Rolling Vs Point-Buying

[Average Manatee]

If the game doesn't do something stupid, like letting you reassign individual points freely, rerolling can only help you so much with any realistic time investment. Sure, you can quite easily reroll character with max or close to max primary stat for the class you're planning, but they will have quirks that don't have much impact on overall archetype, but would have been ironed out as waste of extra points or deficiencies in secondary stats in point-buy.

That's wrong though, just look at the OP. 18/16/16/14/12/10, that's a 50 point buy, and you can get stuff like that in under 30 rolls most of the time, about a minute of rolling. A regular stat block looks like 16/14/13/12/8/8. Tell me how the first is somehow more 'quirky' than point buy? Sure, you can get some odd numbers, but they are functionally irrelevant other than looking different on the stat block.

Here's the first 10 rolls I got:
18/14/13/13/11/10
17/17/15/13/12/9
17/17/13/13/12/10
16/15/15/13/10/4
15/15/13/12/10/10
15/15/13/12/11/8
15/14/13/11/10/9
15/14/14/11/9/8
14/14/13/12/12/12
13/13/12/12/10/10

The only roll I would consider quirky is the /4 roll, but the change is irrelevant if its a warrior's CHA or something since its a total dump stat in ToEE (PnP doesn't have this problem, a warrior can take part in social settings and make use of a charisma stat). 7 of these are at or above what a point buy would get you, and I'd consider the first 4 to be quite overpowered if the game is balanced for a 25 point buy.

On my 13th roll I got:

18/17/16/16/16/8

Haha holy shit that's OP. That's like a 60 point buy or something.

 

[Lhynn]

18/16/16/14/12/10,
18/14/13/13/11/10
17/17/15/13/12/9
17/17/13/13/12/10
16/15/15/13/10/4
15/15/13/12/10/10
15/15/13/12/11/8
15/14/13/11/10/9
15/14/14/11/9/8
14/14/13/12/12/12
13/13/12/12/10/10
18/17/16/16/16/8

Seriously bro, no one gives a shit, you play a game to have fun, not to have a balanced experience.

 

[Raghar]

So a little question. When you have 4d6 drop lowest roll, and you need 5 nice rolls from 6, how many rolls do you need for 14+ 15+ 17+?

Boys show your mathematical prowess.

 

[deuxhero]

Also, cRPG context. It's GRPGD, not Gazebo.

But table top RPGs is where it originated.

 

[Daemongar]

3. Eliminating stats altogether (Diablo III, Skyrim, Fallout 4, etc.) and turn game into clickfest, FPS, or interactive movie.

"Eliminating stats" *gives examples of 3 games with stats*

Some folks aren't English speakers, so I'll make this a little easier to grasp.
Diablo III - you can't select or modify your stats. So, it's not roll or point buy. Points are static. Not too difficult... and then we go to...
Skyrim - stats? Are you arguing that magika, stamina, and whatever are stats? Can you select them or modify them at start up or are they static?
Fallout 4 - Stats lead to less and less of a unique experience with each iteration (that is, with each new version of Fallout, the stats get progressively meaningless.) But you are correct, it does have stats.

So I'll give you 50% - Full credit for Fallout 4, partial credit for Diablo III, and nothing for Skyrim. It's still a failing grade, so I took away your smug smiley as well.

 

[Mastermind]

Diablo III - you can't select or modify your stats. So, it's not roll or point buy. Points are static. Not too difficult... and then we go to...

Wrong.

Skyrim - stats? Are you arguing that magika, stamina, and whatever are stats? Can you select them or modify them at start up or are they static?

The fact that you can't modify them at the start doesn't mean they're not stats (you can modify them anyway, just not directly, some races get more stats)

Fallout 4 - Stats lead to less and less of a unique experience with each iteration (that is, with each new version of Fallout, the stats get progressively meaningless.) But you are correct, it does have stats.

The stats in Fallout 4 are more important than they were in 3/NV... They're more useful in and of themselves too.

Why would you give me partial credit for Diablo 3 but not skyrim when skyrim's stat distribution gives the player a lot more control than Diablo 3?

BTW, the word you're looking for is "attributes", not "stats". Skills are stats, as are perks and attributes. Skyrim has plenty of skills and perks even if the attribute system is lackluster.

 

[Scroo]

Point buy might make more sense in computer games but fuck it, rolling is just way more fun. Even if, no ESPECIALLY because you can cheese it for hours until you get a near perfect char.

 

[Excidium II]

If you're rerolling like a bitch until you get a perfect char then there is no point in rolling at all.

 

[Scroo]

If you're rerolling like a bitch until you get a perfect char then there is no point in rolling at all.

