Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[duchU]

The reason some of the quests from the UP seem amateurish is because they're poorly written. Not being able to add voice overs (and I'm including the Library quest, which has a voice over that just doesn't work) is limiting, but it's not an excuse for bad writing. Like I said, I feel bad being critical because the main problem is that the quests were made over a long period of time by a group of enthusiasts experimenting with modding to try and figure out what they could accomplish. Still, there's a problem with what I would call oversight. There's no one acting as a proper editor asking logical questions about why something is happening and what the effect is on the setting and story. There's no one editing the text properly either, for that matter.

Not sure what you mean here. I think the only new quest you can refer to is the Library quest since there are no more new quests like that. What do you mean by saying:
1) Bad writing
2) Oversight
3) No one acting as a proper editor asking logical questions about why something is happening and what the effect is on the setting and story
4) No one editing the text properly
If you give actual examples then they might be fixed.

I'll give a couple of quick examples of things changed by the UP for no apparent reason. The first time you step out of your haven in Santa Monica, there's a stuffy rich guy who is stranded because his car broke down. The UP adds a tiny compact car staged to look like it crashed into some palm trees. There's even a little trail of smoke coming from the hood. This is not an improvement over no car because, for one thing, the guy's car didn't crash, it just broke down, and for another, he's supposed to be rich so he wouldn't be driving a little wind-up toy car. It probably happened that some one figured out how to add a car to the scene, and so he did add it simply because he could.

From what I know this is an orignal car which was there and it was just "unhided". The guy says his mechanic told him to buy a German so I guess this car is supposed to look like... well nothing special.

There's also a vampire who may or may not be spying on you. In any case he vanishes from sight as soon as he sees you (using Obfuscate, presumably). This guy used to be lurking in a dark alley on the other side of Trip's Pawn Shop, but the UP moves him to the alley behind the blood bank, where he's much more noticeable. In fact, you can't miss him now because you practically run right in to him. This is also not an improvement. In fact I'd say it's worse because it used to be a nice, creepy, little touch you might have missed the first time, but you would eventually see it. Now it's in your face. It's as though the UP thinks Troika made a mistake placing the spy in the alley beyond Trip's. No they didn't.

Can ask Wesp why he changed it.

I managed to finish the game. There's a moment near the end, just before Jack disappears from The Last Round, when you can talk to him as a Malkavian and essentially reveal his entire scheme with the sarcophagus. It disturbs him, to say the least. He implies that he would have to kill you if he thought you actually understood what you were saying.

Not sure what you mean here. Malkavians are supposed to see things like those. Grout was killed because of it if I remember correct.

 

[Wesp5]

There's no one acting as a proper editor asking logical questions about why something is happening and what the effect is on the setting and story. There's no one editing the text properly either, for that matter.

Late for the party but not too late I hope ! As for the library quest, as duchU said without voice overs you can't do much and I did try to explain a little bit more what happens in the two new maps that were added in the UP 9.5. Still I am open to corrections if something is illogical or badly written as I am not a native English speaker!

This is not an improvement over no car because, for one thing, the guy's car didn't crash, it just broke down, and for another, he's supposed to be rich so he wouldn't be driving a little wind-up toy car.

First, the current car did not crash, ît doesn't touch any of the walls or the trees. Second, the guy says that he should have bought a German car so him driving a Yugo is part of the joke! Last not least, what was he doing there before with no car at all waiting for a tow truck? The only other car nearby is that of Mercurio...

It's as though the UP thinks Troika made a mistake placing the spy in the alley beyond Trip's. No they didn't.

Indeed, they didn't because I placed the guy in that alley because at first I couldn't figure out a way to trigger his dissappearing where he is right now, which is where Troika placed him! So my own solution was better, but I changed it to the place intended by Troika once I could make it happen...

 

[Wesp5]

I found annoying bugs in library quest (whole quest is kind of a bug in this game, it's just bad):

I'm open to suggestions on how to improve it! The only info I got out of Brian Mitsoda about it was: "The library design never even made it into an alpha stage. It was discussed, part of the level was built, but there was never any finalized quest plans or layout. There was some idea of it being a side quest connected to one of the major characters and the Sabbat, but it never really got beyond that. There was also some discussion of an optional boss there, but that was never designed fully." The major character had to be Beckett, because the library card item had his name stuck on it internally. A Sabbat boss is there too, and the "shitty" voice over is an unused sound file from Troika as well.

- trapdoor doesn't open even after using the computer (noclip helped here)

As already explained you didn't figure out the riddle. It was not supposed to be that easy !

- when I used flamethrower on the "final library boss" he started to scream, stopped to move at all and just got frozen (couldn;t kill him or harm in any way, reload and NOT using flamethrower helped).

This bug should have been fixed in the UP 9.5, I really hope you played an earlier version...

 

[Wesp5]

I found a newspaper with some bad grammatical errors, which breaks the mood horribly considering it's a modded area, and navigating the maze allows a different route to the end of the mansion, which cuts off a couple of the recordings.

