Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[normie]

"Meddling".
Not quite.
Just Caine being sick of the Kindred world and the Jyhad, hence being a humble cab driver...

Who's also involved in a tangled plot involving a sarcophagus, a bomb, and dominating a vampire into siring a childe without approval all to kill some Prince who could be dispatched in a much quicker fashion. Bloodlines's character interactions are fun, but the plot is stupid.

see, you still don't get what the plot is
that's why you're a dumb person
but it's a small miracle you've finally relented that the taxi driver is Caine by author's intent, you used to be dumber than even that

 

[Skinwalker]

Who's also involved in a tangled plot involving a sarcophagus, a bomb, and dominating a vampire into siring a childe without approval all to kill some Prince who could be dispatched in a much quicker fashion.

Jack's plot could work without the protagonist doing all the dirty work for LaCroix.

 

[Roguey]

you are a midwit
and your elite theory shit is peak midwit, keep repeating it

Describe the cab driver's motivation and why he does the things the way he does them in Bloodlines. Troika itself doesn't even know.

 

[Fargus]

Even thousands of years old father of all vampires have to entertain himself.

 

[Roguey]

but it's a small miracle you've finally relented that the taxi driver is Caine by author's intent, you used to be dumber than even that

I do not recall ever making the argument that Troika never intended for it to be Caine, just that officially White Wolf didn't consider it Caine because they had other plans/ideas for him that contradicted Troika's take.

Jack's plot could work without the protagonist doing all the dirty work for LaCroix.

That is one of the reasons why it's nonsensical.

 

[Skinwalker]

Jack's plot could work without the protagonist doing all the dirty work for LaCroix.

That is one of the reasons why it's nonsensical.

What is nonsensical? After thousands of years of slumber/voluntary exile, Cain finally returns in some fashion, sees the world of his children in shambles, and secretly sires a new vampire to see what they will do. It's not a conspiracy, more of poking the anthill with a stick.

 

[Roguey]

What is nonsensical? After thousands of years of slumber/voluntary exile, Cain finally returns in some fashion, sees the world of his children in shambles, and secretly sires a new vampire to see what they will do. It's not a conspiracy, more of poking the anthill with a stick.

Caine disengaged with the world because one generation of his children diablerized the previous. Their still being awful would be no big shock.

Okay LaCroix the would be diablerizer is dead now - who fucking cares? What did this show about the nature of vampires that wasn't already known, what did this accomplish?

I've posted the White Wolf takes before https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...ines-2-from-hardsuit-labs.126124/post-6666020 https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads...ines-2-from-hardsuit-labs.126124/post-8388716

Their ideas make more sense than the johnny-come-latelies at Troika who by their own admission weren't really fans going in.

 

[Skinwalker]

Okay LaCroix the would be diablerizer is dead now - who fucking cares?

Also, the Sabbat's leader is destroyed, the Kuei Jin, the Anarchs are potentially rallied against the Camarilla, and there's a new tough guy in town - us!

 

[Vulpes]

The plot of the game only makes sense if Caine is the one who set it all up, especially if it's all a prelude to the Time of Judgement as Tim suggests in his video about the cancelled expansion. The whole struggle over the Ankaran Sarcophagus exists to test how modern vampires (be they Sabbat, Anarch, Camarilla, Elder or fledgeling) would react if their ancient forefathers returned. The reason why Caine abandoned vampiric society and cursed the Antediluvians was because they slaughtered the second generation for their power. Now in VtM Bloodlines he wants to see if things have changed for the better since then or if Kindred are doomed to make the same mistakes over and over again.

 

[Roguey]

Also, the Sabbat's leader is destroyed, the Kuei Jin, the Anarchs are potentially rallied against the Camarilla, and there's a new tough guy in town - us!

To a previously-disengaged ancient vampire like Caine, this isn't pretty significant. Factions fall, factions rise to take their place. Business as usual. No real reason to favor one group of horrible beings over another.

 

[Roguey]

The whole struggle over the Ankaran Sarcophagus exists to test how modern vampires (be they Sabbat, Anarch, Camarilla, Elder or fledgeling) would react if their ancient forefathers returned.

None of this requires making an Extra Special vampire to serve as an errand runner.

