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Editorial RPG Codex Editorial: Darth Roxor on the State of RPG Writing
- Thread starter Infinitron
- Start date
The person who wrote dialogues for this crappy game is a shit writer, that's just it.
What is the context for this? Like is the character 'high' or sliding into madness or something?
Some of this garbage writing comes from excessive affection for synaesthesia, which seems to be kind of a trendy concept, particularly among aspiring artistic types because of it's proposed links to creativity.
Anubioz
Novice
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Yep, it's actually a joke. Lantry is carrying different inks, taking each of them describe how a man feels while taking drugs (stimulants, hallucinogens and the third one is probably weed). As for the Age of Decadence writing, which many of you seem to consider superior, I'll
Zerth
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I always regarded that purple prose as an attempt to shove fancy adjectives/nouns into mundane sentences. It reminds of dexter (cartoon) or a pedantic aspie, pretty amusing.
Now; in regards of fonts, I think Undertale use of different fonts and sound effects to convey reactions, emotions, personality setting etc. was slightly inspired by Phoenix Wright games, which usually make an extensive use of sound effects and a little of font change to highlight hints, reactions, tension, etc. besides, the pixel models in Phoenix wright games work to convey characterization in a similar fashion to a typical fully voice acted and expressive NPC . Also; there is a silly mock dating sim with the skellington that is pretty much a parody of phoenix wright ace attorney's trial sessions. But indeed, I can't think of any CRPG that conveys a wide array of emotions (or abilities) to the playable character with just a bunch of colorful fonts like Vampire Bloodlines does.
In my opinion, the reason why nowadays gaming storytelling is lacking in most AAA games is due that there's no way to set standards or guidelines to create a proper balance between showing/telling, only good examples ( and when an attempt to copy a successful formula is made, they end up with a clumsy rip-off of the original work, like Bioshock compared to System Shock I & II). It's something entirely up to the creative aptitude that the dev team has. We only know that, whether is common sense or by empirical evidence, that adding too much of either you'll end up with something meaningless, boring and ironically shallow. Like a wall of irrelevant text, abusing audio logs, or (and the most annoying of all) forcing your character into a long cutscene of meaningless contemplation.
By the way, since you mention that in Gothic I & II all the references for stuff that happened outside Khorinis are regarded as gossips just there to briefly tell you that there's something else out there; only that you don't have any playable reason or motivation to know more about it. Dark Souls also does it in a similar manner: there are vague references about another lands, characters and eras depicted on items or mentioned by npcs, but the amount of info is so little that, although these are generally irrelevant considering your current agenda, it sparks enough interest to go wild with speculations. For example, you don't need to know the furtive pygmy's identity therefore nothing is mentioned about it but its backstory, since is tied to a major event in Dark Souls storyline. Of course, that doesn't stop people to try to figure it out who he was (or is?). Besides that, there are some very few references about an era called "The Deep Sea" in Dark Souls 3, you don't have to care about it in the slightest, but still, in Dark souls; the gods and pretty much every other being that is not a dragon nor human are so concerned in stopping a "Dark era" to take over by throwing worthy undeads into the first flame like marshmallows, that adding the possibility of another era is quite interesting.
By the way, downloading Dsfix is mandatory to properly tweak the crappy port made for pc.
Now; in regards of fonts, I think Undertale use of different fonts and sound effects to convey reactions, emotions, personality setting etc. was slightly inspired by Phoenix Wright games, which usually make an extensive use of sound effects and a little of font change to highlight hints, reactions, tension, etc. besides, the pixel models in Phoenix wright games work to convey characterization in a similar fashion to a typical fully voice acted and expressive NPC . Also; there is a silly mock dating sim with the skellington that is pretty much a parody of phoenix wright ace attorney's trial sessions. But indeed, I can't think of any CRPG that conveys a wide array of emotions (or abilities) to the playable character with just a bunch of colorful fonts like Vampire Bloodlines does.
In my opinion, the reason why nowadays gaming storytelling is lacking in most AAA games is due that there's no way to set standards or guidelines to create a proper balance between showing/telling, only good examples ( and when an attempt to copy a successful formula is made, they end up with a clumsy rip-off of the original work, like Bioshock compared to System Shock I & II). It's something entirely up to the creative aptitude that the dev team has. We only know that, whether is common sense or by empirical evidence, that adding too much of either you'll end up with something meaningless, boring and ironically shallow. Like a wall of irrelevant text, abusing audio logs, or (and the most annoying of all) forcing your character into a long cutscene of meaningless contemplation.
