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Rome Total War II

Brinko

Arcane
Joined
May 7, 2012
Messages
884
Is there any info on if they are going to do more region specific units? I know they tried to emulate that from of the more complex mods in ETW but it never really went anywhere as most of those units were shit or were outclassed by something better you already unlocked? Also are they going to do special faction buildings or do the lasting wonders of the ancient world like in RTW? All they've been talking about is this inter factional shit which will probably get metagamed around in the first 3 days of release and how things will be unique again guys, pinkie promise.
 

Trash

Pointing and laughing.
Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
29,683
Location
About 8 meters beneath sea level.
Nothing on that. They did mention a shitload of different units before, but that number mentioned was so high it probably partains to units being basically the same but part of a different faction in the same culture group. Don't think all factions will have the same buildings btw. TW: Rome's factions differed quite a lot from romans, greeks, carthaginians to gauls. It does seem that they've got a number of culture groups and divided these into lots of smaller factions. Will prolly also mean a shitload of faction dlc a la Shogun II.

So far it seems for sure we'll get a similar focus on artstyle as in their latest, a bit of work done on the UI, line of sight becoming a factor during battles, lots of factions within a few overarching culture (greek cities, germanic tribes and so on) groups, different battle objectives, ships and land combat coming together, several custom made cities to fight over and an evolution of the earlier faction mechanics from FotS. Oh, and fuckloads of dlc.

Do myself wonder if the city maps will show evolving buildings or wether they'll cut this out for handmade but static maps. I did really enjoy seeing the stuff I build in towns show up during battles in RTW and MTW2. Their engine has grown a fuckload more static since then though.
 

spectre

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
5,603
Not hoping for good AI, but I'd like to see something that cheats less blatantly than Shogun 2.
Depends on how they tackle the campaign map and provinces system. With some luck, they won't throw the baby with the bathwater while they're dicking around with it.
 

Trash

Pointing and laughing.
Joined
Dec 12, 2002
Messages
29,683
Location
About 8 meters beneath sea level.
cheats less blatantly than Shogun 2.

Someone made an AI mod that basically disabled the free units and free unit upgrade cheats for the AI. It still had production bonuses and so on but at least it couldn't turn stacks of lower tier units into elite samurai thingies in the campaign map fog of war. Never really impacted gameplay for me but did mean the AI only had units it could actually produce and the game became a shitload more enjoyable through it. Shame the modder took off after the first versions and never updated it for FotS and RotS.
 

Raghar

Arcane
Vatnik
Joined
Jul 16, 2009
Messages
24,070
Actually updating it for FoTS would be bit problem, because CA did shit work and updated files randomly over old installation, thus original game obtained several bugs. But, FotS was working and that was what people "paid" for... In addition it's PITA to obtain pirated version (fully patched) of FotS, it's basically only what users did themselves pirate groups, with exception of two exceptions, didn't give a shit. So said modder probably don't have working copy of FotS. BTW Trash why don't you modify it yourself?
 

spectre

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
5,603
I tried that mod, will be keeping it on the HD forever and ever. Shame about it being discontinued, as the AI cheating was pretty inane. Why bother with having a campaign map at all, if the AI just conjures up high level stuff out of thin air is beyond me. I had to abuse ninjas to keep the WTFs down.
 

Konjad

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i hope this TW will have a proper well done multiplayer for once. That's more interesting for me than campaign.
 

KoolNoodles

Arcane
Joined
Apr 28, 2012
Messages
3,545
Yeah, they've been promising a proper multiplayer campaign since ETW, and gave up even on the game they said it was going to be implemented for(that would be ETW). It's not even a "oh we ran out of time" issue for CA anymore, they can't even follow through on promised features years after release, and even when they do it's usually half-assed. NTW was a streamlined blatant money grab, STW2 showed promise because they didn't lie about so much stuff and the game actually worked, with halfway decent implementation of the combat side of multiplayer(honed in NTW), and a "fun for about a month" clan warfare feature. Campaign multiplayer still has issues.

The main negative that overshadows all of their games since MTW2 however, is how they treat the community and mods. They basically just raised up their middle finger to the main driving force behind their games' longevity and persistent free press. Since STW mods have kept their games alive, breathing new life into them on a daily basis. Of course we don't expect perfection, of course the AI can be and has been shit, but what they used to do right is give a pretty decent template and let the community have at it. Now, with DLC they have shown they don't really give a shit about that anymore.

The ability to mod the game should be the main selling point for anyone who has any interest in whatever games they offer in the future. If they block off key files and make it hard as hell to mod, everyone should look elsewhere because the base game you are getting will be at best above average and not worth what they are selling it for. If they open it up to modding, then the game they are offering will repay itself 10x over, with years and years of fun and interesting gameplay. Look at MTW2. The game is seven years old, and modders managed to make a better LotR strategy game from it than anything that has been offered by any major studio. Yeah, LotR is not everyone's cup of tea, but that's just an example of the potential their games can have if accessible.
 