 

[normie]

you are a midwit
and your elite theory shit is peak midwit, keep repeating it

Describe the cab driver's motivation and why he does the things the way he does them in Bloodlines. Troika itself doesn't even know.

again? it's all explained with the parallels to the Noddist lore and the First City the game gives you, the game's central thrust is in the game, it's not a mystery
and it's not like the game is subtle, all you do in the game is get a cross cut of the city's vampires with and just about every important faction vampire saying "doooood, really think about it when judging faction, really really think about it doooooood"

just that officially White Wolf didn't consider it Caine because they had other plans/ideas for him that contradicted Troika's take.

you were adamant that in discussing VTMB, it shouldn't be considered Caine because somehow the word of White Wolf overrides authorial intents of Troika, and every other shit-ass argument you contrive because you don't like it being Caine and you don't get it

I don't even care that you don't get a creative work and essentially are failing the literacy equivalent of a breakfast test - but you, of all people, don't get to scoff and call others midwits, you are the definition of a midwit

 

[Roguey]

again? it's all explained with the parallels to the Noddist lore and the First City the game gives you, the game's central thrust is in the game, it's not a mystery

You're dodging, this is not a suitable explanation.

you were adamant that in discussing VTMB, it shouldn't be considered Caine because somehow the word of White Wolf overrides authorial intents of Troika, and every other shit-ass argument you contrive because you don't like it being Caine and you don't get it

White Wolf (though now it's just Paradox) owns Vampire, not Troika, who were work-for-hire contractors who made a game that's now semi-canon.

 

[Skinwalker]

Also, the Sabbat's leader is destroyed, the Kuei Jin, the Anarchs are potentially rallied against the Camarilla, and there's a new tough guy in town - us!

To a previously-disengaged ancient vampire like Caine, this isn't pretty significant. Factions fall, factions rise to take their place. Business as usual. No real reason to favor one group of horrible beings over another.

It's still his children, and he's trying to see how a direct new child of his would challenge the status quo. Also, he clearly favors the Anarch cause in his dialogue.

 

[Roguey]

It's still his children, and he's trying to see how a direct new child of his would challenge the status quo.

And what new things did he learn from this? If you take the fledgeling out of the picture, very little would have changed, just some minor details.

Also, he clearly favors the Anarch cause in his dialogue.

It's well within his power to single-handedly wipe out the Camarilla, but he doesn't do this because...?

 

[normie]

semi-canon

THE CANON has bearing only as far as intentions of the authors of creative work mean it to have, which can be "none", and only up until the moment the work is finished, so the "word of god" is piss in the wind as far as judging the intentions of a creative work go
THE CANON is not the creative works, but the hamfisted, imposed attempt to whip many creative works to a unifying coherency (easy with works from the same author, difficult with a property that whores itself out) - THE CANON is not the creative spark spawning those creative works, it's the individuals responsible for the particular creative work - they miss things, they get creative with interpretation, they add things, they recontextualise, they transform it, and in the same way THE CANON tries to impose coherency, they impose THE CANON to tell the stories they want to tell; the work is the work and not the well it drew from

White Wolf has the say on the CANON, but THE CANON has no say on the intentions of the game because THE CANON didn't make it - whatever White Wolf said during the creation process does not matter if it was not heeded, and whatever White Wolf says after has no bearing because creative process is already over with

whatever is in the game is what the story of the game is, and whatever of the THE CANON accords with the individual work is the only CANON that's relevant to the game, end of
you don't get the game's story and literary intentions because there's bug in your brain that does not allow you to and you're post hoc using materials irrelevant to judging the intentions of the game (CANON)

It's well within his power to single-handedly wipe out the Camarilla, but he doesn't do this because...?

because that's the game, as told by Troika

 

[Roguey]

THE CANON has bearing only as far as intentions of the authors of creative work mean it to have, which can be "none", and only up until the moment the work is finished, so the "word of god" is piss in the wind as far as judging the intentions of a creative work go
THE CANON is not the creative works, but the hamfisted, imposed attempt to whip many creative works to a unifying coherency (easy with works from the same author, difficult with a property that whores itself out) - THE CANON is not the creative spark spawning those creative works, it's the individuals responsible for the particular creative work - they miss things, they get creative with interpretation, they add things, they recontextualise, they transform it, and in the same way THE CANON tries to impose coherency, they impose THE CANON to tell the stories they want to tell; the work is the work and not the well it drew from

White Wolf has the say on the CANON, but THE CANON has no say on the intentions of the game because THE CANON didn't make it - whatever White Wolf said during the creation process does not matter if it was not heeded, and whatever White Wolf says after has no bearing because creative process is already over with

whatever is in the game is what the story of the game is, and whatever of the THE CANON accords with the individual work is the only CANON that's relevant to the game, end of
you don't get the game's story and literary intentions because there's bug in your brain that does not allow you to and you're post hoc using materials irrelevant to judging the intentions of the game (CANON)

They made a game using a setting and characters they didn't create and that did not belong to them. The IP Owner decides what counts.

because that's the game, as told by Troika

And brains like these went on to create Dead State and The Outer Worlds.