By the way, since you mention that in Gothic I & II all the references for stuff that happened outside Khorinis are regarded as gossips just there to briefly tell you that there's something else out there; only that you don't have any playable reason or motivation to know more about it. Dark Souls also does it in a similar manner: there are vague references about another lands, characters and eras depicted on items or mentioned by npcs, but the amount of info is so little that, although these are generally irrelevant considering your current agenda, it sparks enough interest to go wild with speculations. For example, you don't need to know the furtive pygmy's identity therefore nothing is mentioned about it but its backstory, since is tied to a major event in Dark Souls storyline. Of course, that doesn't stop people to try to figure it out who he was (or is?). Besides that, there are some very few references about an era called "The Deep Sea" in Dark Souls 3, you don't have to care about it in the slightest, but still, in Dark souls; the gods and pretty much every other being that is not a dragon nor human are so concerned in stopping a "Dark era" to take over by throwing worthy undeads into the first flame like marshmallows, that adding the possibility of another era is quite interesting.
By the way, downloading Dsfix is mandatory to properly tweak the crappy port made for pc.
Ludo Lense
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That is a stretch of what political means...unless you mean that the personal is political
Lurker King
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You are not paying attention. This SJW political mindset provides a worldview in which everything that is relevant needs to be in some way or another associated with gender, minorities and their interests. Do you think this is an exaggeration? I would invite you to read new papers about feminist epistemology, ontology and ethics. Then you tell me if this is an exaggeration or not. What is worse, these trends are not just simplistic mindsets, but agendas that induce fanaticism. You can’t expect someone to accept these beliefs without having any damage in their work. This doesn’t apply just to SJW, but to everything, communism, Nazism, etc.
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I am actually writing my master's on this atheist jew (lol). I should be writing right now.
I can recommend anything by him, he's clear, no wordy bullshit, and focusses on problems, not history and needless references. His "What does it all mean?" is the introduction to philosophy I wish I had in hand in my teens.
Locke is a good philosopher, methodical in his argumentation, but he does have a tendency to overstuff his sentences. The main obstacle to understanding him is his syntax, but he's still easy to get. I always thought it was due to the time at which it was written; it's not like Hume is any clearer in that respect. I also agree that Wittgenstein is a lot more obscure than people usually think, even more than Hegel sometimes. I feel like many aspects of his philosophy are better explained by Ryle in his "Concept of Mind".
As for those who don't think Darth Roxor's criticism of liberal education in universities is pertinent, I am studying in a "leftist" uni and I can attest that he has a point.
It's not all the teachers that transmit this SJW thinking, but the quality of teaching and what is asked of students has declined to the point where even poorly written texts get good or ok grades. Standards have been lowered, especially at undergraduate levels. Students are confident in their ignorance, secure that they *know*. Dogmatism is everywhere.
New hires are a problem. There has been a push to get more and more women in teaching positions, to "diversify" the teachers, so we get what we get, sex before competence. I have not had a good philosophy course teached by a woman yet. There is also an agenda to get more women studying philosophy, and they have slowly taken over the departement, the associations and the public discourse. Older teachers can no longer speak their opinions, for fear of having the mob turn against them, with allegations of sexual assault, like they did many times, and are forced to cater to the "clientele" by diversifying their teaching, dropping classical authors for women that might have had something to say, but whose minor contributions are no longer part of the current debates. Quality of education suffers.
And this is only in
philosophy. Sociology and other fields are infested with political correctness and even outright ideological shilling. Group-think about oppression is women's "liberation". I hate to say this, but basically, the correlation is this: the more women in a department, the worse it is. Sociology is 80% women.
And I love women - I'm all for equality and humanism. But they hate me, and I'm not even white. I am like a pariah in my own school for having nuanced opinions or wanting to discuss positions instead of accepting them at face-value. I fear a guy like me, not making any friends, even though teachers recognise my worth, will not go far in this field for not being an "ally".
I could go on...
It's not all the teachers that transmit this SJW thinking, but the quality of teaching and what is asked of students has declined to the point where even poorly written texts get good or ok grades. Standards have been lowered, especially at undergraduate levels. Students are confident in their ignorance, secure that they *know*. Dogmatism is everywhere.
New hires are a problem. There has been a push to get more and more women in teaching positions, to "diversify" the teachers, so we get what we get, sex before competence. I have not had a good philosophy course teached by a woman yet. There is also an agenda to get more women studying philosophy, and they have slowly taken over the departement, the associations and the public discourse. Older teachers can no longer speak their opinions, for fear of having the mob turn against them, with allegations of sexual assault, like they did many times, and are forced to cater to the "clientele" by diversifying their teaching, dropping classical authors for women that might have had something to say, but whose minor contributions are no longer part of the current debates. Quality of education suffers.
