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Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

Storyfag

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There's a metaplot and that's canon. :)
The metaplot is hot garbage for midwits. At my table, the Sabbat is still kickin' and there's no Gehenna War going on. Hell, the 2nd Inquisition is much smaller than in the metaplot. At Troika's table, Caine drives a cab in LA. It is basic GM/DM/Storyteller courtesy to appreciate when another does something cool with an RPG setting.
 

Wesp5

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The agent was perhaps necessary to get the outcome of "LaCroix gets blown up by the bomb" but why is that so important? There are also endings where he doesn't get blown up (Xiao, Strauss).

You overlook that Jack is involved. Caine may only have used the sarcophagus to test his children but Jack wanted to get rid of some enemies of the Anarchs at the same time and for that he needed the Fledgling.
 

NecroLord

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The agent was perhaps necessary to get the outcome of "LaCroix gets blown up by the bomb" but why is that so important? There are also endings where he doesn't get blown up (Xiao, Strauss).

You overlook that Jack is involved. Caine may only have used the sarcophagus to test his children but Jack wanted to get rid of some enemies of the Anarchs at the same time and for that he needed the Fledgling.
Jack also probably wanted to diablerize whoever was inside.
 

Storyfag

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The agent was perhaps necessary to get the outcome of "LaCroix gets blown up by the bomb" but why is that so important? There are also endings where he doesn't get blown up (Xiao, Strauss).

You overlook that Jack is involved. Caine may only have used the sarcophagus to test his children but Jack wanted to get rid of some enemies of the Anarchs at the same time and for that he needed the Fledgling.
Jack also probably wanted to diablerize whoever was inside.
I doubt that. Otherwise, Caine would not have found him intriguing.
 

Vincente

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There's a metaplot and that's canon.
1720756956612752.jpg
 

S.H.O.D.A.N.

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the concept doesn't even enter the brain of someone whose only experience with WoD is VTMB, there is no CANON - and if they're confused about the game based on what's just presented in the game, knowing CANON brings no greater clarity to their ability to evaluate the work on its merits

Denying the relevance of canon rings hollow, when the work derives the foundation of its own relevance from an advertised connection to said canon.

What merits Bloodlines, or in fact any adaptation has as a narrative, it generally borrows from canon, and if its original additions are confusing and poorly structured, where the canon is clear and coherent, that demerits it not only as an adaptation, but doubly so as an original work, as in addition to failing the higher virtue of attempting something new, it fails the lower virtue of merely copying as well.
 

The President

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Was Caine even really involved in the plot. He does comment he only recently met Jack. I figured he had the same relationship to Jack he has with the protagonist. I didn’t see him as the actual plotter, more of a voyeur if anything who takes a liking to the player character and Jack. Beckett and a few others comment they feel a strong presence in the air which they assume is the sarcophagus but is probably Caine.

I figured his sympathies lied with the anarchs on the outside chance the local anarch chapter could create a new Enoch.
 

Longes

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The whole struggle over the Ankaran Sarcophagus exists to test how modern vampires (be they Sabbat, Anarch, Camarilla, Elder or fledgeling) would react if their ancient forefathers returned.
None of this requires making an Extra Special vampire to serve as an errand runner.
Nothing about the plot of Bloodlines requires the MC to be Extra Special. Sure, we progress our skills quickly compared to the tabletop RPG, but it's a video game. That's how video games always worked. We never break the generational limits or manifest extra special powers or really do anything super duper vampiric that's crucial to the plot. And IMO, the plot is much more interesting if MC is just a random newbie vampire who happens to be mostly competent, than if the MC is the secret chosen one.
 

RaggleFraggle

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Bloodlines elevated the shitpile that is the World of Darkness tabletop
Don't worry, Bloodlines 2 will undo this grave mistake.
Good riddance. It should have died permanently back in 2004, but the cult success of Bloodlines is the only thing that saved it from vanishing into obscurity. Naturally, the dumb suits at Paradox had no idea why Troika was successful so they end up just prolonging the death throes. IPs are cheap. What's rare is good writing, or at least fun presentation. Bloodlines might not hold up to scrutiny and take a lot of liberties with canon (not that I care about that canon), but damn if Troika didn't capture something special.

There's a metaplot and that's canon.
1720756956612752.jpg
We all know that's hollow hypocritical bullshit. If that was true, then the cybercrybullies wouldn't have their knickers in a twist over the release of V3 in 1998, Requiem in 2004 and V5 in 2018. The fandom is a dumpster fire of toxicity.