 

[Vulpes]

The whole struggle over the Ankaran Sarcophagus exists to test how modern vampires (be they Sabbat, Anarch, Camarilla, Elder or fledgeling) would react if their ancient forefathers returned.

None of this requires making an Extra Special vampire to serve as an errand runner.

You have no prior allegiances or attachments since your sire was killed just as you were embraced, which means you have a high degree of social mobility. You are the perfect tool to subtly stir the pot amongst the different factions as your unaffiliated nature will attract them to you. Everyone, even the Kuei-Jin, wants you on their side. If it weren't for your player character, this scheme would've grinded to a halt right as the Elizabeth Dane arrived in LA.

And what new things did he learn from this? If you take the fledgeling out of the picture, very little would have changed, just some minor details.

Who then would've found out that the Giovanni have the sarcophagus? Maybe you didn't notice it, but before you showed up the Sabbat were right in the middle of slaughtering the only people who know where it is. Smiling Jack? No one outside of Nines' gang would've believed him and even they would find it suspicious how he knows this. And do you seriously think Ming Xiao would've told someone who is already loyal to one of the Kindred sects that she has the key? Fuck no, she's only being honest with you to try to win you over.

 

[normie]

They made a game using a setting and characters they didn't create and that did not belong to them. The IP Owner decides what counts.

"what counts" is not what's in the game, that's just you again rationalising your inability to understand or appreciate a creative work on its merits and rerouting the reasoning "why" back to your subservience to authority and prestige because I don't know, it's your thing now because you think that's what your impression of a smart person is, a neocon dicksucker who wants to eat the crud between the toes of those who've been to prestige universities
"VTMB IS BAD BECAUSE CAIN WENT TO UC IRVINE "
Squeenix decides what "counts", but they have no meaningful say on the intentions of Deus Ex and you'd be utterly confused about it if you'd insist on retrofitting HR's ideas to the first game, Conan Doyle Estate can say Enola Holmes is the real brain of the family but it has no bearing on "The Hound of the Baskervilles", Rowling can say Dumbledore is a homo but it wasn't even a thought in her brain when writing her first book and you'd be a real goober trying to read "Harry Potter and The Philosopher's Stone" critically as an example of queer literature, 50 different cuts of Blade Runner from the same retarded faggot, the god with the word doesn't himself know which way is up or down, it changed with the weather

And brains like these went on to create Dead State and The Outer Worlds.

no heroes, no martyrs

 

[Skinwalker]

Kreia is Arren Kae, Handmaiden's mother, and the Jedi Exile is a man.

 

[Roguey]

You have no prior allegiances or attachments since your sire was killed just as you were embraced, which means you have a high degree of social mobility. You are the perfect tool to subtly stir the pot amongst the different factions as your unaffiliated nature will attract them to you. Everyone, even the Kuei-Jin, wants you on their side. If it weren't for your player character, this scheme would've grinded to a halt right as the Elizabeth Dane arrived in LA.

"My scheme to throw a Sarcophagus at these vamps and see what happens also requires having my own unknowing agent intervening which defeats the purpose because I quite figuratively have my thumb on the scale."

The agent was perhaps necessary to get the outcome of "LaCroix gets blown up by the bomb" but why is that so important? There are also endings where he doesn't get blown up (Xiao, Strauss).

LaCroix also certainly wouldn't have just thrown his hands up and given up. He has his Sheriff, he has other vampires to throw at the problem. He sends the PC on suicide missions hoping you'll fail, your successes benefit him, but are also an unwelcome surprise.

"VTMB IS BAD BECAUSE CAIN WENT TO UC IRVINE "

Cain showed what kind of writer he was with the Vault retcon. He rule-of-cools it, and if he later finds out that his idea was implausible, he comes up with an explanation to "make it work" even if it's incredibly silly. Maybe get it right the first time.

