Codex Interview RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone at Digital Dragons 2016

[Orobis]

Tim Cain wasn't interested in leading a project back then, but maybe that'll change soon.

I hope so.

 

[Lurker King]

It sure as shit was for me. I remember 3-4 years ago when i found out about PoE and knowing MCA was at obsidian, i was fully expecting him to do most of the writing or at least be the lead writer, he was the main selling point for me. As i was playing through the game the more i realized he had fuck all to do with the writing and the disappointment just snowballed from there.

If I were able to go back in time to warn codexers that they shouldn't back project eternity, explaining that this would be a huge disappointment with shitty writing, popamole combat system and uninspired itemization, leading to flaming wars inside the Codex, the departure of Chris Avellone, infinity hate towards Josh Sawyer (the lead designer of F:NV), and the growing acknowledgment that Obsidian was promoting SJW hiring policies, popamolism and tank MMO, people would call me crazy and dismiss me.

 

[Irenaeus]

Hindsight is 20/20, LK

 

[Orobis]

If I was able to go back in time to warn codexers that project eternity would be a huge disappointment with shitty writing, popamole combat system and uninspired itemization, and that this would lead to petty wars inside the Codex, the departure of Chris Avellone, infinite hate towards Josh Sawyer (the lead designer of F:NV), and the growing acknowledgment that Obsidian was promoting SJW hiring policies, popamolism and tank MMO, people would call me crazy and dismiss me.

Yea and i probably would have been one of the ones to dismiss you. And i thought the term popamole referred to 3rd person console based cover shooters with regenerating health?

 

[Ninjerk]

If I was able to go back in time to warn codexers that project eternity would be a huge disappointment with shitty writing, popamole combat system and uninspired itemization, and that this would lead to petty wars inside the Codex, the departure of Chris Avellone, infinite hate towards Josh Sawyer (the lead designer of F:NV), and the growing acknowledgment that Obsidian was promoting SJW hiring policies, popamolism and tank MMO, people would call me crazy and dismiss me.

Yea and i probably would have been one of the ones to dismiss you. And i thought the term popamole referred to 3rd person console based cover shooters with regenerating health?

Originally, but I think it expanded to encompass any kind of dumbed down gameplay.

 

[Gangrelrumbler]

If Codexers knew back then that Avellone won't have much to do with it nobody would fucking back it. I must say that Durance was the most enjoyable thing in the game for me. He was so good he actually made other parts of the game (like Eder or the main quest) feel much better than they really were. Without Avellone I would probably never finish the game and with him as a lead writer/director most people would probably forgive all the mistakes of the game.

 

[Telengard]

If I were able to go back in time to warn codexers that they shouldn't back project eternity, explaining that this would be a huge disappointment with shitty writing, popamole combat system and uninspired itemization, leading to flaming wars inside the Codex, the departure of Chris Avellone, infinite hate towards Josh Sawyer (the lead designer of F:NV), and the growing acknowledgment that Obsidian was promoting SJW hiring policies, popamolism and tank MMO, people would call me crazy and dismiss me.

If you back far enough into the One True Megathread, you will find none other than Roguey doing exactly that, and indeed being dismissed and called crazy. With several comments along the lines of, "I know what they're saying they're going to do, but I trust Obsidian, I trust that they're just saying that for. . ." With the blank being filled in by various things, such as 'marketing purposes'. Essentially saying that Obsidian was going to rip-off the Bioware DA:O crowd by promising them a certain kind of RPG, taking their money, and then delivering a Codex RPG (and that would have been the textbook definition of a rip-off).

This was, of course, before the massive about-face epic trolling that is Sawyerism. Good times.

 

[cherry blossom]

growing acknowledgment that Obsidian was promoting SJW hiring policies

Everything else aside, what has this got to do with anything?

 

[Bubbles]

growing acknowledgment that Obsidian was promoting SJW hiring policies

Everything else aside, what has this got to do with anything?

Certain Codexers refuse to play any RPG made by a non-white person. Race war and so forth.

 

[Irenaeus]

growing acknowledgment that Obsidian was promoting SJW hiring policies

Everything else aside, what has this got to do with anything?

Firedorn crisis.

 

[Stainless Veteran]

growing acknowledgment that Obsidian was promoting SJW hiring policies

Everything else aside, what has this got to do with anything?

People should always be reminded what caused the whole Firedorn crisis.

 

[Orobis]

People should always be reminded what caused the whole Firedorn crisis.

Spoiler

 

[Infinitron]

If Codexers knew back then that Avellone won't have much to do with it nobody would fucking back it.

Joined:
Mar 29, 2014

If you really think that's true, you've forgotten what it was like to be an isometric RPG fan back in 2012, when people were giving hundreds of thousands of dollars to random indies, mobile and ex-Bioware devs on Kickstarter.

 

[Irenaeus]

I backed PoE for $77 and despite what I recognize now as some glaring mistakes (misuse of MCA, pandering to SJWs), I had a great time with the game. It is the best RTwP released since P:ST.

 

[Fairfax]

It's not like people just assumed MCA would have a bigger role. Obsidian pitched it as the dream RPG with the dream team and creative freedom.
Here's the Kickstarter campaign's introduction:

Obsidian Entertainment and our legendary game designers Chris Avellone, Tim Cain, and Josh Sawyer are excited to bring you a new role-playing game for the PC. Project Eternity(working title) pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of years past:Baldur’s Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment.

Project Eternity aims to recapture the magic, imagination, depth, and nostalgia of classic RPG's that we enjoyed making - and playing. At Obsidian, we have the people responsible for many of those classic games and we want to bring those games back… and that’s why we’re here - we need your help to make it a reality!

