Revisiting VtM: Bloodlines

[Wesp5]

Speaking of Tremere, someone on Planet Vampire suggested to change their weakness for the plus patch, as the current one hardly is one with Bloodbuff available to increase all physical stats anyway. He want to have them buy physical and social stats at higher cost instead, as Tremere are treated with distrust in the whole vampire community. What do you think?

 

[Storyfag]

Thing is, a significant portion of the game's social checks is with mortals, and not with the vampire community.
The greater cost for physical stats should work though.

 

[Goral]

Speaking of Tremere, someone on Planet Vampire suggested to change their weakness for the plus patch, as the current one hardly is one with Bloodbuff available to increase all physical stats anyway. He want to have them buy physical and social stats at higher cost instead, as Tremere are treated with distrust in the whole vampire community. What do you think?

At this point you're making changes just for making changes, don't do that unless these changes will be optional. Because now we either can go with basic patch or plus patch that has many, many balance changes (many of them are for the worse IMO). I would like to see restored content for example, but seeing how you arbitrarily change so many things along with it makes it suboptimal. Is it so that the change log would be longer or what? You're wasting time on tweaking skill checks but won't make something like this: http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...al-patch-butthurt-thread.110677/#post-4703628

Handling Gimble quest is another example. Someone at Planet Vampire will suggest something and you're doing the change just because one person asked for it. WTF?

 

[Wesp5]

At this point you're making changes just for making changes, don't do that unless these changes will be optional.

My thoughts exactly. I came here with that suggestion because I had the very same feeling that someone is trying to convince me to do something that most people might not want! He explained it pretty good with PnP background, but then Bloodlines is far away from the PnP game in many aspects already AFAIK!

Because now we either can go with basic patch or plus patch that has many, many balance changes (many of them are for the worse IMO).

Even the plus patch has much fewer balance changes than you think. The restored disciplines can be disabled, the weapons are almost all the same and I don't think I touched the stats much at all, except for changing Bloodbuff, Stealth, Frenzy, Nosferatu detection and falling damage to make the game harder.

Handling Gimble quest is another example. Someone at Planet Vampire will suggest something and you're doing the change just because one person asked for it.

We have been over this here already. The change makes sense and I have now nerfed any idea of power-gaming that might have been behind it! A more differentiated installer is not possible from a pure technical point of view. It's difficult enough to not have basic and plus mess each other up...

 

[Momock]

Speaking of Tremere, someone on Planet Vampire suggested to change their weakness for the plus patch, as the current one hardly is one with Bloodbuff available to increase all physical stats anyway. He want to have them buy physical and social stats at higher cost instead, as Tremere are treated with distrust in the whole vampire community. What do you think?

It's a very good idea, but only for the physical stats (it's the original intention that Tremere have trouble with physical stats, not socials).

 

[Latelistener]

If you plan to do this maybe you should come up with a third version of the patch aka Double Plus, which would contain changes you will make, which has nothing to do with the game. To be honest, even some of the restored content is questionable. I have no idea how to determine which one is good, and which one isn't, unless you will have a long conversation with someone from Troika, but even then it will be highly subjective.

Personally, I would have listened someone who has a game design experience. All these Tessera zealots can only whine, but don't know and can't do shit themselves.

 

[makiavelli747]

The problem is not with Tremere's physical stats but with bloodbuff. So easy solution would be to delete it.

 

[Wesp5]

If you plan to do this maybe you should come up with a third version of the patch aka Double Plus, which would contain changes you will make, which has nothing to do with the game.

As I already wrote, this would be a lot of extra work as Bloodlines is hard to mod as it is and everyone would have a different opinion on what to include in what version...

To be honest, even some of the restored content is questionable.

Still most of this can just be ignored, like all of the new maps. Changing a basic weakness of a clan is something different! Corriguinech explained it like this on PV:

I've already explained that neither original nor modified disadvantage of Tremere is wholly PnP-compliant, as they don't have one in strict, mechanical sense. Newer systems such as VTR and V20 have something that can be adapted into an older PnP session, but we can't implement that either. The adjustment we're speaking about just more effective, and little less contrary to the source.

Tremere are just as creepy to the mortals, if only because the mortals can't quite put their finger on what exactly is wrong with them. At least with Nossies and Tzimisce the source of the horror is obvious. The empathic socialites among the Tremere, though present, are just as much of an oddity as a handsome Nosferatu of humanitarian Baali.

 

[Wesp5]

The problem is not with Tremere's physical stats but with bloodbuff. So easy solution would be to delete it.

That would change the balance of the game even more, although I already reduced the effect for the plus patch...

 

[makiavelli747]

although I already reduced the effect for the plus patch...

how? I don't actually remember...

That would change the balance of the game even more

It should be done. Even when I play Brujah or Gangrel I don't have a reason to raise physical stats. Bloodbuff is better than Potence...

 

[Latelistener]

As I already wrote, this would be a lot of extra work as Bloodlines is hard to mod as it is and everyone would have a different opinion on what to include in what version...

I'm talking only about the changes that weren't in the game (like the Gimble solution), but I'm fine either way, because I appreciate the work you, and other people have done over the years.

Changing a basic weakness of a clan is something different! Corriguinech explained it like this on PV:

On this I can only say that it's good if it helps to improve gameplay. Adding something just to please PnP fans or one particular person (not matter how good he explains it) is not wise.
I wish someone made a mod similar to GMDX to make combat, stealth and some other aspects of the game more enjoyable.