You only miss one recording which isn't far away and we discussed duplicating it in the maze, which might make it into the next patch. Also could you please correct the grammatical errors? I will fix them as I am not a native English speaker myself and neither is the other guy who helped me with this map.

 

[Lilura]

Hey Wesp, will your bugfixing EVER be done?

 

[Delterius]

While you are here, Wesp don't you think that the Knox changes at the entrance of the hospital breaks things a bit? With your patch Knox approaches you with a neutral tone -- 'Need something pal?' -- which gives people little reason not to dismiss the conversation immediately. In vaniilla he goes straight into his overeager facade that leads to Bertram's later quest and allows the ghoul dialogue that allows you to heal Heather.

 

[makiavelli747]

While you are here, Wesp don't you think that the Knox changes at the entrance of the hospital breaks things a bit? With your patch Knox approaches you with a neutral tone -- 'Need something pal?' -- which gives people little reason not to dismiss the conversation immediately. In vaniilla he goes straight into his overeager facade that leads to Bertram's later quest and allows the ghoul dialogue that allows you to heal Heather.

same in vanilla, Knox will tell about Bertram after you get astrolite

 

[Delterius]

While you are here, Wesp don't you think that the Knox changes at the entrance of the hospital breaks things a bit? With your patch Knox approaches you with a neutral tone -- 'Need something pal?' -- which gives people little reason not to dismiss the conversation immediately. In vaniilla he goes straight into his overeager facade that leads to Bertram's later quest and allows the ghoul dialogue that allows you to heal Heather.

same in vanilla, Knox will tell about Bertram after you get astrolite

I'm speaking purely out of a narrative sense. In vanilla, Knox approaches you with his facade of a stupid ghoul to cozy up to you and eventually lead you into doing Bertram's work for him. With the Patch you only get that much dialogue if you humour the random weirdo on the street.

 

[Wesp5]

Hey Wesp, will your bugfixing EVER be done?

I don't know. I had high hopes that 9.5 would be some kind of final but already people are sending me new reports of things to fix or improve. Most are minor ones but I finally managed to un-censor the beheading in a much better way than before so there certainly will be another patch! I don't intend to add more levels though, I think we recreated everything we knew at least a bit about...

 

[Wesp5]

I'm speaking purely out of a narrative sense. In vanilla, Knox approaches you with his facade of a stupid ghoul to cozy up to you and eventually lead you into doing Bertram's work for him. With the Patch you only get that much dialogue if you humour the random weirdo on the street.

These are unused lines and I found no better way to restore them. For me it was obvious that so soon in the game you would talk to any NPC !

 

[Delterius]

That's the thing, you aren't the one initiating dialogue. Knox does and in vanilla he cuts straight to the chase. While most of the content you restored has a purpose, some of these unused lines just don't have a place. Like Jack at the tutorial who thinks that you are still inside the theater.

 

[Krivol]

I found annoying bugs in library quest (whole quest is kind of a bug in this game, it's just bad):

I'm open to suggestions on how to improve it! The only info I got out of Brian Mitsoda about it was: "The library design never even made it into an alpha stage. It was discussed, part of the level was built, but there was never any finalized quest plans or layout. There was some idea of it being a side quest connected to one of the major characters and the Sabbat, but it never really got beyond that. There was also some discussion of an optional boss there, but that was never designed fully." The major character had to be Beckett, because the library card item had his name stuck on it internally. A Sabbat boss is there too, and the "shitty" voice over is an unused sound file from Troika as well.

- trapdoor doesn't open even after using the computer (noclip helped here)

As already explained you didn't figure out the riddle. It was not supposed to be that easy !

- when I used flamethrower on the "final library boss" he started to scream, stopped to move at all and just got frozen (couldn;t kill him or harm in any way, reload and NOT using flamethrower helped).

This bug should have been fixed in the UP 9.5, I really hope you played an earlier version...

1. I think two more guards would make this more interesting and difficult - there are like 5 rooms IIRC and only 2 guards which makes only 2 of those rooms really difficult. It's a bit like a theatre, where there was at last one guard hard to avoid - I;m not saying theatre was best area ever, but got this one exciting moment with avoiding this one guard.
2. Yes, I'm a blind idiot
3. I think I'm using 9.5+ beta or sth like this (could check this later).

Oh and please, please, please, remove those annoying gateways in Confession (almost allways using noclip to pass them)!

 

[Wesp5]

1. I think two more guards would make this more interesting and difficult - there are like 5 rooms IIRC and only 2 guards which makes only 2 of those rooms really difficult. It's a bit like a theatre, where there was at last one guard hard to avoid - I;m not saying theatre was best area ever, but got this one exciting moment with avoiding this one guard.

Hm, I will consider this. But it might make the map impossible for people with bad Stealth skills as the gallery and reading room are quite small...

3. I think I'm using 9.5+ beta or sth like this (could check this later).

Okay, this might have fixed in the final version, it was a very late fix!