Akarnir

Educated
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
218
I'm still surprised that they haven't revamped their fundamentally flawed coding : the whole unit system on the battle map is still clunky as hell. Granted, no game actually managed to come up with a decent code, but at least the improvement should be more significant since Medieval 2.

In shogun 1, medieval 1, and rome 1, it wasn't noticeable, because the unit just had one attack, and 2 unit would simply charge each other straight and quickly spam their attack until one of them falls down.
There wasn't a lot of soldier, less than 3 ranks, so it just looked like everyone was active.

But as soon as they introduced animations and more soldiers in unit, all went wrong. Now most of the soldiers stand in a constipated position, 10 meters away from the fighting line. The actual figthing line is composed of less than 10 soldiers, all waiting their turn to enter their attack animation sequence, then go back to idle position if they are still alive.
They can't just all charge at once, in an accurate combat mess, with everyone trying to land their weapon on an enemy. They are way too passive.

Unit has no cohesion whatsoever, if a cavalry flank them, the guys on the flank won't even react, and the guys behind them will simply be pushed away, sliding awkwardly on the grass. While all the soldiers on the side that is being flanked should all jump on the fucking horses as soon as they lost their momentum.

The soldiers in an unit are one dimensional : they can only focus on one task, One enemy unit. And most soldiers just wait for their turn to come, like basketball players on the bank.

EDIT : Telling this after seeing the alpha gameplay footage (alpha means that such a fundamental code can't be changed).
 
Self-Ejected

Brayko

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Medieval 2 had majestic combat, even vanilla wasn't that bad, too bad the campaign sucked.

Anyway, doesn't look like they're adding any overhauls to the series, just a few minor tweaks. The biggest change seems to be siege battles, and improving(?) ambushes. I really wanted them to give the campaign a revamp though because it kinda needs it. I'm really getting tired of turn-based strategy especially how I have far more fun with any much-lower-budget Paradox title.
 

BlackAdderBG

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I really wanted them to give the campaign a revamp though because it kinda needs it. I'm really getting tired of turn-based strategy especially how I have far more fun with any much-lower-budget Paradox title.

No.They need to go back to the original Medieval movement on the campaign map.
 
Self-Ejected

Brayko

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Actually that would be better, they never should have changed that formula to begin with because it worked great for the series, they should have just expanded on it. I'll fist you for that one (no homo).
 

Akarnir

Educated
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
218
Medieval 2 had majestic combat, even vanilla wasn't that bad, too bad the campaign sucked.

Anyway, doesn't look like they're adding any overhauls to the series, just a few minor tweaks. The biggest change seems to be siege battles, and improving(?) ambushes. I really wanted them to give the campaign a revamp though because it kinda needs it. I'm really getting tired of turn-based strategy especially how I have far more fun with any much-lower-budget Paradox title.
No it was mosty clunky and buggy.
When 99 soldiers will refuse to move because one faggot is engaging the enemy, that's fucking stupid. When half your men don't even charge properly, staying back and going at different speed, that's also stupid.
When a unit enters combat, all the soldier go in retardo/combat stance, meaning they all enter slow mo mode were they walk like fucking slug. Which means 3/4 of your soldiers look completely retard and constipated because they aren't even fighting. Also if you have troop far behind, they won't run to return normal position : they will walk in combat stance.

Your 100 archer unit on the wall stops shooting altogether , because one single brave enemy soldier has reached them. Instead of swarming him, they will fight him 1 by one, or 2 at best, meaning he can decimate the whole battalion if he's lucky.
When you so called elite knight get raped by peasant, because their attack animation gets interrupted each time by the quicker attacking peasant. It happens when these kinghts are fewer in numbers than the peasant (meaning several peasant per knight). And it's fucking retarded.

When your cavalry stays immobile after a charge, won't retreat, and get poked to death by those levies pikeman. When your fucking unit won't charge properly in the city, because the buildings fucks the micro pathfinding.

I could go on and on.
 

oscar

Arcane
Joined
Aug 30, 2008
Messages
8,058
Location
NZ
Yeah the combat animations seem to have caused more problems than they're worth.
 

Akarnir

Educated
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
218
Yeah the combat animations seem to have caused more problems than they're worth.

In my opinion it was too early. Technology and coding algorithm weren't advanced enough. Also it was impossible to find any senior programmer with experience in such coding, because creative assembly is pretty much the only developer doing that kind of thing (tell me if I'm wrong, I've simply never seen any other good game with 3D battles of this scale).

