Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[pippin]

All the confusion about Caine comes from White Wolf being touchy about the way they were going to use him. I think it was White Wolf. It's "supposed" to be him, but Troika wasn't allowed to say it was him.

 

[Lacrymas]

Caine being your Sire would've been ridiculously silly, even by Bloodlines' standards. You'd be a second gen vampire, i.e. literally a Blood God. It's a bit too power fantasy-ish :p We talked about that in this thread actually.

 

[Average Manatee]

Caine could bend the rules to do whatever he wants. Him and sufficiently high generation vampires are basically walking plot devices.

 

[Jaesun]

The taxi driver is a Malkavian who thinks he is Cain...

 

[laclongquan]

The reason to think he's not Cain because frankly his scheme is too local. LA is big, but ultimately only a city. A progenitor god like Cain would amuse himself with drama of species, or trans-continental schemes.

So yeah, a Malk thinking himself Cain is a good alternative.

 

[Barbarian]

The taxi driver is a Malkavian who thinks he is Cain...

Was this ever confirmed by a dev?

I remember when you listen to the taxi driver calling in that "deb of night" radio show or whatever it was called. The guy certainly seemed off his rockers, what with the transylvanian accent and threatening radio show hosts with end of the world scenarios. Very malkavian-esque.

 

[Average Manatee]

The weird aura (both visual and vampires feeling uneasy in the city), the fact that the emails are coming from the beginning (showing that its been planned all along), and the fact that the player can come from clans other than Malkavian all hint towards Caine or something similar. Would seem fairly implausible that the PC got randomly embraced by a very high generation vampire and a similarly high generation malkavian believing he was Caine picked up on this and started screwing with the player immediately without LaCroix or anyone else big finding out.

Plus, the Malkavian dialog:

When speaking with the seer on the Santa Monica Beach, one line of dialogue mentions a smiling man (Smiling Jack), and the "Father" standing behind him. At the end of the game, a cutscene is shown with Jack watching the Venture Tower from afar and laughing, with the corpse of Messerach next to him; in the last moments of the game, the Cab Driver appears unexpectedly behind him, bearing a smoky black aura that no other character in the game displays, and repeating his earlier line: "Remember, wherever we go, it is the blood of Caine which makes our fate."

Could refer to Malkav the father of all Malkavians (who would presumably be powerful and wise enough to play the role of Caine in the act), but he's also supposed to be dead.

 

[Yoshiyyahu]

IIRC in the PnP, Jack meets a Malkavian who believes he is Caine, but I am pretty sure he had a low generation.

I think they wanted the taxi driver to be Caine, but I am glad that it is not stated. Caine seems to have had enough of vampires, after all the shit that went down with his childer and how vampires everywhere have been neglecting his rules.

 

[Clockwork Knight]

It's obviously Caine but since he's an important pre-existing character who is supposed to be all mystical and mysterious we have the "it's just a malkavian lol don't think too much about it" fallback option in case White Wolf ever wants to so something with him without worrying about possible "wait! At the time he was driving a taxi in Los Angeles" plot holes.

 

[Lacrymas]

He can do literally whatever he wants, so him driving a cab in LA wouldn't stop him from being somewhere else at the same time. I already mentioned in this thread that a being as powerful as him won't involve himself with such direct manipulation because he can simply wish it and it would happen. He's probably curious what would happen. He knows there is no Antediluvian in the sarcophagus, so it's pointless to embrace someone, make him higher generation in a specific clan and... I don't know? Watch her/him wreak havoc in LA? Sounds bizarrely out-of-character.

 

[Lambach]

I've always found the notion of a literal god driving a taxi around LA quite ludicrous. I'm not 100% certain how Caine compares to the likes of Lucifer, Belial and Lilith on the scale of power, but it's entirely possible that he is second only to God (big "G") in the oWoD universe. Hell, there's reason to suspect he lost the ability to even communicate with or understand lesser beings, the same way a normal human wouldn't be able to communicate with an ant.

That's the problem with the representation of characters who go beyond the mortal scope in mental attributes. Let's put it terms of mechanics. 1 dot in Intelligence represents a complete dumbfuck. 5 dots is Newton, Aristotle and other greatest minds history has ever known. Each dot, as clearly stated in the rulebook, represents exponential increase. So a being with 6 dots in Intelligence already possesses an intellect completely alien and incomprehensible to us common plebs. And Caine probably has 9 or 10. We're expected to believe someone, nay, something like that spends its nights driving a damn cab around and is capable of having a coherent conversation with a creature as inferior to it as a bedbug is to a human?

