Community RPG Codex 2020 GOTY - VOTE NOW!

[Ol' Willy]

and then people will start giving it neutral ratings like tldr, prosper, balanced and doggy.

For the purpose of the thread, all ratings except "brofist" or "agree" will be ignored. Easy.

 

[NJClaw]

but I fear that it will backfire into a gigantic list and a lot of drama about "what's an RPG".

You start a thread; someone submits the game, the others brofist if agree. Then, you sort posts with brofist counter and select posts if minimal threshold is achieved. Jeebus, that's how Ultimate Guitar does nomination threads for years.

That sounds like an awfully easy way for DarkUnderlord to make Marvel's Avengers win the Codex GOTY by being the only candidate.

 

[thesheeep]

Next year we'll do the nomination thread for 1 month, but I fear that it will backfire into a gigantic list and a lot of drama

As it should be on the Codex.
We have a reputation to uphold.

 

[samuraigaiden]

I agree with the exclusion of Hades for 2 reasons.

1st, some people keep drooling over every release by Supergiant games, especially in the mainstream media and resettera (or whatever it’s called) type forums but the ones I was tricked by this hype train into playing were all mediocre.

2nd, and most importantly, I specifically remember circa 2012 when Bastion came out and the entire discourse around it in many places was how it was a great RPG, a refreshing take on the genre, a game with innovative ideas... and when I played it, my reaction was “WTF is this shit?” The game was not an RPG by any stretch, it was a an absolutely run of the mill top down action game of the likes the SNES and Genesis had several examples, with very repetitive gameplay, color swapped enemies, an extremely simple skill unlock system.

Basically, I do not trust the people who are jacking off to Hades right now.

 

[lukaszek]

I agree with the exclusion of Hades for 2 reasons.

1st, some people keep drooling over every release by Supergiant games, especially in the mainstream media and resettera (or whatever it’s called) type forums but the ones I was tricked by this hype train into playing were all mediocre.

2nd, and most importantly, I specifically remember circa 2012 when Bastion came out and the entire discourse around it in many places was how it was a great RPG, a refreshing take on the genre, a game with innovative ideas... and when I played it, my reaction was “WTF is this shit?” The game was not an RPG by any stretch, it was a an absolutely run of the mill top down action game of the likes the SNES and Genesis had several examples, with very repetitive gameplay, color swapped enemies, an extremely simple skill unlock system.

Basically, I do not trust the people who are jacking off to Hades right now.

hades is actually weird one. It feels like rpg but when you look closely there is nothing to support such claim.

its also very good, not too random

 

[Efe]

supergiant makes action games with visual novel sprinkled in.
most of them are great but not an rpg

 

[Darth Canoli]

I'll run this one until the end and post the results, the Codex staff can decide what to do with it.

If you print it, please send me a couple of copies, i'm running out of toilet paper...

 

[Wunderbar]

hades is actually weird one. It feels like rpg but when you look closely there is nothing to support such claim.

its also very good, not too random

rogue-lite being "not too random" is a bad thing tho

 

[lukaszek]

hades is actually weird one. It feels like rpg but when you look closely there is nothing to support such claim.

its also very good, not too random

rogue-lite being "not too random" is a bad thing tho

its all about controlling randomness factor

 

[Citizen]

not too random

Hades is a deterministic roguelike

 

[Thac0]

I agree with the exclusion of Hades for 2 reasons.

1st, some people keep drooling over every release by Supergiant games, especially in the mainstream media and resettera (or whatever it’s called) type forums but the ones I was tricked by this hype train into playing were all mediocre.

2nd, and most importantly, I specifically remember circa 2012 when Bastion came out and the entire discourse around it in many places was how it was a great RPG, a refreshing take on the genre, a game with innovative ideas... and when I played it, my reaction was “WTF is this shit?” The game was not an RPG by any stretch, it was a an absolutely run of the mill top down action game of the likes the SNES and Genesis had several examples, with very repetitive gameplay, color swapped enemies, an extremely simple skill unlock system.

Basically, I do not trust the people who are jacking off to Hades right now.

The only Supergiant game that is an RPG is Transistor because

1. Your character does not get reset per run, so builds are possible
2. You can play the entire game turn based with the right build

Sadly after that they made Pyre instead of experimenting more with rpg mechanics, which is a fucking sports game.
But alas, at least the indies are creative.

 

[Mortmal]

but I fear that it will backfire into a gigantic list and a lot of drama about "what's an RPG".

You start a thread; someone submits the game, the others brofist if agree. Then, you sort posts with brofist counter and select posts if minimal threshold is achieved. Jeebus, that's how Ultimate Guitar does nomination threads for years.

How about those who were unfairly amputated of their fists while not infringing any rules at all ?