I say, in 5-10 years, with the exponential coding progress, they should be able to make the whole thing work flawlessly. I hope it's already the case, but from my experience with the previous warscape (shogun 2) and what I've seen of the pre-alpha footage, they are still flawed.
However, it does seem like it's more fluid in the footage. It seems. Maybe it's simply because they've handpicked the footage so that the clunkiness doesn't show up too much. Or maybe it's genuine footage. Or a bit of both. Who knows . One can assume they've made progress, but how much?
 

Malakal

Arcane
Glory to Ukraine
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Nov 14, 2009
Messages
10,672
Location
Poland
Medieval 2 had majestic combat, even vanilla wasn't that bad, too bad the campaign sucked.

Anyway, doesn't look like they're adding any overhauls to the series, just a few minor tweaks. The biggest change seems to be siege battles, and improving(?) ambushes. I really wanted them to give the campaign a revamp though because it kinda needs it. I'm really getting tired of turn-based strategy especially how I have far more fun with any much-lower-budget Paradox title.
No it was mosty clunky and buggy.
When 99 soldiers will refuse to move because one faggot is engaging the enemy, that's fucking stupid. When half your men don't even charge properly, staying back and going at different speed, that's also stupid.
When a unit enters combat, all the soldier go in retardo/combat stance, meaning they all enter slow mo mode were they walk like fucking slug. Which means 3/4 of your soldiers look completely retard and constipated because they aren't even fighting. Also if you have troop far behind, they won't run to return normal position : they will walk in combat stance.

Your 100 archer unit on the wall stops shooting altogether , because one single brave enemy soldier has reached them. Instead of swarming him, they will fight him 1 by one, or 2 at best, meaning he can decimate the whole battalion if he's lucky.
When you so called elite knight get raped by peasant, because their attack animation gets interrupted each time by the quicker attacking peasant. It happens when these kinghts are fewer in numbers than the peasant (meaning several peasant per knight). And it's fucking retarded.

When your cavalry stays immobile after a charge, won't retreat, and get poked to death by those levies pikeman. When your fucking unit won't charge properly in the city, because the buildings fucks the micro pathfinding.

I could go on and on.

Only you can avoid all those issues by, you know, issuing orders like a general should.

Set archers to guard mode and they will fire even in mellee and wont break formation. Set pikemen to guard mode and they will make a pike wall which wont move.

Order troops to move behind enemies on walls and they will swarm them. If you click on them they only attack the nearest one. Logical isnt it.

Peasants did rape knights all the time as history teaches us, yes, by surrounding them and picking them off. Dont let your knights get surrounded. You can move them away when engaged and charge again. I charged my units of cavalry up to 12 times in one battle. During the battle of Kirholm Polish cavalry charged swedes 16 times. Thats how it works. They will be single men strangled and poked to death but who cares.

I like how the game represents problems with command during battles, with orders inertia and units unwilling to follow your will. Play Starcraft if you want to just move your dudes and kill other dudes.
 

Emily

Arcane
Joined
Mar 21, 2012
Messages
3,068
yeah original Medieval was for me the best TW ever. Even AI didn't suck too much.
 

Borelli

Arcane
Joined
Dec 5, 2012
Messages
1,305
In shogun/medieval 1 there is only a limited number of provinces instead of every square except mountains being passable, i wonder if that makes it easier to code the strategic map AI.
 

Konjad

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Strap Yourselves In Codex Year of the Donut Codex+ Now Streaming! Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
In shogun/medieval 1 there is only a limited number of provinces instead of every square except mountains being passable, i wonder if that makes it easier to code the strategic map AI.
If you need to wonder about such things then I wonder how do you cope with everyday life.
 

Akarnir

Educated
Joined
Feb 10, 2013
Messages
218
Peasants did rape knights all the time as history teaches us, yes, by surrounding them and picking them off. Dont let your knights get surrounded. You can move them away when engaged and charge again. I charged my units of cavalry up to 12 times in one battle. During the battle of Kirholm Polish cavalry charged swedes 16 times. Thats how it works. They will be single men strangled and poked to death but who cares.

I like how the game represents problems with command during battles, with orders inertia and units unwilling to follow your will. Play Starcraft if you want to just move your dudes and kill other dudes.

''Play X if you want to have your noobish experience''.
No. You can do better than that.
Don't get me started on the cavalry. That is not how it worked. It depended on the conditions, momentum... But if the cavalry succeeded in their charge, they could literally swarm an entire enemy battalion. Because a horse + kinght at high speed = Big weight. And I'm not assuming that from the battle of Minas Tirith.

Funny thing is CA have admitted that their previous unit cohesion system were clunky, meaning your client has already pleaded guilty. THat is why there is a significant difference in soldier behavior between Medieval And Shogun 2. This is also why light cavalry charge in shogun 2 has 5 times more momentum, and a much more realistic penetration than the failure that was medieval 2 cavalry charge ( a well known critiqued point of the game).