And this is only in
philosophy. Sociology and other fields are infested with political correctness and even outright ideological shilling. Group-think about oppression is women's "liberation". I hate to say this, but basically, the correlation is this: the more women in a department, the worse it is. Sociology is 80% women.And I love women - I'm all for equality and humanism. But they hate me, and I'm not even white. I am like a pariah in my own school for having nuanced opinions or wanting to discuss positions instead of accepting them at face-value. I fear a guy like me, not making any friends, even though teachers recognise my worth, will not go far in this field for not being an "ally".
I could go on...
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Fenix
Arcane
That's a part of neo-liberal strategy for/to control education.
And that's what I said earlier in this thread, that universities was turned into incubator of linching mob.
This article in Russion is about scandal with Nicholas Christakis from Yale, this video shows.
All trends are understandable even from that one case.
THat's called non-conformism. I suffer from such position whole my life, but still don't want to change my cource.
And yes, this behavior lead to nowhere in terms of success, in today America FOR SURE.
The only benefit that you'll understand better what's going on around you.
So you need to become such good specialist that your views doesn't matter to hirer, or expect to work in different field of activity.
America enters the Era of Marching in Formation.
From afar, America resembles the medieval Europe with with its religious fanaticism more and more.
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Finally we've arrived at the source of all evil: women.
Yeah... demonizing women wasn't my goal really, but it came out like this. I did say correlation though, not cause.
Still, overall, (some) women are the vector of this change in my university and philosophy department -- this is indeed anecdotal -- they're the ones that are more vocal about it and push others in this direction, and have become radicalised as a group recently. But this seems to be widespread.
I have to say though, there are no blacks at all amongst the philosophy students or teachers in my university, and next to no other visible minorites. Everyone is white, except a handful of non-whites. I'm trying to think of someone else, but I might even be the only one lol -- this is weird. Shieeet. Oh there's an asian woman, and one trans. So there, of course it's not going to be white males pushing this. Though they are content in being bestest allies, on the front row of "progressive thinking".
I might advance that the idea of feminism as something that is for women only and has nothing to do with men, rather than being an egalitarianism, is problematic, and turned into an excuse to reject men from the dialogue. I can't really say much more about causes, but there is an increasing tendency for women to consider themselves victims, to see even benign things as assault. Maybe they are in fact victims, and all those allegations of rape and abuse might be all true, but I have seen many reel a guy in and then cry wolf when it didn't suit them or their boyfriend caught them (true stories), that I can't help but be skeptical in many cases. By studying oppression and having women writers against oppression as role models, they might end up seeing the world through those categories. Their vision become theory-laden, like Kuhn would say. And then peer pressure insures its spread.
Many women are very nice though and do not play that game.
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That's as [citation needed] as it gets.
i see you there holding your big sword by the shaft, all alone
It is the inevitable conclusion. The older you get the more you will realize the cosmic truth behind it.
Lurker King
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Fixed.
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I miss being able to rate posts sometimes.
Fenix
Arcane
Yeah, his answer is hilarious. 10/10
Lurker King
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This is a new McCarthyism. The difference is that the red menace was replaced by the patriarchy menace. You don’t have the freedom to use the pronouns you want, because that’s not the way the minorities want to be called. You can’t take for granted the canon, because they’re composed almost exclusively by white authors. You can be accused of harassment just to make a compliment or hit on a girl. A teacher that makes the terrible mistake of having a love affair with a deranged feminist can be accused of harassment or rape overnight if things go badly, ruining his carrier. Doing simple things like presenting objections and saying that a bad work is bad work, are perceived as a symptom of macho aggressive culture. If you are a man you can’t talk about women issues, if you are white you can’t talk about black issues, etc. Feminists pay visits to departments to determine whether their climate are safe enough for women. What is really insidious is that this whole witch-hunt process is conducted by deranged feminists and enabled by misinformed white knights that "want to do the right thing" and be political correct. If you had told me 10 years ago that this cultural studies post-modern craziness would infect other departments and spread to the wider culture, I would laugh at you, but the joke would be on me. I think some people here only think that these complaints about fanaticism are an exaggeration because they are living in a bubble, or weren’t affected by it yet.