Squeenix decides what "counts", but they have no meaningful say on the intentions of Deus Ex and you'd be utterly confused about it if you'd insist on retrofitting HR's ideas to the first game, Conan Doyle Estate can say Enola Holmes is the real brain of the family but it has no bearing on "The Hound of the Baskervilles", Rowling can say Dumbledore is a homo but it wasn't even a thought in her brain when writing her first book and you'd be a real goober trying to read "Harry Potter and The Philosopher's Stone" critically as an example of queer literature, 50 different cuts of Blade Runner from the same retarded faggot, the god with the word doesn't himself know which way is up or down, it changed with the wather

Drew Karpyshyn made a book sequel to KOTOR 2 that straight up bulldozed it. But Drew was the primary author of the first game, KOTOR 2 being a sequel he had no control over and apparently didn't care for at all. Of all these works, 2 had the best writing. But Lucas was quite willing to discard it and it's no longer canon, that's their call.

 

[normie]

"VTMB IS BAD BECAUSE CAIN WENT TO UC IRVINE "

Cain showed what kind of writer he was with the Vault retcon. He rule-of-cools it, and if he later finds out that his idea was implausible, he comes up with an explanation to "make it work" even if it's incredibly silly. Maybe get it right the first time.

Squeenix decides what "counts", but they have no meaningful say on the intentions of Deus Ex and you'd be utterly confused about it if you'd insist on retrofitting HR's ideas to the first game, Conan Doyle Estate can say Enola Holmes is the real brain of the family but it has no bearing on "The Hound of the Baskervilles", Rowling can say Dumbledore is a homo but it wasn't even a thought in her brain when writing her first book and you'd be a real goober trying to read "Harry Potter and The Philosopher's Stone" critically as an example of queer literature, 50 different cuts of Blade Runner from the same retarded faggot, the god with the word doesn't himself know which way is up or down, it changed with the weather

Drew Karpyshyn made a book sequel to KOTOR 2 that straight up bulldozed it. But Drew was the primary author of the first game, KOTOR 2 being a sequel he had no control over and apparently didn't care for at all. Of all these works, 2 had the best writing. But Lucas was quite willing to discard it and it's no longer canon, that's their call.

guy, everybody knows how canon works, and nobody is disputing it
the issue is your sleight of hand in your application of it for what's not a question of canon, but your misunderstanding of the qualities of a work independent of "canonical" interpretations, and once explained, not ceding it for what it is, good or bad, because I guess no answer is as good as the one you arrived on your own, or in this case didn't

the concept doesn't even enter the brain of someone whose only experience with WoD is VTMB, there is no CANON - and if they're confused about the game based on what's just presented in the game, knowing CANON brings no greater clarity to their ability to evaluate the work on its merits
the Caine of VTMB is coherent to VTMB and Troikas handling of WoD ideas as explored in VTMB - you don't understand or appreciate the motivations of Caine hinted at as explored in VTMB, so bringing in outside lore and assigning greater importance to the interpretations of preceding or following works of others to try to weasel out reasons why the creators of VTMB are somehow wrong or misguided about their own work is so far off course in trying to get the interpretation of the game's ideas right, it gets you no greater clarity and it becomes a discussion about something completely irrelevant to the game

 

[Roguey]

the concept doesn't even enter the brain of someone whose only experience with WoD is VTMB, there is no CANON - and if they're confused about the game based on what's just presented in the game, knowing CANON brings no greater clarity to their ability to evaluate the work on its merits
the Caine of VTMB is coherent to VTMB and Troikas handling of WoD ideas as explored in VTMB - you don't understand or appreciate the motivations of Caine hinted at as explored in VTMB, so bringing in outside lore and assigning greater importance to the interpretations of preceding or following works of others to try to weasel out reasons why the creators of VTMB are somehow wrong or misguided about their own work is so far off course in trying to get the interpretation of the game's ideas right, it gets you no greater clarity and it becomes a discussion about something completely irrelevant to the game

There's a metaplot and that's canon.

One of my favorite posters made a great thread-long takedown of why Troika's handling of Vampire was as bad as Bethesda's handling of Fallout https://rpgcodex.net/forums/threads/the-codexs-official-opinion-on-vtm-bloodlines.50142/post-1345616

 

[Larianshill]

Bloodlines elevated the shitpile that is the World of Darkness tabletop

 

[Storyfag]

Also, he clearly favors the Anarch cause in his dialogue.

It's well within his power to single-handedly wipe out the Camarilla, but he doesn't do this because...?

Because he is tired of ruling and of judging. He made that mistake before, but he is doing it again: leaving it to his Childer to decide their fate. He says it outright, though, admittedly, you get the full picture only after a non-Malk and Malk playthrough.