Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[Roguey]

Guys, the Bloodlines intro shows the PC embraced by the man/woman who seduces them, the subtitles referring to that character as Sire when they say "I wanna show you something." The vamp was dominated into embracing you by Cab Man, he wasn't there as a voyeur.

The lore is meant to be flexible by design.

And yet all V:tM licensed products follow the lore as set by White Wolf.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Thinbloods could exist without generations.

Indeed. If an already young/low potency vampire turns someone, to the point where their potency stat should be 0 or negative, then they'd be a thinblood. As I recall, Vampire: The Requiem introduces those at some point. I know they were in one of the later first edition books, but I never got into second edition but I heard they're in that too.

Fair enough. Yeah, even Skelter who is a true believer regarding Caine admits that he isn't sure if he's even real. I, personally, prefer the approach of Caine being mythical, and ditto the Antediluvians, instead of being confirmed to be the true origin of vampires. I like the story well enough but I love a mystery more.

I recall that a number of writers wanted to go this route, but the generation mechanic makes it untenable.

I didn't like very much V5 aside from the Hunger mechanic being more abstract than before and other few things. Graphic design-wise and illustration-wise is the uglier book to date too. If I ever decide to GM V:TM again I'll have to make a Frankenstein Monster of the bits that I like from different editions.

You might like this game then.

The lore is meant to be flexible by design.

And yet all V:tM licensed products follow the lore as set by White Wolf.

That's nonsense. White Wolf hasn't existed for a decade. They have no authority now. Paradox does. Their writers have retconned the lore so often that canon isn't worth the paper it's printed on. That's one of the reasons why I don't like the IP. If the writers can't make up their damn minds, then I'm not paying them money.

Requiem is a much better option for video games anyway, if you're not just hard rebooting a third time (and, for the record, I think letting Troika do their own ultimate universe hard reboot with complete creative control is the best idea). The five clans have a symmetrical discipline spread that doesn't need the bizarre workarounds you see in BL2 to make the clans more distinct (altho I think V5 discipline design would be great to backport into Requiem), and the covenants add their own magic on top of that. To say nothing of the bloodlines, joinable after character creation, adding yet more...

 

[Skinwalker]

And yet all V:tM licensed products follow the lore as set by White Wolf.

White Wolf set the lore to be flexible and encourages people to have fun with their concepts.

 

[Roguey]

That's nonsense. White Wolf hasn't existed for a decade. They have no authority now. Paradox does. Their writers have retconned the lore so often that canon isn't worth the paper it's printed on. That's one of the reasons why I don't like the IP. If the writers can't make up their damn minds, then I'm not paying them money.

"All V:tM licensed products follow the lore as set by the corporate entity that currently owns the IP that I referred to as White Wolf out of habit and convenience" does that suit you better.

People with their particular tastes come and go, but the corporate entity endures.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

And yet all V:tM licensed products follow the lore as set by White Wolf.

White Wolf set the lore to be flexible and encourages people to have fun with their concepts.

And they further emphasized this by publishing Vampire: The Requiem, which encourages this gameplay by having a looser setting. Naturally, the grognards hated it and still hate it to this day. That hypocrisy has never sat well with me.

People with their particular tastes come and go, but the corporate entity endures.

Exactly. The canon is a foundation of sand. It's not worth investing in.

 

[Roguey]

Exactly. The canon is a foundation of sand. It's not worth investing in.

Nevertheless, some people do and they're the biggest vampire game in town despite being lousy. The power of inertia.

 

[Storyfag]

We never break the generational limits

We do. Andrei all but spells it out to the MC, and LaCroix' Dominate ceases to work on the MC at some point, which is only possible if the MCs Generation became lower than that of LaCroix.

Or because LaCroix is losing his shit and his confidence, and is now losing the dice rolls to dominate us

I don't think 2nd edition Dominate worked like that?

 

[NecroLord]

We never break the generational limits

We do. Andrei all but spells it out to the MC, and LaCroix' Dominate ceases to work on the MC at some point, which is only possible if the MCs Generation became lower than that of LaCroix.

