RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[Madawc]

 

[Belegarsson]

Reading this thread is like inflicting pain inside

 

[Infinitron]

I even got offered to become the new head of Black Isle Studios, which I couldn’t do, and didn’t think I’d be good for the job, so I didn't take it.

Wait, what? THIS Black Isle Studios? http://www.rpgcodex.net/article.php?id=8689

Tell us your opinion of Herve Caen, Chris. Did he ever manage to successfully offload those Interplay IPs? http://www.rpgcodex.net/article.php?id=10399

 

[Chris Avellone]

This is feeling less and less like the basis for a nice revenge story and more like a pure tragedy. That one of the last great RPG studios has been so heinously mismanaged is such a fucking shame for the whole genre and all of us who love it. Presumably KOTOR 2 could’ve been released in a finished state if not for Parker, which means we wouldn’t have had to wait years for the restored content mod to transform it from a flawed gem into a masterpiece. Who knows, we might have gotten Stormlands or a truly completed Tyranny or, waaay back in the day, the very cool looking Torn.

Edit—mods, admins, oldfags: do Brian Mitsoda or George Zeits have accounts here? They might have a lot to add to the discussion.

Chris Avellone I feel like you’re on a roll here with these Obsidian management failures, so how about the last two owners, Chris Jones and Darren? Were they particularly egregious or just too spineless to stand up for competence? Or, as some of have speculated, did FU and Parker have enough shares or board seats between them to dictate policy when they were in agreement? I imagine it would be very helpful to many of your former colleagues to know exactly where the rot is spreading from.

By the same token, if Feargus and Parker were somehow forced out, would you be willing to work with Obsidian again assuming they paid you standard human stretch goal rates? Like let’s say Strauss Zelnick loves Indiana, buys the studio, and forces these douchebags into retirement?

Quick response: Darren and Jones are waiting for their payouts. Darren has said as much to me. Jones has said as much to me with his lack of action on anything.

Longer response: While Darren at least cares about games on some level, Jones doesn’t at all and has mastered the art of saying “no” to just about everything – he’d make a great technical director at a company that doesn’t make games, because he could find a way to say “no” to everything and dismiss it out of hand.

I was very surprised to see him as a lead programmer on Indiana, but not surprised to see that vanish, as Jones doesn’t tend to last long when there’s actual work to be done – he often can’t be bothered. (This was a problem as far back as KOTOR2, which I did confront him on – he also did it on Alpha Protocol before he lost interest in a few months because it was too much work.)

Jones is also one of the ones I point to in Fallout 2’s troubled development = Feargus kept trying to cater to to make sure he was all right, to make sure he was happy, to make sure he was pampered – but Jones was only biding his time so he could ditch Black Isle and switch over to Troika for more money and get a bigger payout. Meanwhile, his officemate (doing actual programming) was suffering like hell with no programming relief despite an experienced programmer sitting 5 feet away who could have helped with the Studio's workload at a time where many people were in danger of getting laid off. Jones first is the Jones' rule. He was also threatened with being de-ownered, but the difficult issue here is that I think Feargus was right to do so - he just consumes resources with no benefit to a project (at least he was for ALL the years I was working there).

Darren’s a frustrating case b/c he’s very smart, he’s more knowledgable about game best practices than most of the owners, and has empathy, but he’s so focused on getting his cash and such an abject coward and afraid of rocking the boat, that his opinions are useless because there’s no strength behind them – he caves at the first sign of resistance. He used to try and tell me what a valiant employee fighter he was. Through email. How tough he was for employee rights. Through email. I told him to his face I thought he was too afraid to raise anything that might get him in trouble.

He was at least as bad at communication and follow-up as both Feargus and Parker (probably moreso on the communication side), the biggest problem is he just seemed distracted all the time.

He was, however, approachable by a lot of employees because he came across as friendly, but he often couldn’t do anything to help things except “hey, buddy, how are you?” “Buddy, tell me more.” vs. actually, really helping someone.

Darren also spent forever on the PoE1 Backer Portal, providing further proof you shouldn’t ask an owner to do content work, it slows everything down – that’s not even a criticism, just the truth. No one seemed to absorb this.

Darren also had an amazing talent of both agreeing to Feargus’s requests (sort of) then not following them once he was out of Feargus’s radius… oftentimes when we had decided something at an owner meeting and agreed on a procedure, I noticed Darren would simply ignore it and not follow the procedure - even when someone needed it to be done.