I believe that you're better off making new IPs, not owned by flailing corporations, and coming at this with a fresh perspective. I currently have my eye on several interesting developing projects: Vampire Syndicate, A Vampyre Story 2, Nighthawks, and Blood of Dawnwalker. Unless you're an uncreative zombie, it would be quite easy to write your own IP by drawing upon the plethora of public domain resources that exist.
 

Wesp5

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Was Caine even really involved in the plot.

Yes, he was. In cut lines that I restored for the plus patch ending with Jack sitting on the hill, Jack says the following when Caine comes up to him: "Hey, it happened just like you said. They never even knew what hit 'em. Threw that sarcophagus out there and they just tore each other up tryin' to get to it." Which kind of implies that Caine was aware that his children would be fighting each other. Maybe he sounds positive towards the Anarch movement during the taxi ride, because the Anarch's were the only faction not trying to get the sarcophagus. Which on the other hand might have happened because Jack gave his faction a tip that they shouldn't get involved...
 

Skinwalker

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It's well within his power to single-handedly wipe out the Camarilla, but he doesn't do this because...?
Because he'd rather create a brand new vampire and see if he will correct the millennia of dysfunction among Caine's brood. Which he (the protagonist) does at the scale of a single metropolis in the first few nights of his existence, and then goes off into the Final Nights to who knows what kind of future, depending on the ending.

Also, the delicious irony of LaCroix desperately chasing after a sarcophagus that never had anything but an ordinary mummy and now has a bomb, while an actual super low-generation kindred is standing right in front of him and gets treated as an errand boy sent on suicide missions. It's brilliant.
 

DannyRope

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We never break the generational limits
We do. Andrei all but spells it out to the MC, and LaCroix' Dominate ceases to work on the MC at some point, which is only possible if the MCs Generation became lower than that of LaCroix.

I never bought into the theory of the Fledgling being of 8th Generation, I always assumed that we just had the bigger bloodpool for gameplay reasons (i.e. to make the game more fun). Being of lower Generation than the Kindred using the Dominate Discipline makes said Discipline simply not work on you. And Lacroix can and will Dominate the Fledgling if he refuses to do the suicide missions. The Fledgling in the game can only feed on mortals and Ghouls, not other Kindred which means that the Fledgling never lowers their Generation through Diablerie (there's a mod in which you can Diablerize Kindred but not in the base game). Dominate can be resisted with Willpower which is a stat that is conveniently left out of the Bloodlines' Character Sheet.

From what I remember the advocates of the Fledgling lowering their Generation theory claim that it's Caine himself who uses his powers to lower the Generation of the protagonist through the game. I admit that I don't know if lowering the Generation of other Kindred being among his vast and tremendous powers is mentioned in some book. It doesn't matter either way, Caine might as well be a demigod so he can pretty much what the Storyteller wants him to do.

However, I'm partial to the Occam's Razor explanation of the Fledgling getting stronger just by virtue of surviving all the challenges that they face in the game and also increasing their Willpower through the game to the point that Lacroix can no longer Dominate them in the end. Very appropriate for a character that just plainly refuse to die to develop an iron will.

I think that the Fledgling has a total unremarkable Generation of 13th or 12th as most Vampires in the modern times have. The Fledgling simply becomes more powerful the same way other RPG protagonists do: by surviving and getting experience.
 

DannyRope

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It does give me pause. But what is he going to say? By the time you face Andrei for the second and last time, the Fledgling is a fully realized certified badass motherfucker/bitch. You can easily have all your Clan Disciplines max out by that point in the game. "Yeah, Andrei, you can bet your B-Movie Monster ass that my blood is more potent now".

But paraphrasing the wisest line that comes out the Fledgling's lips: "I really don't know". You could be correct after all.
 

RaggleFraggle

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I admit that I don't know if lowering the Generation of other Kindred being among his vast and tremendous powers is mentioned in some book. It doesn't matter either way, Caine might as well be a demigod so he can pretty much what the Storyteller wants him to do.
In one of the Gehenna scenario endings, the PCs are cured of the curse of generation as a gift from God for surviving. So it is a thing that has been established as possible, according to some writers.

We know Troika took liberties with the holy canon. Maybe it's an alternate universe where vampires have blood potency instead of generations, as generation is never actually mentioned/explained in the game. As others have pointed out before, the average generation would tend to increase over time until vampires are extinct. The global human population exploded within the past two centuries, so you would expect that the number of vampires likewise exploded and there was a scramble for younger vampires to acquire new territories in the colonies and establish themselves outside the yoke of their elders. If vampires didn't have blood potency instead of generation, then this would result in thinbloods becoming the majority of vampires by the time Bloodlines occurs.
 