 

[Wesp5]

That's the thing, you aren't the one initiating dialogue. Knox does and in vanilla he cuts straight to the chase. While most of the content you restored has a purpose, some of these unused lines just don't have a place. Like Jack at the tutorial who thinks that you are still inside the theater.

Yeah, sometimes I improvised a bit to get new lines heard . But with Knox I think it is fine. Why would he recognize you as a vampire at the first look?

 

[Delterius]

He already knew who you are. His mission from Bertram from the beginning was to manipulate you into killing the Kuei Jin spy. He accomplishes that by 'running into you' and acting like an overeager silly ghoul so that, later on, he opens up and asks for a few favours. That his new first line is so serious kinda breaks the facade.

 

[Wesp5]

Hm, Knox only says that Bertram knew you were coming but there is no hint whatsoever that he knew how you looked, Bertram was not at the execution...

 

[Delterius]

I'm sure its not beyond Bertram to find that out, especially since he likely keeps tabs on all kindred who enter Santa Monica. A simple description of your face or the adress to the Camarilla safehouse you are sent to is all he needs.

 

[Lhynn]

Either way, its better to keep it ambiguous. "Does he or doesnt he know?" is a question that fits VtMB.

 

[Wesp5]

YO YO YO I GOT DINOSAUR EGGS - BUY EM AND HATCH EM!

Yeah, Larry had a lot of cool floats that Troika for some reasons did not activate in the original game. So I had to do it ! As for the car of the SM blueblood, I will move it to the street so it doesn't look as if he crashed...

 

[Prime Junta]

Wesp5 since you're reading, my main beef with the library mission was the boss fight, especially the cutscene that dumps you in the middle of it. I know the game does that in other places as well -- it was quite similar to the Tzimisce boss fight who also teleports -- but the execution was clunky. The rest of the library level was fine, it looked good and while it wasn't all that content-dense, the few puzzles that were in there were nice and fit it well.

All in all I was really impressed by your plus patch -- a few relatively minor exceptions aside, most of the restored content fit into the flow of the game seamlessly. I do agree with the criticisms related to Knox's dialog in front of the hospital; just because something is there doesn't mean it has to be put in somewhere.

 

[Wesp5]

Wesp5 since you're reading, my main beef with the library mission was the boss fight, especially the cutscene that dumps you in the middle of it. I know the game does that in other places as well -- it was quite similar to the Tzimisce boss fight who also teleports -- but the execution was clunky.

The guy who made the cutscene for me isn't very lucky about it too, but cutscenes in Bloodlines are not great most of the time. As for the teleporting, this is what Lasombra do and a similarity to the other fight was intended, both are Sabbat. Last not least I hope I explained a little bit better what was going on in the new levels that I introduced in the 9.5 patch...

I do agree with the criticisms related to Knox's dialog in front of the hospital; just because something is there doesn't mean it has to be put in somewhere.

Yeah, but I just love to not letting anything go to waste . Also would Knox really be so stupid and talk that way to you open on the streets? Sounds a bit like meta-gaming.

 

[Wesp5]

I'm reading a bit from the start, maybe I can explain some of the plus changes.

Blood Guardian is one of the most annoying fights in the game considering how early it takes place, it was much easier before Wesp tinkered with it, he removed the aggravated damage but increased damage output to compensate which made the fight harder.

As far as I remembered I was told that the claws the ghouls use at the mansion should't do aggravated damage because they are not magical, so I fixed that which had the side effect that the blood guardian weapons changed as he uses them as well.

Unarmed is also nerfed in patch plus as it was considerably more powerful than nearly all available early weapons which didn't make much sense.

This was changed because honestly how can fists do more damage than batons or tire irons? In the original game all the early melee weapons were useless! Also I disagree about an "intended" weapon progression mentioned here. To me it was always about choosing the fighting style that fits best to your character or playing style. Distributing XP first to unarmed, then melee and then ranged would have you end up with lots of wasted XP!

 

[Wesp5]

Yeah, I think it's mostly just the result of a very imposing NPC cast and a very limited voiceover, which makes a lot of the non-skill dialogue linear. So more often than not, the PC's dialogue lines just feel like they're lamely prompting the next paragraph from the NPC, or making a random quip which is usually ignored...

An interisting info about this for some of you maybe: Troika planned to have different player lines for all clans, the empty fields in the dialogue files are still there. In the end they only had time to do standard male/female lines and the crazy Malkavian answers...

 

[Prime Junta]

As far as I remembered I was told that the claws the ghouls use at the mansion should't do aggravated damage because they are not magical, so I fixed that which had the side effect that the blood guardian weapons changed as he uses them as well.

IMO it would've been better to leave both as they are. I doubt many people end up scrapping with the mansion ghouls anyway as they're so easy to stealth-kill, so it wouldn't have made much of a difference. Unless it's possible to just give Blood Guardian aggravated damage?

 

[laclongquan]

Straight from the horse' mouth.

Wesp demonstrate clearly why I have big problems with his work~