As for foot knights, that was retarded. Those fully armored shock troops were not supposed to flank. They were supposed to be shock troops, and were meant to take on multiple enemies. And the peasant picking problem came from the bugged system, where the attack calculations of the knight didn't worked properly, and he would get confused : not attack, move weirdly, periodically lifting his sword to get intently interrupted. And it sometimes happened with only one peasant against him.

''with orders inertia and units unwilling to follow your will.''. No again that's stupid. That's a coding accident from CA. They are trying to fix it in this new rome by allowing you to click repeatedly to issue a quick displacement. Your calvary is just standing there (because it's attack code is almost inexistent), after having charged, letting himself be poked while agitating his sword every 15 seconds. That isn't representing anything at all. All the cavalry men should be willing to be on the move at all time (they should also attack properly), and willingly retreat to charge again.
Soldiers often end up being stuck in their attack stance, spread over the place, and will take 2 minutes to return to their normal positions, one by one (they aren't even fighting).

Combat in cities was an horrible cluster-fuck. THey wouldn't even charge when the streets were to small. They would spread in a glitch way, stop, then 4 or 5 would detach and slowly walk toward the enemy (constipated stance). They would get glitched in the stairs to get to the walls. When 3-4 soldiers were still engaging on the other level, they would wait for them (super realistic) in constipated stance, and mass in front of the stairs, on the other level. No way to make them move from this position. Sometimes I would also order soldiers to get on the wall : they can't rush the stairs, each soldiers slowly detach himself from the ranks, and slowly walks toward the stairs.
Worst was when 2 differents unit had to use a ladder = everybody freeze, 1 soldier every 20 seconds climb the ladder.

Assuming you have to nerf your control over those soldiers because generals couldn't instantly issue order is stupid. Because back then, lords were actually in charge of chunks of the army, and would issue orders themselves. Back then, all soldiers weren't attached to each other by a weird telepathic rope, making them unable to move properly, without being bind by each 99 soldiers telepathic connection.

And back then, when they would charge, they would actually charge. When a general says : ''charge those faggots right in front'' they would charge properly, not creat some sort of tin frontline were 10 soldiers engage in turn based combat, while the others stay behind, seemingly taking a dump.

That's fairly difficult to describe most situation, because it's so convolutedly fucked up that it's difficult to find a pattern or coherence in the glitchyness. Overall the problem came from the unit cohesion coding. Each soldiers of a unit is obviously connected to that unit, with his movement and attack linked to the others. That failed synchronization was what was causing all those issues.
And also the fact that the attacking soldiers were not very active for a bunch of guys fighting for their live.
 

spectre

Arcane
Joined
Oct 26, 2008
Messages
5,603
In shogun/medieval 1 there is only a limited number of provinces instead of every square except mountains being passable, i wonder if that makes it easier to code the strategic map AI.
If you need to wonder about such things then I wonder how do you cope with everyday life.
Konjad rolls for spot sarcasm...

and fails critically.

Would you like to roll again?
 
Self-Ejected

Brayko

Self-Ejected
Joined
Feb 11, 2012
Messages
5,540
Location
United States of America
Medieval 2 had majestic combat, even vanilla wasn't that bad, too bad the campaign sucked.

Anyway, doesn't look like they're adding any overhauls to the series, just a few minor tweaks. The biggest change seems to be siege battles, and improving(?) ambushes. I really wanted them to give the campaign a revamp though because it kinda needs it. I'm really getting tired of turn-based strategy especially how I have far more fun with any much-lower-budget Paradox title.
No it was mosty clunky and buggy.
When 99 soldiers will refuse to move because one faggot is engaging the enemy, that's fucking stupid. When half your men don't even charge properly, staying back and going at different speed, that's also stupid.
When a unit enters combat, all the soldier go in retardo/combat stance, meaning they all enter slow mo mode were they walk like fucking slug. Which means 3/4 of your soldiers look completely retard and constipated because they aren't even fighting. Also if you have troop far behind, they won't run to return normal position : they will walk in combat stance.

Your 100 archer unit on the wall stops shooting altogether , because one single brave enemy soldier has reached them. Instead of swarming him, they will fight him 1 by one, or 2 at best, meaning he can decimate the whole battalion if he's lucky.
When you so called elite knight get raped by peasant, because their attack animation gets interrupted each time by the quicker attacking peasant. It happens when these kinghts are fewer in numbers than the peasant (meaning several peasant per knight). And it's fucking retarded.

When your cavalry stays immobile after a charge, won't retreat, and get poked to death by those levies pikeman. When your fucking unit won't charge properly in the city, because the buildings fucks the micro pathfinding.

I could go on and on.


You obviously don't know anything about unit cohesion and, well, looking at the big picture or else you wouldn't be ignorantly (and incorrectly imo) scraping off the micro flaws that somehow project into your brain.
 

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