 

[Stainless Veteran]

It's not like people just assumed MCA would have a bigger role. Obsidian pitched it as the dream RPG with the dream team and creative freedom.
Here's the Kickstarter campaign's introduction:

Obsidian Entertainment and our legendary game designers Chris Avellone, Tim Cain, and Josh Sawyer are excited to bring you a new role-playing game for the PC. Project Eternity(working title) pays homage to the great Infinity Engine games of years past:Baldur’s Gate, Icewind Dale, and Planescape: Torment.

Project Eternity aims to recapture the magic, imagination, depth, and nostalgia of classic RPG's that we enjoyed making - and playing. At Obsidian, we have the people responsible for many of those classic games and we want to bring those games back… and that’s why we’re here - we need your help to make it a reality!

Yep, and before PoE kickstarter there was also this:

Q: One last thing. Tempted by a Planescape Kickstarter?

Chris Avellone: Yes! Very tempted.

Q: It seems like a prime target...

Chris Avellone: Yeah - I think the challenges we've spoken about would all have to be considered and to be honest I don't know if I'd want to do it as a Planescape game - I think a better approach would be to ignore the D&D mechanics and respect what Planescape was trying to do and what the game did and see if you can do what Fallout did when it became the spiritual successor to Wasteland.

I think if you made a game using some of the concepts of Planescape, the metaphysical ideas and the plane travel, without using the D&D mechanics, you could actually come up with a much better game. With Torment, I'd argue that the D&D base actually, in places, got in the way of the experience. It was a lot harder to make a game with those ideas in it with D&D mechanics. So much that we had to break a lot of them. We had to ignore certain spells, change up the class mechanic so that you can switch at any time you like by remembering abilities.

That was stuff that D&D didn't allow for, it was to restraining in some respects. If we did do a spiritual successor, then I don't know if we'd use the Planescape licence or attach the mechanics, perhaps something that has a different feel to Torment.

[src]
I know it influenced me on backing PoE. I undestood back then that PoE would be more like BG than PST, but I thought that MCA would play much bigger role and would incorporate at least some of his PST sequel ideas. Alas, instead I got

 

[Jedi Exile]

Obsidian pitched it as the dream RPG with the dream team and creative freedom.

And I remember that they pitched it as a new Baldur's Gate, which didn't leave much room for creative freedom.

 

[Fairfax]

Obsidian pitched it as the dream RPG with the dream team and creative freedom.

And I remember that they pitched it as a new Baldur's Gate, which didn't leave much room for creative freedom.

They also said it'd "pay homage to Planescape: Torment" and have Obsidian's signature strong reactivity. It was not unreasonable to expect something like what they'd done a few years before, in AP and FNV, for example.
The boxed copy of the game even says on the back "EVERY ACTION HAS A CONSEQUENCE".

 

[Lurker King]

If you back far enough into the One True Megathread, you will find none other than Roguey doing exactly that, and indeed being dismissed and called crazy. With several comments along the lines of, "I know what they're saying they're going to do, but I trust Obsidian, I trust that they're just saying that for. . ." With the blank being filled in by various things, such as 'marketing purposes'. Essentially saying that Obsidian was going to rip-off the Bioware DA:O crowd by promising them a certain kind of RPG, taking their money, and then delivering a Codex RPG (and that would have been the textbook definition of a rip-off).

This was, of course, before the massive about-face epic trolling that is Sawyerism. Good times.

Roguey has a more realistic view about game developers than most codexers. There is too much wishful thinking regarding some developers here, but the reality it is always more complicated than our narratives, including the ones we have being fed from developers. If anything that PoE debacle shows us that the “publishers don’t let us make great games” was a bulshit excuse used by Obsidian all these years.

growing acknowledgment that Obsidian was promoting SJW hiring policies

Everything else aside, what has this got to do with anything?

I can only speak for myself. I think this is important because (1) it is unfair to hire someone only based on inclusiveness policies over meritocracy; (2) increases the chances of shitty writing inspired by political agendas in games – see the last BG rip-off; (3) it sets a bad example for other studios. Obsidian hired Carrie Patel to be a narrative designer while they are cutting Chris Avellone’s work - which ironically also sounds like a broken record for SJW idiocy. Josh Sawyer seems like an egomaniac loon who only cares about activism and it’s completely disconnected from genuine cRPGs.

Why many devs have shit taste in RPGs?

Because they are over 50 and tired, disillusioned people working in a toxic environment.

That doesn’t explain most cases. Todd Howard probably has a fat bank account and doesn’t seem disillusioned. I bet that he isn’t playing many hardcore cRPGs nowdays because he lost interest, is burnout or developed other interests.

 

[Irenaeus]

Why many devs have shit taste in RPGs?

Because they are over 50 and tired, disillusioned people working in a toxic environment.

That doesn’t explain most cases. Todd Howard probably has a fat bank account and doesn’t seem disillusioned. I bet that he isn’t playing many hardcore cRPGs nowdays because he lost interest, is burnout or developed other interests.

Who is Todd Howard?

 

[Lurker King]

Why many devs have shit taste in RPGs?

Because they are over 50 and tired, disillusioned people working in a toxic environment.

That doesn’t explain most cases. Todd Howard probably has a fat bank account and doesn’t seem disillusioned. I bet that he isn’t playing many hardcore cRPGs nowdays because he lost interest, is burnout or developed other interests.

Who is Todd Howard?

The guy who worked on Daggerfall and recently directed the FO4 abomination.

 

[Irenaeus]

This person is not a cRPG developer.

 

[an Administrator]

Never heard of him.

 

[Lurker King]

This person is not a cRPG developer.

Well, not anymore.

 

[Bubbles]

I can only speak for myself. I think this is important because (1) it is unfair to hire someone only based on inclusiveness policies over meritocracy

So companies are usually meritocracies?