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Lurker King
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Some interesting books I would like to recommend about the SJW phenomenon, with links:
The Second Sexism: Discrimination Against Men and Boys, by David Benatar
The Sceptical Feminist, by Janet Radcliffe
Feminist Fantasies, by Phyllis Schlafly
The Myth of Male Power: Why Men Are the Disposable Sex, by Warren Farrell
The Flight from Science and Reason, by Paul Gross, Norman Levitt and Martin W. Lewis (Present criticisms against the new feminism and similar irrationalist ideologies that procreate in cultural studies)
Professing Feminism: Education and Indoctrination in Women's Studies, by Daphne Patai and Noretta Koertge
Heterophobia: Sexual Harassment and the Future of Feminism, by Daphne Patai
Professing Feminism: Cautionary Tales from the Strange World of Women's Studies, by Daphne Patai and Noretta Koertge
Spreading Misandry: The Teaching of Contempt for Men in Popular Culture, by Paul Nathanson and Katherine Young
Legalizing Misandry: From Public Shame to Systemic Discrimination Against Men, by Paul Nathanson and Katherine Young
The Second Sexism: Discrimination Against Men and Boys, by David Benatar
The Sceptical Feminist, by Janet Radcliffe
Feminist Fantasies, by Phyllis Schlafly
The Myth of Male Power: Why Men Are the Disposable Sex, by Warren Farrell
The Flight from Science and Reason, by Paul Gross, Norman Levitt and Martin W. Lewis (Present criticisms against the new feminism and similar irrationalist ideologies that procreate in cultural studies)
Professing Feminism: Education and Indoctrination in Women's Studies, by Daphne Patai and Noretta Koertge
Heterophobia: Sexual Harassment and the Future of Feminism, by Daphne Patai
Professing Feminism: Cautionary Tales from the Strange World of Women's Studies, by Daphne Patai and Noretta Koertge
Spreading Misandry: The Teaching of Contempt for Men in Popular Culture, by Paul Nathanson and Katherine Young
Legalizing Misandry: From Public Shame to Systemic Discrimination Against Men, by Paul Nathanson and Katherine Young
Yeah, this is very recent. It wasn't like that when I started my studies. I thought the same as you, isolated crazy women in their crazy bubble, but no.
The student-led "Climate and Equity committee" for my philosophy department was created a bit more than a year ago, and things have only gone downhill from there. The same people on that committee now lead the philo students' association. Our association's office, which was a nice place to bounce back ideas and troll, has been thoroughly cleaned and now harbors a safe-space sticker on the door. Every official communication between teachers and students is first combed by the committee. Teachers fear for their jobs as their students turn on them and smear them. My group of friends have disintegrated because of women's accusations and doubts sewn all over. It is crazy.
Fenix
Arcane
You know, it's all reminds me about times of October Revolution and establishment of communism in early post-revolutional years.
Interception of control, ideological indoctrination, radicalism.
Most important that I think it doesn't condence out of thin air, it is well-thought and controlled process as part of process of desintegration of white european civilization.
One of the few occasions where I get to learn something on the Codex. Thanks, Darth Roxor !
I agree with the points the article makes about what are the symptoms of bad writing, though in my reflections on the causes, I've always reached the same simple conclusion - the ability to tell an interesting story and construct believable characters and situations is only achieved through collecting real life experiences, aka actually living, aka developing your ability to analyse individuals, history and thought. I am convinced you generally need to be old to be a good writer, and you also have to have been a good natural psychologist throughout your life, in order to fill your writer's cookbook of characters, traits and stories.
I also read through the thread, some very interesting and insightful comments. I think I understand Fenix and I agree with his points.
That bit in the article about the cows reminded me about my last year's attempt to write a concept of Pillars' New Heomar, its history and society, as if I'm writing the setting for a D&D adventure set there. It was very interesting to try writing constructed history, but I have been prudent enough not to have posted it. I made some estimations on its climate, economy, natural resources, population, crafts, trade, relations with neighboring lands, etc. But all this was text intended solely for the DM of course, not for the players.
I agree with the points the article makes about what are the symptoms of bad writing, though in my reflections on the causes, I've always reached the same simple conclusion - the ability to tell an interesting story and construct believable characters and situations is only achieved through collecting real life experiences, aka actually living, aka developing your ability to analyse individuals, history and thought. I am convinced you generally need to be old to be a good writer, and you also have to have been a good natural psychologist throughout your life, in order to fill your writer's cookbook of characters, traits and stories.
I also read through the thread, some very interesting and insightful comments. I think I understand Fenix and I agree with his points.
