consideration as well.

Batman is cool, because he is a rich guy by day and a crime fighting hero with cool tech toys by night. He is also a hero with a traumatic past, so you can go into darker places with him, narrative-wise. Superman has superpowers. He is also trying to hide his identity and fit in with the society, despite being pretty much a demi-god, because people would fear him otherwise.

A key reason why people hate a lot of modern entries in these franchises is because they butcher the personalities of well established characters. A key reason why people hate Rings of Power and Last Jedi is because those butcher the personalities of Galadriel and Luke.

Shitty writing is the doom of everything, no surprise here, but this can apply to both the characters and the lore, so this is not really a good example.

A better example would be Lord of the Rings by Peter Jackson: it changes some things from the books, but keeps many others, while adding some of its own for the sake of it being a movie (not all of the additions being good or even needed, mind you). People overwhelmingly liked it, because everybody could find something for himself there. So as long as you largely follow the spirit of whatever you're trying to emulate, you should be good.

 

[Wesp5]

People overwhelmingly liked it, because everybody could find something for himself there. So as long as you largely follow the spirit of whatever you're trying to emulate, you should be good.

Well, younger people liked it who hadn't read the books before. Jackson almost does the same things to Frodo and Gimli that Johnson does to Luke, like he destroys a large part of their character.
But back to Bloodlines, memorable characters were certainly a big part of why Bloodlines became a cult classic! The WOD served as a nice canvas, but the lore wasn't what made Bloodlines greatl!

 

[Sallow]

Fat Larry was the best character in VTMB and he provided zero lore or world-building.

Dang it... Just as I was typing this, it struck me... Did the garage mission have any hidden, deeper ties to Xiao??

 

[NecroLord]

Was Dementation 3: "Vision of Death" always that powerful?

I increased the stun duration for supernaturals by 3 seconds, so the particles can play out, but that was it.
P.S.: I just rechecked and you might be up to something, as enemies get stunned for 30 seconds although the file says 3 or 6 seconds! I'll see if I can fix that...

3 seconds is a bit low and not that useful.
I guess 6 seconds will make it powerful, but not completely broken.

 

[ColaWerewolf]

the lore wasn't what made Bloodlines greatl!

It wasn't the only thing. Dialogue, music, gritty atmosphere and tone certainly played a big factor to its success. But if the lore wasn't compelling then there would not have been so many Bloodlines players who went on to play Redemption after finishing Bloodlines. Planetvampire, the headquarters for the Bloodlines cult, would not have had an active Redemption playerbase.