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IronicNeurotic

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Infinitron Stop being trolled by DU. By any actual metric Obsidian is doing a kickass campagin. Providing more regular updates (and more content rich even if its useless (for us) information at times) than any other campagin and leading/keeping up with the previously BEST video game kickstarter campagin.


The only arguments DU and others provided so far are what ifs and should bes. So, useless arguing. Save your energy, dude.
 

Infinitron

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Codex Year of the Donut Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Pillars of Eternity 2: Deadfire Pathfinder: Kingmaker Pathfinder: Wrath I'm very into cock and ball torture I helped put crap in Monomyth
As a side note, I wonder how much the pacing of info releases during a kickstarter campaign even matter.
All the big successful campaigns we've seen follow a similar pattern, a surge at the start; slow but steady growth in the middle and a surge at the end.
We sometimes see that a particular piece of information causes a jump in the pledges, but it's impossible to say if those pledges wouldn't have come earlier if that information had been known from the start.

I do think there's some psychological benefit in keeping the updates steady and reasonably informative - it makes the project seem "alive", like something that needs to be constantly nurtured (with our money).

That's why I'm skeptical of DU's "gimme all the infoes!!" approach.
 

Jarpie

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Codex 2012 MCA
As a side note, I wonder how much the pacing of info releases during a kickstarter campaign even matter.
All the big successful campaigns we've seen follow a similar pattern, a surge at the start; slow but steady growth in the middle and a surge at the end.
We sometimes see that a particular piece of information causes a jump in the pledges, but it's impossible to say if those pledges wouldn't have come earlier if that information had been known from the start.

I do think there's some psychological benefit in keeping the updates steady and reasonably informative - it makes the project seem "alive", like something that needs to be constantly nurtured (with our money).

That's why I'm skeptical of DU's "gimme all the infoes!!" approach.

Besides, the updates helps the Kickstarter campaign to get into news regularly which means more visibility, also if they would've dumped all the info also if they would've dumped all the info at once when they launced the Kickstarter campaign I think there'd been backlash with "I can't read all this info at once! They can't plan the campaign!"
 

DarkUnderlord

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I do think there's some psychological benefit in keeping the updates steady and reasonably informative - it makes the project seem "alive", like something that needs to be constantly nurtured (with our money).

That's why I'm skeptical of DU's "gimme all the infoes!!" approach.
Like how it totally failed for The Banner Saga. I'm sure they'd have done much better if they'd just focussed on name dropping their former projects and posting pictures of the game boxes.

Besides, the updates helps the Kickstarter campaign to get into news regularly which means more visibility, also if they would've dumped all the info also if they would've dumped all the info at once when they launced the Kickstarter campaign I think there'd been backlash with "I can't read all this info at once! They can't plan the campaign!"
You now what, you're right. That would be a negative to Obsidian's target audience. They should've used more pretty pictures and simple diagrams. Enjoy your KickStarter game aimed directly at "Average Joe".
 

J_C

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I do think there's some psychological benefit in keeping the updates steady and reasonably informative - it makes the project seem "alive", like something that needs to be constantly nurtured (with our money).

That's why I'm skeptical of DU's "gimme all the infoes!!" approach.
Like how it totally failed for The Banner Saga. I'm sure they'd have done much better if they'd just focussed on name dropping their former projects and posting pictures of the game boxes.
Why are you keep comparing this project to others? It's a different beast. The guys developing that and Obsidian took a different approach. The BS guys have been making the game for some time, they had some stuff already built that they could show, they just needed some more cash, that's why they only asked for 100K. Banner Saga also didn't dump everything at the gamers at once. They had a nice info package at the start, but kept updating during the project (just like Obsidian). Obsidian followed Double Fine's and Fargo's approach, starting the KS project before the development. They only had the basic concepts ready. Why do you insist on saying that one approach is good and the other is bad?
 

almondblight

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What you quoted from the Wasteland 2 KickStarter is the opening paragraph. There's a section called "Nuts and Bolts" below that which goes into a bit more detail:

We’re going back to the original and building from there. No first person shooter, we’re going top down so you get a tactical feel for the situation. And we’re not ditching the party play to turn it into some hack-and-slash bloodfest. It’s turn based, tactical, with a storyline that will be deeper and broader.​

We’re determined to keep the gritty, grim and satirical writing. We’re going to pitch those moral dilemmas at you. You’re going to be faced with the consequences of your actions.​

Oops! There goes your argument. It does help if you pay attention J_C.