 

[Konjad]

Why even have 2020 GotY if everything is shit this year?

 

[NJClaw]

Why even have 2020 GotY if everything is shit this year?

For posterity.

 

[Citizen]

1. Your character does not get reset per run, so builds are possible

You have 2 different progressions systems in hades: one is perks/weapon updates that are permanent and do not reset between runs, the other is boons that are randomly found during the run and lost on death

 

[Thac0]

You have 2 different progressions systems in hades: one is perks/weapon updates that are permanent and do not reset between runs, the other is boons that are randomly found during the run and lost on death

All the permanent progression is purely positive and only kicks in very late. The closest you get is different subtypes of weapons, but I think you can even swap those.
It is impossible to make a Hades savegame have a build, on every run you start you have all possible playstiles in the game available to you in the weapon and boon window room.
This is obviously good for a roguelike or a roguelite, which Hades is, but bad for an RPG. Because if there is no build possibility it is not an rpg.

 

[A horse of course]

Next year we'll do the nomination thread for 1 month, but I fear that it will backfire into a gigantic list and a lot of drama about "what's an RPG".

Abuses Of Speech
To these Uses, there are also foure correspondent Abuses. First, when men register their thoughts wrong, by the inconstancy of the signification of their words; by which they register for their conceptions, that which they never conceived; and so deceive themselves. Secondly, when they use words metaphorically; that is, in other sense than that they are ordained for; and thereby deceive others. Thirdly, when by words they declare that to be their will, which is not. Fourthly, when they use them to grieve one another: for seeing nature hath armed living creatures, some with teeth, some with horns, and some with hands, to grieve an enemy, it is but an abuse of Speech, to grieve him with the tongue, unlesse it be one whom wee are obliged to govern; and then it is not to grieve, but to correct and amend.

The manner how Speech serveth to the remembrance of the consequence of causes and effects, consisteth in the imposing of Names, and the Connexion of them.
...
By this it appears how necessary it is for any man that aspires to true Knowledge, to examine the Definitions of former Authors; and either to correct them, where they are negligently set down; or to make them himselfe. For the errours of Definitions multiply themselves, according as the reckoning proceeds; and lead men into absurdities, which at last they see, but cannot avoyd, without reckoning anew from the beginning; in which lyes the foundation of their errours. From whence it happens, that they which trust to books, do as they that cast up many little summs into a greater, without considering whether those little summes were rightly cast up or not; and at last finding the errour visible, and not mistrusting their first grounds, know not which way to cleere themselves; but spend time in fluttering over their bookes; as birds that entring by the chimney, and finding themselves inclosed in a chamber, flitter at the false light of a glasse window, for want of wit to consider which way they came in. So that in the right Definition of Names, lyes the first use of Speech; which is the Acquisition of Science: And in wrong, or no Definitions' lyes the first abuse; from which proceed all false and senslesse Tenets; which make those men that take their instruction from the authority of books, and not from their own meditation, to be as much below the condition of ignorant men, as men endued with true Science are above it. For between true Science, and erroneous Doctrines, Ignorance is in the middle. Naturall sense and imagination, are not subject to absurdity. Nature it selfe cannot erre: and as men abound in copiousnesse of language; so they become more wise, or more mad than ordinary. Nor is it possible without Letters for any man to become either excellently wise, or (unless his memory be hurt by disease, or ill constitution of organs) excellently foolish. For words are wise mens counters, they do but reckon by them: but they are the mony of fooles, that value them by the authority of an Aristotle, a Cicero, or a Thomas, or any other Doctor whatsoever, if but a man.
...
The first cause of Absurd conclusions I ascribe to the want of Method; in that they begin not their Ratiocination from Definitions; that is, from settled significations of their words: as if they could cast account, without knowing the value of the numerall words, One, Two, and Three.

And whereas all bodies enter into account upon divers considerations, (which I have mentioned in the precedent chapter) these considerations being diversly named, divers absurdities proceed from the confusion, and unfit connexion of their names into assertions.
...
To conclude, The Light of humane minds is Perspicuous Words, but by exact definitions first snuffed, and purged from ambiguity; Reason is the Pace; Encrease of Science, the Way; and the Benefit of man-kind, the End. And on the contrary, Metaphors, and senslesse and ambiguous words, are like Ignes Fatui; and reasoning upon them, is wandering amongst innumerable absurdities; and their end, contention, and sedition, or contempt.

- Thomas Hobbes, Leviathan

 

[Roguey]

I know Hades is loved around here, I also think it was probably the best game of the year, but - and I know this is subjective and will open a giant can of worms - I think it's a game mostly about twitch skills, descending from games like Spelunky and especially Binding of Isaac.