DannyRope

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We know Troika took liberties with the holy canon. Maybe it's an alternate universe where vampires have blood potency instead of generations, as generation is never actually mentioned/explained in the game.

This is incorrect, if you ask Bertram Tung about Thin Bloods he does mention Generation by name and explain how it works. It's optional dialogue tho, so it can be missed.

Or because LaCroix is losing his shit and his confidence, and is now losing the dice rolls to dominate us

Yeah, alongside with the protagonist becoming more willful, this is what I'm inclined to believe that happens at the end of the game.
 

Ol' Willy

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I never bought into the theory of the Fledgling being of 8th Generation, I always assumed that we just had the bigger bloodpool for gameplay reasons (i.e. to make the game more fun).
I think the VTM:B protagonist is of the second generation.
Caine is the actual sire of MC and the entire plot of the game is about him testing his new protege

This also explains Caine's observation and non-involvement

:cool:
 

Roguey

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Also, he clearly favors the Anarch cause in his dialogue.
It's well within his power to single-handedly wipe out the Camarilla, but he doesn't do this because...?
Because he is tired of ruling and of judging. He made that mistake before, but he is doing it again: leaving it to his Childer to decide their fate. He says it outright, though, admittedly, you get the full picture only after a non-Malk and Malk playthrough.

How is he leaving it to others to decide their fate when he's putting his thumb on the scale to make a specific outcome more likely?

The agent was perhaps necessary to get the outcome of "LaCroix gets blown up by the bomb" but why is that so important? There are also endings where he doesn't get blown up (Xiao, Strauss).

You overlook that Jack is involved. Caine may only have used the sarcophagus to test his children but Jack wanted to get rid of some enemies of the Anarchs at the same time and for that he needed the Fledgling.

What's his motivation in working with this specific vampire over all others?

Nothing about the plot of Bloodlines requires the MC to be Extra Special. Sure, we progress our skills quickly compared to the tabletop RPG, but it's a video game. That's how video games always worked. We never break the generational limits or manifest extra special powers or really do anything super duper vampiric that's crucial to the plot. And IMO, the plot is much more interesting if MC is just a random newbie vampire who happens to be mostly competent, than if the MC is the secret chosen one.

A fledgeling would absolutely die in the situations LaCroix sends you into, especially in the latter part of the game. And it's not speculation because a character in the game literally says "Your blood is a lot stronger than it was in our first meeting, aren't you curious at all about that?"

LycgED0.jpg

KtfeuAa.jpg

g8e73Bn.jpg


(Turns out most players are not).
 

Roguey

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Or because LaCroix is losing his shit and his confidence, and is now losing the dice rolls to dominate us
Domination in Bloodlines doesn't use dice rolls. It would be an absolutely cheat to make dice rolls affect an element of the plot when it's not an actual game mechanic.
 

RaggleFraggle

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This is incorrect, if you ask Bertram Tung about Thin Bloods he does mention Generation by name and explain how it works. It's optional dialogue tho, so it can be missed.
He explicitly calls it a "theory." As in, the characters don't have confirmation it's true. Since his clan's whole shtick is intel, then we can assume he's a reliable source on this. We don't see any convincing evidence that it is true, either, beyond paying lip service to the tabletop due to contractual obligations. The power and status of vampires strongly correlates with their age, with elders being those vampires who are at least 1-2 centuries old (this is younger than how it works in tabletop btw). If generation was real, then you would expect to see plenty of exceptions. Instead, whoever wrote the lore wrote generations to closely correlate with age in a way that is unbelievably neat and tidy. The population distribution of generations has barely changed between the year 1200 and the year 2000, which would make way more sense with blood potency instead.

Out of universe, I think generation is a stupid mechanic because the logic breaks down. I get the impression that the writers also think it's stupid and wished they'd used blood potency instead, what with their obsession with making all major NPCs all low generation as though trying to check off a mary sue litmus test and V5 codifying blood potency into the rules, but are too anal-retentive about the inconsistent sanctity of canon to retcon generation away. In my experience, plenty of fans who don't read the tabletop books seem unaware that it's even a rule. The lore is full of little nonsensical details like this one.
 

Roguey

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*thinbloods exist in the game and are hated*

"Is this generation stuff even real...?"
 

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