Eh? So what information do we learn here that we didn't learn about PE? Based on earlier games? Check. No first person shooter? Check. Perspective? Check. Party? Check. TB or RTwP? Check. Platitudes about the story being deep and mature with moral dilemmas and consequences? Check.

What information did Wasteland 2 give us that PE didn't? As for information that PE gave us that Wasteland didn't: basic theme of the main quest, information about the skill and experience system, more information about the setting, and the engine it's going to use.
 

DarkUnderlord

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What information did Wasteland 2 give us that PE didn't? As for information that PE gave us that Wasteland didn't: basic theme of the main quest, information about the skill and experience system, more information about the setting, and the engine it's going to use.
I've actually been over this before but let me keep it simple: What kind of monsters will you encounter in P:E? Will there be Dragons? Now think about what kind of monsters you will encounter in Wasteland 2, based on those found in the original Wasteland. Lizards, Raiders, Biker Scum etc...

And saying you don't know about what system Wasteland 2 will use is a bit asinine. It's going to use a system similar to the original game, given Fargo's declared that intent to keep it turn-based and in the spirit of the original. That alone tells you what type of skills you are likely to find and how they will work. Sure, they might change a few things, but you still have a much more clearer idea than P:E. P:E's example games are all D&D. So what type of spells are they going to have? How will their magic system actually work?

And if you can't do some fucking research into the original Wasteland before you donate, then you're too brain dead to be posting here.

Why are you keep comparing this project to others? It's a different beast.
I'm simply saying that the more information you have about the project (like that given in Wasteland 2 or Banner Saga - which showed off their combat system, artistic style and game-world and reached 700% of their goal as a result), the more likely you are to get donations (well, unless your ideas suck). Enough people here, at places like The Escapist and other forums have said that they won't be donating to Project: Eternity because they don't know enough about the game that Obsidian are intending to make.

Now either Obsidian are deliberately drip-feeding that information out because their fan-base is too retarded to handle it (which should really make you question the kind of game they are making, if that's what you genuinely believe).

... or Obsidian have no real idea themselves. Which means anything they release is highly speculative and subject to change.

Take Souls for example. Will players have a blue "Soul bar"? Every-time a player casts a spell, their "Soul bar" is reduced. If they run out of "Soul" they can't cast any more spells. The "Soul bar" can be replenished by drinking blue "Soul potions". In other games, this is called "Mana".

IE: The difference between having a vague game concept and how that's then turned into numbers for the game to handle. If this was a Fallout 4 fund-raiser, you have all of that in SPECIAL. You know how SPECIAL works. If it's using VATS, then you know how that works too.

I maintain that the more information Obsidian do release, the more donations they would get. And currently they're missing out on a lot more cash. Evidence for this is simple: Take a look at the number of people who have said they're not donating to the Codex Fundraiser because they don't know the nature of the party we intend to put in the game. Take a look at the responses here:

"If we donate, what Tags do we get?"
"What do you get for $250?"​

More - and clearer - information gets more donations. It's not a hard concept to grasp. Sure, you can argue that they're getting enough money - but I can say that too. We've raised $2k, fundraiser success! Who's to say we'd have ever raised anymore? And yet, it's very clear that we could be getting much, much more cash. Hell, the entire argument with that guy in the other thread, was him saying that if I was more positive about P:E, we'd be getting more donations. Like I said, good clear information = much more success.

... or are you and Infinitron really arguing that the less information we have about P:E, the better off the fundraiser will be?
 

TwinkieGorilla

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 BattleTech Pathfinder: Wrath
*sigh*

Guys, DU is essentially right. The couldas, shouldas and wouldas don't really matter right now because the reality is that if Obsidian had more of a clue what they were doing...and then told the world what the fuck exactly that was...I'm sure they'd have much more pledged by now. Comparing it to any other KS campaigns is irrelevant. Maybe now would be a good time to begin really going after them to cough up more information? Because its either that or we:

A) Just shut the fuck up and pledge.
B) Just shut the fuck up and don't pledge.

There's not a whole lot more to be accomplished with this topic though.
 

almondblight

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I've actually been over this before but let me keep it simple: What kind of monsters will you encounter in P:E? Will there be Dragons? Now think about what kind of monsters you will encounter in Wasteland 2, based on those found in the original Wasteland. Lizards, Raiders, Biker Scum etc...