Or because LaCroix is losing his shit and his confidence, and is now losing the dice rolls to dominate us

I don't think 2nd edition Dominate worked like that?

Can also spend Willpower to resist it.
Personally, I prefer Presence.
Has the potential to be more powerful (and very useful), but you might inadvertently turn people into creepy stalkers seeking your attention and approval...

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Exactly. The canon is a foundation of sand. It's not worth investing in.

Nevertheless, some people do and they're the biggest vampire game in town despite being lousy. The power of inertia.

What other vampire games are there? As far as I know, nobody has tried seriously competing with them. At least until they entered an actually competitive market like video games, where they're getting their asses handed to them by indie games that haven't even been released yet.

 

[Roguey]

Exactly. The canon is a foundation of sand. It's not worth investing in.

Nevertheless, some people do and they're the biggest vampire game in town despite being lousy. The power of inertia.

What other vampire games are there? As far as I know, nobody has tried seriously competing with them. At least until they entered an actually competitive market like video games, where they're getting their asses handed to them by indie games that haven't even been released yet.

Here's a few I found in a few seconds
https://heartofthedeernicorn.com/product/thousand-year-old-vampire/?v=0b3b97fa6688
https://cmichpress.com/product/five-hundred-year-old-vampire/?gQT=1
https://www.exaltedfuneral.com/prod...nt=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&gQT=1

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Exactly. The canon is a foundation of sand. It's not worth investing in.

Nevertheless, some people do and they're the biggest vampire game in town despite being lousy. The power of inertia.

What other vampire games are there? As far as I know, nobody has tried seriously competing with them. At least until they entered an actually competitive market like video games, where they're getting their asses handed to them by indie games that haven't even been released yet.

Here's a few I found in a few seconds
https://heartofthedeernicorn.com/product/thousand-year-old-vampire/?v=0b3b97fa6688
https://cmichpress.com/product/five-hundred-year-old-vampire/?gQT=1
https://www.exaltedfuneral.com/prod...nt=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&gQT=1

Are those any good or just more throwaway indie crap?

 

[Ol' Willy]

If Caine was the one to Embrace the PC, then it would've made you a 2nd Generation Kindred, essentially on the same power level as the Antediluvians, hell, even more powerful in terms of abilities, how much blood you can spend in a turn, total blood pool, etc.

See what Liberal says about generations. They are a potential, and it takes time to fully develop the powers, which is really demonstrated in the game

I think Troika was laying groundwork for Bloodlines 2 as a high-level game where you play as a powerful vamp, but instead of fighting various bums and sewer creations like in the first game, you would be fighting actual and more powerful other vamps

 

[RaggleFraggle]

I think Troika was laying groundwork for Bloodlines 2 as a high-level game where you play as a powerful vamp, but instead of fighting various bums and sewer creations like in the first game, you would be fighting actual and more powerful other vamps

Like the Bloodlust Shadowhunter games? Those get pretty wild. In one of the tutorial levels you can recruit a floating medusa head to turn your enemies to stone. The writing is barely there, but the mechanics are amazing.

 

[ColaWerewolf]

And they further emphasized this by publishing Vampire: The Requiem, which encourages this gameplay by having a looser setting. Naturally, the grognards hated it and still hate it to this day. That hypocrisy has never sat well with me.

You always get hung up on this and it's an obvious eternal sore spot in the buttocks for you but it's literally just as simple as people preferring worldbuilding (that they can fuck around with, alter, theorize over, etc.) over non-worldbuilding, no matter how shit the worldbuilding is.
World of Warcraft worldbuilding more popular than Black Desert
Star Wars worldbuilding more popular than Rebel Moon
Star Trek worldbuilding more popular than The Orville or Babylon 5
WH40k worldbuilding more popular than Kings of War
Baldur's Gate worldbuilding more popular than Tyranny
Fallout worldbuilding more popular than The Outer Worlds
Marvel didn't start blowing up until they started sewing up all their heroes, continuities, and worlds together in the multiverse crap.