If the game rewards you for excessive rerolling like wizardry does then there is

Altho of course in wizardry you don't roll your attributes but roll the bonus points instead so it's kind of a mixture.

 

[Excidium II]

It's just choosing your difficulty level.

 

[Anac'raxus]

I'd like to try some sort of combo between the two at some point. A system where the player can chose (or let the RNG choose) from a set of class/archetype standard arrays, then roll for a strength and a weakness.

Point buy might make more sense in computer games but fuck it, rolling is just way more fun. Even if, no ESPECIALLY because you can cheese it for hours until you get a near perfect char.

I can see the point of wanting characters that are super-duper but not completely flavorless sets of perfect 18s, but I'd like to see explicit support for that by either letting the player pick the desired total score and let random rolls distribute the points to each ability or set the minimums and maximums allowed for each ability before rolling. Why punish us obsessive compulsive types unnecessarily by requiring lots of re-rolls? Oh, yeah, just having the game save the highest total score from a set of a player determined number of rolls would work too (let the player see the roll log, too).

 

[Lhynn]

Eh, you can always limit the variable ranges so that perfect scores are impossible to achieve, what matters is that point distribution in general would be fairly unpredictible and that youd end up with a unique character. Hidden feats and perks would also be cool, passive or active bonuses that you would discover through gameplay.

 

[Excidium II]

Random chargen in a computer game really is beyond retarded.

 

[Black_Willow]

Rolling is ok but only if you pick your class afterwards. Otherwise you can end up with nonsense like a 4 INT mage.

 

[Gregz]

I always prefer rolling, because in a way it's a kind of xp grind vs. RNG that rewards you for your time.

Ofc you can always just roll a few times and do that too, player choice.

Point-buy systems force you to make specialists. Good luck getting a non-gimped Paladin with a point-buy system.

 

[Lhynn]

Random chargen in a computer game really is beyond retarded.

elaborate.
I think it adds a lot to the game and takes nothing from it.

 

[Excidium II]

Random chargen in a computer game really is beyond retarded.

elaborate.
I think it adds a lot to the game and takes nothing from it.

Because as evident by this thread, players just reroll until they get what they want, or as close to what they want as their patience allows. When the whole point of rolling is making what you can of the character fate gives you.

Which is funny when you consider that D&D CRPGs already cheated at the rolls by design, Goldbox games probably being the worst in this regard. And people still need to reroll and reroll and reroll.

 

[Lhynn]

Because as evident by this thread, players just reroll until they get what they want, or as close to what they want as their patience allows. When the whole point of rolling is making what you can of the character fate gives you.

Which is funny when you consider that D&D CRPGs already cheated at the rolls by design. Goldbox games probably being the worst in this regard.

Im talking about random perks and skills that you discover in the game, not at the start of it. Stuff that adds to your character, like affinity to magic even if you are not an spellcaster, which could prompt you to invest on spellcasting and end up with a completely different character than what you first envisioned.
You know, like life, shit happens and you alter your plans. The same but with a systemic approach.

 

[Excidium II]

I did say chargen.

 

[Alex]

Random chargen in a computer game really is beyond retarded.

elaborate.
I think it adds a lot to the game and takes nothing from it.

Because as evident by this thread, players just reroll until they get what they want, or as close to what they want as their patience allows. When the whole point of rolling is making what you can of the character fate gives you.

Which is funny when you consider that D&D CRPGs already cheated at the rolls by design, Goldbox games probably being the worst in this regard. And people still need to reroll and reroll and reroll.

They still can work, if the player is willing to have some discipline. In particular, it can work really well in roguelikes.

 

[Manmower]

They still can work, if the player is willing to have some discipline.

 

[Lhynn]

I did say chargen.

Well, theyd be determined on chargen. so you dont have a reload point to try to get something else. You just would discover them tru gameplay.

 

[Excidium II]

They still can work, if the player is willing to have some discipline. In particular, it can work really well in roguelikes.

The problem is that if you have discipline you don't know if the developer expected you to reroll like everyone else and the game is unwinnable because of your gimp party. Roguelikes are different story.

 

[Mozg]

Bring back the default party from M&M games so we can see what constitutes decent stats/composition and small children/game journalists can mash on the controls and the game does stuff instead of dumping them into a long character creation

 

[Zombra]

Using P&P rules for a CRPG is stupid.

If you want random power variance in your CRPG to make PCs more varied and interesting, start the game with characters at a low baseline and then give them random (but seeded) gains as they level up.

That's just off the top of my head. If you don't like it, think of some other way to achieve the effect you want that is appropriate for the context. Don't just use P&P mechanics straight up and assume it will be fine, because the two environments are very different and require different systems to make them actually fun. What's good for the goose is not always etc.