When talking about combat, you have to assume neither of the contenders is a stupid retard

Well, you just shot your own argument in the foot there, because only a retarded or suicidal Vampire would ever risk a fight with a Lupine.

like a rich vampire walking with an army of ghouls and lower generation vampires carrying automatic weapons with silver bullets, most of them ex military of some description.

Well, yes, this is something that actually happens, unlike 1v1 Vampire vs Werewolf duels. Until they hit at least 2 centuries of unlife, Vampires are actually quite low on the food chain compared to other supernaturals in WoD. Hell, if you think they're getting fucked too easily by Wolves, try going up against a Mage. That's why they have to be smart and avoid direct confrontation as much as possible. And even then, why risk potentially getting mauled when you can just get a bunch of goons to do your dirty work for you?

If a vampire with maxed dominate or presence finds one of those rabid dogs, he simply puts a leash on them.

Those rabid dogs have a few tricks of their own: (http://www.thesubnet.com/portal/wod/wta20/GiftsTSF.html)

Paws Of The Newborn Cub
With only a glare and a snarl, the Silver Fang can temporarily suppress an opponent's supernatural tricks, leaving him to face the werewolf's wrath as nothing more than an animal or human. A falcon-spirit teaches this Gift.

Renew The Cycle
One of the most potent powers available to the Garou, this Gift allows the correction of a grievous wrong done to the natural cycle of Gaia. The undead, whose very existence is an affront to the natural order of things, wither and crumble to dust when struck by the power of this Gift. Whether the undead is a shambling, month-old animated corpse or an ancient vampire, the Fang can destroy it with but a glance. Only an avatar of Gaia Herself can teach this Gift.

 

[laclongquan]

:shake head: That aspect doesnt bother me.

Think: if you are so powerful like that, what do opinions of mere pebbles matter? Kinda like a billionaire occassionally go by bus, security permitting.

The only thing that matters is his own thoughts. If driving a round in a cab amuse him, why would he not do it?

 

[ZagorTeNej]

The taxi driver is a Malkavian who thinks he is Cain...

In White Wolf cannon, which isn't really all that relevant when we're talking about a specific video game that merely draws inspiration from that source and was never meant to be a 1:1 adaption (nor a video game solely aimed at tabletop aficionados).

In addition to all of the pretty clear hints throughout the game (already mentioned in the thread several times) the cab driver's MP3 files folder is named Caine. It's quite clear that as far as Troika is concerned that's who he is.

 

[ZagorTeNej]

I've always found the notion of a literal god driving a taxi around LA quite ludicrous.

Be that as it may, angels/gods/devils/aliens walking among mere mortals wearing an inconspicuous disguise (taxi driver, bartender, local bum) is a pretty common trope in all forms of medium.

 

[Lhynn]

Assuming Garous are dumb hacks, which they aren't. Read Lambach's post.

Im not assuming anything other than no metagaming.

Well, you just shot your own argument in the foot there, because only a retarded or suicidal Vampire would ever risk a fight with a Lupine.

Sometimes you dont got much of a choice.

Well, yes, this is something that actually happens, unlike 1v1 Vampire vs Werewolf duels. Until they hit at least 2 centuries of unlife, Vampires are actually quite low on the food chain compared to other supernaturals in WoD. Hell, if you think they're getting fucked too easily by Wolves, try going up against a Mage. That's why they have to be smart and avoid direct confrontation as much as possible. And even then, why risk potentially getting mauled when you can just get a bunch of goons to do your dirty work for you?

Sure, from a narrative point it makes sense, but thats not the scenario you presented. Tbh as an immortal vampire id probably wait it out then piss on their graves.

Those rabid dogs have a few tricks of their own: (http://www.thesubnet.com/portal/wod/wta20/GiftsTSF.html)

Paws Of The Newborn Cub
With only a glare and a snarl, the Silver Fang can temporarily suppress an opponent's supernatural tricks, leaving him to face the werewolf's wrath as nothing more than an animal or human. A falcon-spirit teaches this Gift.

Renew The Cycle
One of the most potent powers available to the Garou, this Gift allows the correction of a grievous wrong done to the natural cycle of Gaia. The undead, whose very existence is an affront to the natural order of things, wither and crumble to dust when struck by the power of this Gift. Whether the undead is a shambling, month-old animated corpse or an ancient vampire, the Fang can destroy it with but a glance. Only an avatar of Gaia Herself can teach this Gift.