We know that PE will have Dwarves, Elves, and demon-people, and we know that at least the dwarves will be divided into different cultures, like those from the northern arboreal forest. For Wasteland 2 we knew they had a roboscorpion (and that only came mid-way through the Kickstarter), and could only assume that Wasteland 2 had some enemies from the first game (which? who knows?). If you view this as "we know so much more about Wasteland 2 than PE!", fine, but I'm not seeing it.

And saying you don't know about what system Wasteland 2 will use is a bit asinine. It's going to use a system similar to the original game, given Fargo's declared that intent to keep it turn-based and in the spirit of the original. That alone tells you what type of skills you are likely to find and how they will work. Sure, they might change a few things, but you still have a much more clearer idea than P:E. P:E's example games are all D&D. So what type of spells are they going to have? How will their magic system actually work?

I've got Marshall McLuhan Brian Fargo right here, talking about The Bard's Tale (2004):

Question:
Why did you decide to depart from the more standard RPG model used by the original The Bard's Tale?

Brian Fargo:
Can you imagine if the most creative thing I did was to take a 10-year-old game and do nothing but make it into another old-school first-person PC game with generic good vs. evil storylines? I've been playing these games for years and felt it was time to push the category in terms of personality and human emotion. The first The Bard's Tale succeeded because it offered something new to the category. A new generation of The Bard's Tale had to do the same.

That, to me, is where your whole argument falls apart. If, say, VD announced AoD 2 tomorrow, or Basilisk Games announced Eschalon 3, I would have a good idea of exactly what they were going to do. Brian Fargo in 2012 talking about a new Wasteland game is very, very, different. Hell, I remember a lot of us didn't even think it'd be turn-based when it was first announced. Even after it was announced that it was turn-based, just about everyone assumed (and still does) that it wouldn't use the same combat system as the first. What will combat be like in Wasteland 2? Like Fallout? I still have no clue. Oh, sure, I assume that rifle will be a skill in Wasteland 2, just as I assume swords will be in PE. And bureaucracy? Safecrack? Forgery? Gamble? Does Fargo think that a new generation of Wasteland has to offer something new like a new generation of Bard's Tale does? Hell, he already said he wanted to put social aspects in the game.

We only knew more about Wasteland 2 if we made certain assumptions that rely on trusting Brian Fargo to do things differently from how he had been doing them. On the one hand, we have his words, and on the other, his actions. If you personally felt trust in him during the Wasteland 2 campaign, fine. But to say that everyone should have and therefore we knew more about Wasteland 2 is just ridiculous.
 

tuluse

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Serpent in the Staglands Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong
Fargo said the combat would be like JA2 and Fallout Tactics. It's in the design doc I believe.
 

almondblight

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Fargo said the combat would be like JA2 and Fallout Tactics. It's in the design doc I believe.

From the initial Project Eternity announcement:

Project Eternity will take the central hero, memorable companions and the epic exploration of Baldur’s Gate, add in the fun, intense combat and dungeon diving of Icewind Dale, and tie it all together with the emotional writing and mature thematic exploration of Planescape: Torment.

So even if you feel like counting meaningless platitudes, PE has Wasteland 2 beat.

But JA2 and Fallout Tactics? I guess you were right, DarkUnderlord. It's going to use a system similar to the original game.
 

J_C

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Project: Eternity Wasteland 2 Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag. Pathfinder: Wrath
DarkUnderlord I'm not arguing that giving more information means more pledges, but I think Obsidian is dropping the info in just the right pace. They can't dump everything at once, because then they you don't have anything for a month. And although I'm not sure, but it is possible that they are keeping the best pieces for the end, because I assume that they know that the last few days are the ones, where the big money comes in.
 

Johannes

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DarkUnderlord I'm not arguing that giving more information means more pledges, but I think Obsidian is dropping the info in just the right pace. They can't dump everything at once, because then they you don't have anything for a month. And although I'm not sure, but it is possible that they are keeping the best pieces for the end, because I assume that they know that the last few days are the ones, where the big money comes in.
People pledge near the end because they haven't bothered to do it earlier. I don't see how withholding info until then is going to convince more people than giving it right now where the pledges are slowing to a crawl. The people who wait until last minute will still get this info, while it gives something to judge for people who are on the fence about donating right now. They'll have press coverage noting the ending of the campaign in any case - but in this middle period they gotta do something in order to be relevant to news sites.

If they'd give info on the starting point of the story, what will make their combat system awesome (go through common flaws in RTwP games and tell how you're gonna fix them, for example), more info on the Souls concept, how combat-focused will the game be, whatever, I don't see how they benefit from not dropping something more right now as opposed to later.
 

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