DU figured this out years ago - if it's marketed as an RPG, it is one. Hades's Steam page:

Genre: Action Games, Indie, RPG

 

[Citizen]

All the permanent progression is purely positive and only kicks in very late. The closest you get is different subtypes of weapons, but I think you can even swap those.
It is impossible to make a Hades savegame have a build, on every run you start you have all possible playstiles in the game available to you in the weapon and boon window room.
This is obviously good for a roguelike or a roguelite, which Hades is, but bad for an RPG. Because if there is no build possibility it is not an rpg.

You can affect your build by choosing a pendant of a corresponding god
Permanent progression forces you to choose between two sets of exclusive perks, that can alter your gameplay
Different builds and weapons in hades vary the gameplay a lot, as opposed to some of the "true rpgs" where a different build just affects the color of the attack damage numbers that pop up when you clock on enemies

 

[Thac0]

All the permanent progression is purely positive and only kicks in very late. The closest you get is different subtypes of weapons, but I think you can even swap those.
It is impossible to make a Hades savegame have a build, on every run you start you have all possible playstiles in the game available to you in the weapon and boon window room.
This is obviously good for a roguelike or a roguelite, which Hades is, but bad for an RPG. Because if there is no build possibility it is not an rpg.

You can affect your build by choosing a pendant of a corresponding god
Permanent progression forces you to choose between two sets of exclusive perks, that can alter your gameplay
Different builds and weapons in hades vary the gameplay a lot, as opposed to some of the "true rpgs" where a different build just affects the color of the attack damage numbers that pop up when you clock on enemies

Play better rpgs then.
All the progression mechanics you mentioned are limited to the run. You choose the pendant before the run starts. Across runs you can only upgrade it.
The perks are chosen inside the run, not outside of it.
The weapons and the builds are chosen inside the run aswell.

A roguelike is not inherently an rpg because it resets your build after every run. Nethack has absolutely rpg mechanics and meaningfull progression inside of the runs. It is not an rpg, because Roguelikes are not RPGs. They are roguelikes.

 

[Citizen]

A roguelike is not inherently an rpg because it resets your build after every run. Nethack has absolutely rpg mechanics and meaningfull progression inside of the runs. It is not an rpg, because Roguelikes are not RPGs. They are roguelikes.

Never said it was, my original point is:

I don't think Hades is an RPG, but if even totally unrelated shit like avengers is included in this depressing poll, than gib Hades too, so I have at least one good game to vote for

If we are voting not for RPGs, but for anything that has at least some rudimentary RPG-lite elements (Marvel Avengers really?) than Hades totally can be nominated too

 

[Thac0]

If we are voting not for RPGs, but for anything that has at least some rudimentary RPG-lite elements (Marvel Avengers really?) than Hades totally can be nominated too

That is a fair point. Hades is not an rpg, it is an action roguelite. But Avengers is a Looter Shooter, the bastard child of fusing Diablo with FPS. That is arguable even further removed from rpgs.


Then again we were not talking about that post 9 pages ago lol. I agree Hades is alright. I said Transistor is actually an rpg, while Hades is not. I assume when you responded you meant to say that Hades actually is an rpg.

 

[Tacgnol]

A roguelike is not inherently an rpg because it resets your build after every run. Nethack has absolutely rpg mechanics and meaningfull progression inside of the runs. It is not an rpg, because Roguelikes are not RPGs. They are roguelikes.

Never said it was, my original point is:

I don't think Hades is an RPG, but if even totally unrelated shit like avengers is included in this depressing poll, than gib Hades too, so I have at least one good game to vote for

If we are voting not for RPGs, but for anything that has at least some rudimentary RPG-lite elements (Marvel Avengers really?) than Hades totally can be nominated too

If half the shit on the list is considered an RPG, then Hades can definitely be chucked on.

That said, RPG or not Hades is definitely one of the better games of 2020.

 

[NJClaw]

I know Hades is loved around here, I also think it was probably the best game of the year, but - and I know this is subjective and will open a giant can of worms - I think it's a game mostly about twitch skills, descending from games like Spelunky and especially Binding of Isaac.

DU figured this out years ago - if it's marketed as an RPG, it is one. Hades's Steam page:

Genre: Action Games, Indie, RPG

I 100% agree with this. The "is it an RPG?" question is unanswerable, we can only rely on what the people behind the games have to say about them.

Hades is an RPG:

Marvel's Avengers is an RPG:

 

[lukaszek]

hades lets you role play daddy issues, how often you get that in your rpgs?

 

[V_K]

hades lets you role play daddy issues, how often you get that in your rpgs?

You do that in most Ultimas. Except maybe 8, where you have mommy issues.