That bit in the article about the cows reminded me about my last year's attempt to write a concept of Pillars' New Heomar, its history and society, as if I'm writing the setting for a D&D adventure set there. It was very interesting to try writing constructed history, but I have been prudent enough not to have posted it. I made some estimations on its climate, economy, natural resources, population, crafts, trade, relations with neighboring lands, etc. But all this was text intended solely for the DM of course, not for the players.
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'k.don't abuse
DeepOcean
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Example of game that did lore right: Morrowind
Why? Because the lore was tied with what was happening on the main story of the game. Through the lore you saw radically different versions of the same story and how those interpretations shaped Morrowind society. The lore made the main villain even more interesting and the whole story more misterious as you were investigating a mystery that involved a whole people. The lore actually gave context to the things you actually did in the game. On many other RPGs, the lore is stuff you mostly can ignore as they talk about stuff that have zero relevance now instead of talking of stuff that is actually important for the story.
Example of game with proper character story arcs: Witcher 3
On many RPGs, characters are: 1) Static, they start a way and end on the same way. 2)They have an uncanny self knowledge and seem to know their own interior life with perfection to the point of relating it to you on therapy sections (Bioware loves this shit.). 3)They trust the player way too much and don't try to decieve the player. 4) They don't challenge the player and seek their own goals instead of pandering to the player all the time. You many times know their motivations way too well like the writer hates the idea of ambiguity and contradiction.
On Witcher 3, I really like three characters, Yennefer, Keira Metzs and the Red Baron, the Red Baron because he is ashamed of his actions and tries to hide them from you, you press him on the wall after getting evidence and he reluctantly confides to you only because he needs you, then he comes with all sorts of bullshit to try to excuse himself of what he did and when he finally see the consequnces of his actions on a terrifying sequence the man's excuses just break and he seeks redemption. Later you just see the guy was vulnerable to all sort of shit that normal people are and you can't judge him on what you wouldn't do the same on his place.
Yennefer, because she is annoying, like to be annoying and don't feel ashamed of being annoying, don't try to pander to you and when you press her why she is so annoying, she throws in our face that you were fucking her friend and if you tought she was an idiot? I laughed hard.
I would argue that alot of problems on many new writers is that they seem to be people that live way too much on their intellectual safe spaces and not on real life. People are just crazy, they will be really fun to be around but equally annoying to be around, a good character is the same. I really hate this tendency many writers have to create ideal types with safe internal conflicts safely stored on backstory instead on the relationship with the player. Those writers seem to be people afraid of conflicts and to be challenged, this is many times expressed on their writing and this make for some boring writing.
Why? Because the lore was tied with what was happening on the main story of the game. Through the lore you saw radically different versions of the same story and how those interpretations shaped Morrowind society. The lore made the main villain even more interesting and the whole story more misterious as you were investigating a mystery that involved a whole people. The lore actually gave context to the things you actually did in the game. On many other RPGs, the lore is stuff you mostly can ignore as they talk about stuff that have zero relevance now instead of talking of stuff that is actually important for the story.
Example of game with proper character story arcs: Witcher 3
On many RPGs, characters are: 1) Static, they start a way and end on the same way. 2)They have an uncanny self knowledge and seem to know their own interior life with perfection to the point of relating it to you on therapy sections (Bioware loves this shit.). 3)They trust the player way too much and don't try to decieve the player. 4) They don't challenge the player and seek their own goals instead of pandering to the player all the time. You many times know their motivations way too well like the writer hates the idea of ambiguity and contradiction.
On Witcher 3, I really like three characters, Yennefer, Keira Metzs and the Red Baron, the Red Baron because he is ashamed of his actions and tries to hide them from you, you press him on the wall after getting evidence and he reluctantly confides to you only because he needs you, then he comes with all sorts of bullshit to try to excuse himself of what he did and when he finally see the consequnces of his actions on a terrifying sequence the man's excuses just break and he seeks redemption. Later you just see the guy was vulnerable to all sort of shit that normal people are and you can't judge him on what you wouldn't do the same on his place.
Yennefer, because she is annoying, like to be annoying and don't feel ashamed of being annoying, don't try to pander to you and when you press her why she is so annoying, she throws in our face that you were fucking her friend and if you tought she was an idiot? I laughed hard.
I would argue that alot of problems on many new writers is that they seem to be people that live way too much on their intellectual safe spaces and not on real life. People are just crazy, they will be really fun to be around but equally annoying to be around, a good character is the same. I really hate this tendency many writers have to create ideal types with safe internal conflicts safely stored on backstory instead on the relationship with the player. Those writers seem to be people afraid of conflicts and to be challenged, this is many times expressed on their writing and this make for some boring writing.
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