Cool tricks, that also require full usage of your faculties, which you wont have or need by the end of the initiative so the first one is useless. The second is cute, literally a stuff of legend that cannot be acquired at character creation and that its more than likely that no garou in PnP has ever gotten, against some shitty 8 gen vampire with a few ranks on dominate.

Listen, garous can be smart, but it doesnt change the fact that they are rabid furballs with a relatively weak mind. So you target that weakness. You may want to argue all day about this, but it is what it is.

Never gonna understand this worship of werewolves that seems to be present with WoD fans, "like they are awesome man, they have super high numbers", fuck them, fuck everyone. With all the shit written for them or about them they are the single least interesting shit to play as in the whole system.

 

[duchU]

Was this ever confirmed by a dev?

I remember when you listen to the taxi driver calling in that "deb of night" radio show or whatever it was called. The guy certainly seemed off his rockers, what with the transylvanian accent and threatening radio show hosts with end of the world scenarios. Very malkavian-esque.

Aren't you mistaken here? It was Andrei the damn Tzimisce (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTkJSU9JQV4).

 

[pippin]

Andrei is the one that calls. Deb's reaction suggests she might be a vampire as well. I wonder what clan she belongs to.
I remember people at Troika saying they wanted the cab driver to be Caine but WW said no, you can't use this character like that. I think the reason given was that he was doing something somewhere else at the time of Bloodlines' events.

 

[duchU]

[...] Deb's reaction suggests she might be a vampire as well. I wonder what clan she belongs to. [...]

I would bet on Toreador. Her voice... man :D

 

[makiavelli747]

Deb's reaction suggests she might be a vampire as well.

What?

 

[pippin]

[...] Deb's reaction suggests she might be a vampire as well. I wonder what clan she belongs to. [...]

I would bet on Toreador. Her voice... man :D

In another forum there were people speculating about her clan.
Malk? Too "sane".
Nosferatu? Maybe, but most Nosferatu characters you meet have fucked up voices. It would be funny if she turns out to be a super ugly woman with a super hot voice.
Toreador seems to be the most logical answer. Highly charismatic, probably considers radio as a form of art, etc.

Deb's reaction suggests she might be a vampire as well.

What?

When most human people call her, she's quick to dismiss them with funny remarks or stuff like that. When Andrei calls her, she seems a bit nervous, and even says she must calm herself down a little after that particular call.

 

[duchU]

Besides the show name is the best possible suggestion I would say

 

[makiavelli747]

When Andrei calls her, she seems a bit nervous, and even says she must calm herself down a little after that particular call.

goddamn... I guess that is one of those human brain powers - if you want to believe nothing else matter

 

[Lacrymas]

She's actually pretty unfazed and that's why people think she's at least knowledgeable of the "creatures of the night", and probably a part of the Camarilla due to her unfaze-ness. It can also be that she's always dealing with kooks and she's used to it. Knowing this is Bloodlines she's probably a vampire.

 

[duchU]

[...] Nosferatu? Maybe, but most Nosferatu characters you meet have fucked up voices. It would be funny if she turns out to be a super ugly woman with a super hot voice. [...]

Not sure if Camarilla would let Nosferatu chick to be a hot voice radio presenter...

 

[Lambach]

Sometimes you dont got much of a choice.

Mate, if you're playing a Vampire game and you run into a Werewolf without the rest of your Coterie, you've either fucked up something fierce or your Storyteller hates you.

Cool tricks, that also require full usage of your faculties, which you wont have or need by the end of the initiative so the first one is useless.

You're assuming the Vampire will get to act first, which is quite a stretch, considering the Wolf would probably just jump out Umbra unexpectedly.

So you target that weakness.

But their minds aren't their greatest weakness. It's their almost complete lack of pull within the mortal society (comparative to Kindred). You exploit that, not roll the dice and hope you have sufficient luck to act first, not botch your Dominate/Presence rolls etc.

You may want to argue all day about this, but it is what it is.

The Garou were intentionally designed to be greatly superior to Kindred in combat by White Wolf themselves and to completely discourage you from meeting them face-to-face. You can argue about it 'till the cows come home, but that's how it is.

Never gonna understand this worship of werewolves that seems to be present with WoD fans, "like they are awesome man, they have super high numbers", fuck them, fuck everyone. With all the shit written for them or about them they are the single least interesting shit to play as in the whole system.

I don't even like the Werewolf series. To me, those are shitty D&D games masquerading as WoD ones. But just because your or my personal preferences lie elsewhere doesn't mean that, I repeat, Werewolves weren't specifically designed by the creators of the WoD universe to be far superior combatants (barring very old Kindred, of course). And "fuck them, fuck everyone" isn't really an argument.