It's been proven time and time again that people just prefer more toys with lore on the back of their box than less toys.

 

[NecroLord]

Wesp5
I was wondering if you could change the Gangrel Protean warform back to the original model (which looks better than that werewolf-like crummy one).

 

[Ryzer]

Found out a bug while picking up the phone in the tatoo office. The phone is picked up by my character but after a few seconds disappears and teleports backs to its original socle.

Found out a crash while reaching and entering the weapons shop in Santa Monica. I don't know if this has been fixed by now or my version of community patch ( end of 2021) basic is too old.

 

[NecroLord]

Found out a bug while picking up the phone in the tatoo office. The phone is picked up by my character but after a few seconds disappears and teleports backs to its original socle.

Found out a crash while reaching and entering the weapons shop in Santa Monica. I don't know if this has been fixed by now or my version of community patch ( end of 2021) basic is too old.

Had it happen in older versions.
I think it's fixed in the newest one.

 

[Wesp5]

Star Trek worldbuilding more popular than The Orville or Babylon 5

I disagree with this one, at least where Babylon 5 is concerned. It has a much better world building than the mess that Star Trek has become over the years!

 

[Wesp5]

I was wondering if you could change the Gangrel Protean warform back to the original model (which looks better than that werewolf-like crummy one).

You can do that yourself: go to the Unofficial_Patch\models\character\monster\animalism_beastform folder, remove animalism_beastform.mdl, copy animalism_baastform.mdl and rename it to animalism_beastform.mdl.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

it's literally just as simple as people preferring worldbuilding (that they can fuck around with, alter, theorize over, etc.) over non-worldbuilding, no matter how shit the worldbuilding is.

That is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard and I have heard tons of stupid shit. Requiem does have tons of worldbuilding and they would know that if they read the books. Onyx wrote an entire series of “Dark Eras” books exploring different historical periods, like the Roman Empire, Sumer, Atlantis and Irem.

The Roman Empire was ruled by the Juli clan who claimed descent from Romulus and Remus, who made a deal with owl demons to found the Juli, who exterminated another clan only known as Traditories. Sumer was ruled by werewolf god-kings who assassinated an even older werewolf god after he was poisoned by a spider goddess, which split reality in half. Atlantis was ruled by wizards blessed by dragons, who built a literal stairway to heaven that exploded and punched a hole to the warp. Irem was ruled by mummies, who warred with the werewolves and wizards. And that’s just before recorded history. There’s also the Cult of Seth rebelling against Akhenaton, Taskforce Valkyrie uncovering a cabal of three-eyed hermaphrodite nazi wizards, Cheiron Group cutting up magical creatures for drugs, the Tremere Liches going around eating souls, and that’s just off the top of my heading remembering stuff I read over a decade ago. The books are chock full of worldbuilding.

Where did you ever get the factually wrong impression that it didn’t have worldbuilding? It has dozens and dozens of books’ worth of worldbuilding.

 

[ColaWerewolf]

Star Trek worldbuilding more popular than The Orville or Babylon 5

I disagree with this one, at least where Babylon 5 is concerned. It has a much better world building than the mess that Star Trek has become over the years!

I don't mean quality but rather popularity and wider appeal. The more expansive the worldbuilding is the more dissemination power it has among the public. And even though we might fool ourselves otherwise, we're instinctively more interested in what's popular and relevant with our contemporaries.

 

[NecroLord]

it's literally just as simple as people preferring worldbuilding (that they can fuck around with, alter, theorize over, etc.) over non-worldbuilding, no matter how shit the worldbuilding is.

That is one of the stupidest things I’ve ever heard and I have heard tons of stupid shit. Requiem does have tons of worldbuilding and they would know that if they read the books. Onyx wrote an entire series of “Dark Eras” books exploring different historical periods, like the Roman Empire, Sumer, Atlantis and Irem.