 

[Goral]

everyone would have a different opinion on what to include in what version...

True, but having 3 options instead of 2 is still better. But you've made it clear that you have no intention of doing that and I'm fine with that.

 

[Wesp5]

although I already reduced the effect for the plus patch...

how? I don't actually remember...

This is a very old change that was suggested by some PnP players early on: In the plus patch Bloodbuff only raises all physical stats by two and will not max them out as in the original game or basic. Tinkering with this is tricky as some locks rely on people being able to pick them with Bloodbuff even if they didn't invest in lockpicking at all and I think one of these is already in the tutorial...

 

[makiavelli747]

Tinkering with this is tricky as some locks rely on people being able to pick them with Bloodbuff even if they didn't invest in lockpicking at all and I think one of these is already in the tutorial...

Yeah, I know...
Tremere can't raise physical stats above 3 right? And with bloodbuff they still can get 5.
Well, then I would suggest to raise penalty to "not higher than 2 or 1" and maybe switch attributes priority to mental-social.

How high is lockpick check in tutorial, 3?
And second door as I recall in warrens?
Maybe you should increase bloodcost.

 

[Wesp5]

Tremere can't raise physical stats above 3 right? And with bloodbuff they still can get 5.

Yes, but all other clans can get two more points in all the related feats with Bloodbuff so this is still a disadvantage!

Well, then I would suggest to raise penalty to "not higher than 2 or 1" and maybe switch attributes priority to mental-social.

The main question is the same: Should I really tinker with stats on that basic a level? Isn't this exactly the arbitrary change people warn me about? I mean Tremere worked fine as they were for over ten years, I doubt a change is needed! Especially as clever players wont make physical based builds for Tremere anyway, but will rely on Thaumaturgy instead.

 

[aweigh]

Wesp5

any chance on modding in turn-based

 

[Wesp5]

Wesp5
any chance on modding in turn-based

Sorry, but I have no idea. I certainly won't do it...

 

[Momock]

Tremere can't raise physical stats above 3 right? And with bloodbuff they still can get 5.
Well, then I would suggest to raise penalty to "not higher than 2 or 1" and maybe switch attributes priority to mental-social.

They can't raise them above 4.
And the way you suggest it will be impossible to pick locks or to rise furtivity, I don't see what it has to do with being a wimp. What about 2 or 1 max penalty, but only for Strenght and Stamina? (you'll be kind of shit at melee combat but still good at the other things if you want)

PS: the only right solution for this game is to remake it from scratch. There's too much wrong things in there to fix it, we'll never see a "Give Me Bloodlines" mod.

 

[makiavelli747]

Yes, but all other clans can get two more points in all the related feats with Bloodbuff so this is still a disadvantage!

What the hell are you talking about, bloodbuff wouldn't increase physical stats above 5. That is why there is no disadvantage.

I mean Tremere worked fine as they were for over ten years

I think you are wrong person to make that kind of change, but bloodbuff is broken.

I doubt a change is needed

Well, even if we agree on something in vanilla is broken it doesn't mean change is needed.

the way you suggest it will be impossible to pick locks

picking locks should be optional. damn, it doesn't make any sense to put a door with lock if you can open it w/o investing in lockpicks...
plus, in tutorial there is a door with lockpick 3(or whatever) but in gallery noire quest - just 1.
and in any other quest in santa-monica investing in lockpicks doesn't make any sense... the whole skill is broken because of bloodbuff

 

[Momock]

Of course it's optional, and of course you should invest in lockpicks. But if you cap Dex at 1 you just don't have the choice to invest in it, therefore it's no longer optional.

Just sayin'

 

[makiavelli747]

But if you cap Dex at 1 you just don't have the choice to invest in it, therefore it's no longer optional.

I would say cap it at 2 and raise bloodbuff bloodcost to 4.
But even if to cap it at 1 its still lockpick 6 plus bloodbuff... but of course if you don't won't choice of clan to matter...

 

[Wesp5]

What the hell are you talking about, bloodbuff wouldn't increase physical stats above 5. That is why there is no disadvantage.

Oh yes it does, only you can't see it on the stats page. Give yourself 5 strength, do a Bloodbuff and compare the Unarmed and Melee feats before and after! As with all other magical buffs Bloodbuff can go beyond the normal limitations so Tremere will always have a disadvantage...

Well, even if we agree on something in vanilla is broken it doesn't mean change is needed.

Bloodbuff is not broken, it only makes the game easy which might have been the intention of Troika to make sure that even bad builds have a chance of finishing the game. Originally they planned seperate +1 buffs for all physical stats, but they merged them into one in the final game.

 

[Latelistener]

What the hell are you talking about, bloodbuff wouldn't increase physical stats above 5. That is why there is no disadvantage.

 

[makiavelli747]

Oh yes it does, only you can't see it on the stats page. Give yourself 5 strength, do a Bloodbuff and compare the Unarmed and Melee feats before and after!

No it isn't. When you use Potence with brawl 11 you will see how your stats increased in feats section. But Bloodbuff works differently, it doesn't add points, its just setting your physical attributes to 5(in vanilla).

I don't know if you changed how it works in plus patch, but I remember in Camarilla Edition mod - they make it work like usual discipline which adds points above strength/dexterity 5.

 

[Popiel]

This fat nolife posted his opinion on the game.