The Roman Empire was ruled by the Juli clan who claimed descent from Romulus and Remus, who made a deal with owl demons to found the Juli, who exterminated another clan only known as Traditories. Sumer was ruled by werewolf god-kings who assassinated an even older werewolf god after he was poisoned by a spider goddess, which split reality in half. Atlantis was ruled by wizards blessed by dragons, who built a literal stairway to heaven that exploded and punched a hole to the warp. Irem was ruled by mummies, who warred with the werewolves and wizards. And that’s just before recorded history. There’s also the Cult of Seth rebelling against Akhenaton, Taskforce Valkyrie uncovering a cabal of three-eyed hermaphrodite nazi wizards, Cheiron Group cutting up magical creatures for drugs, the Tremere Liches going around eating souls, and that’s just off the top of my heading remembering stuff I read over a decade ago. The books are chock full of worldbuilding.

Where did you ever get the factually wrong impression that it didn’t have worldbuilding? It has dozens and dozens of books’ worth of worldbuilding.

I liked the mystery surrounding Carthage and its destruction by the Ventrue Rome.
The Brujah claimed it was a second Enoch where kine and kindred coexisted, but other sources claim that it was a hellish den of Baali diabolists doing truly foul and evil things to the kine and that Carthage was utterly corrupt and had to be destroyed.
Either way, the modern Brujah are trash. Dark Ages Brujah had some nobility and were warrior and scholars.

 

[RaggleFraggle]

And even though we might fool ourselves otherwise, we're instinctively more interested in what's popular and relevant with our contemporaries.

I feel the opposite. Things that are popular instinctively turn me off. I’m burnt out on all the settings you list because I feel they’ve been written into corners, driven into the ground, oversaturated, etc.

I prefer the old dead and discarded settings over the popular zombified franchises. They have the space to be creative.

The more expansive the worldbuilding is the more dissemination power it has among the public.

To be entirely candid, I think the concept of lore is stupid and lorefags are an outlier. Nerd discourse has given disproportionate attention to lore that misunderstands how fandoms actually develop.

Lore is just irrelevant factoids. Audiences don’t connect with irrelevant factoids, they connect with characters. Nobody would care about Middle Earth if it wasn’t for Frodo and Aragorn earning our investment.

Lore is, at best, a light seasoning on the meat that is plot and characters (or gameplay for games). No franchise has achieved success by spewing out lore. They’ve achieved success by telling stories about characters, or having good gameplay.

This cult of lore, and it is a cult, is imo a key reason why modern pop culture and fandom sucks so much. People have forgotten how to create and what parts of creation are important.

EDIT:
Bloodlines is what put the IP on the map, not lore. People like Jeanette and Troika’s quirky writing. That’s what drew fans in and kept them in. Enough to justify Paradox’s buyout.

White Wolf cancelled the IP in 2004 because it wasn’t selling anymore and one of the reasons given was because the excessive irrelevant lore made it too intimidating for new players to get into. The reboot Requiem was a huge financial success btw, sitting in the top 5 on the ICv2 for several years straight. V5 decapitated the lore and turned itself into what most consider an inferior version of Requiem, and it reached top 5 on the ICv2.

So, it seems pretty clear here that lore is not the reason for financial success. What seemingly attracts customers and keeps them engaged are fun characters like Jeanette and fun gameplay like street level superheroes.

 

[Skinwalker]

The stupid metaplot in VtM had gotten wildly out of control. Every historical figure was a vampire/ghost/werewolf/mage/whatever, they changed the status quo unnecessarily (what's the point of having Gangrel leave the Camarilla? Why nuke clan Ravnos?), there was the True Black Hand fiasco, and the whole thing was a mish-mash of different authors shoving their ideas, instead of merely suggesting them.

Players were free to ignore any of the parts they didn't like, but I guess most of them were too midwitted to just make an executive decision and say "no, we're not doing the mandatory pre-Final Nights status quo shakeup. no, there's no such thing as "dhampyres". no, the Technocracy did not nuke an antediluvian. no, Tremere did not instantly annihilate their entire antitribu."

 

[RaggleFraggle]

Yeah, so what were people expecting White Wolf to do? The metaplot/lore bloat was untenable. A reboot like Requiem or V5 was inevitable.