I asked him about it (as a precursor to a larger question as to why he hadn't done something according to procedure).

And when I asked him why, he would simply say, “well, yeah, I haven’t talked to Feargus about that yet.” But we had talked. All of us. And we had agreed. In my mind, all I could think of was this person was being a blocker for no reason that made sense. And now he wasn't doing what we all agreed to until you talk... to Feargus... again?

As he was being "buddy" with me all I could think of (and then said) was: You won’t follow the procedure until you talk to him? After we talked? When is that? And that also means you won’t actually do what was decided until that vague future date? My dinosaur brain would simply say: Do it now, Darren, for fuck's sake, because you're making a mess where we already decided there wasn't one.

It was frustrating, but it was also one of those situations that because Darren was one of those who nodded and said the right things and even though he completely disregarded what Feargus told him to do, he got a pass because he acted like he was falling in line. Frankly, it was garbage. Parker did the same thing - and even said as much to our publishers as early on as KOTOR2 when diminishing Feargus's thoughts on production issues because Feargus was "out of touch and didn't understand producers or production anymore."

Jones at least had the balls to tell Feargus he was full of shit and we shouldn't do what he was saying (which quickly made him one of the most unpopular owners, because he could often argue with facts). It also made him the target of "well, you don't sound like you want to be an owner anymore" discussions, which weren't really discussions.

I will also say because Darren agrees with Feargus when pressured or frightened, that does make him very valuable when voting needs to be done, and it was good of Feargus to choose him to be one of the production triad of owners and give him a large % of shares to make that vote worthwhile.

Darren rarely, if ever, spoke to me (he was afraid to). However, while we didn’t have a good working relationship on Dark Alliance 1 back at Black Isle, I realized later on it was because Feargus never told Darren that he (Feargus) was coming into my office every other day to give advice and continual dumb changes on the story, so it required a lot of iteration, which (to my error) I didn't realize Darren couldn't be aware of because Feargus would tell him (right?), and I'm sure it surprised Darren to find me in a frustrated mood (Feargus' story iterations ranged from a wide variety of crap ideas, where you had to dig deep and wide to find the good in them - his craptastic story skills also caused a lot of problems on Dungeon Siege 3).

This overall lack of communication continued at Obsidian.

You don’t hear much about Darren, and that’s Darren's desire – he wants to stay "off the grid," he doesn’t want to run projects anymore (it's too much pressure), and he wants to be everyone’s friend while helping (almost) no one until he gets his payout, serves his time for a new master for a few years, then vanishes with his gold. I respect him for his insights, but not his character, which is weak and cowardly.

 

[Imoens pet]

Shit, this just keeps getting good.

 

[Outlander]

This thread gives a whole new meaning to:

 

[Imoens pet]

Chris Avellone I know you can't talk about Pathfinder: Kingmaker, but is it any good so far?

 

[Edmund Spenser]

 

[Infinitron]

Chris Avellone Is there any truth to the fan theory that Bethesda hate and are intimidated by the popularity of Fallout: New Vegas?

(I hope you can treat FO:NV with objectivity despite whatever ~process issues~ you may have suffered from during its development, the game's cult classic status is undeniable)

 

[Chris Avellone]

Chris Avellone Is there any truth to the fan theory that Bethesda hate and are intimidated by the popularity of Fallout: New Vegas?

(I hope you can treat FO:NV with objectivity despite whatever ~process issues~ you may have suffered from during its development, the game's cult classic status is undeniable)

I honestly have no idea. Whenever I have met/spoken to Todd Howard, he was always very pleasant and didn't seem pissed or resentful or anything of the sort.

 

[Quillon]

Give MCA a "Judge of Characters" tag.

 

[Elex]

Chris Avellone I know you can't talk about Pathfinder: Kingmaker, but is it any good so far?

you can watch the beta it’s obvious what game is better between poeII and p:k

 

[Imoens pet]

Chris Avellone I know you can't talk about Pathfinder: Kingmaker, but is it any good so far?

you can watch the beta it’s obvious wath game is better between poeII and p:k

Ohh yeah, Imma go search it up on youtube, thanks man.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Holy cow. Chris Avellone, working at the highest levels of Obsidian sounds a lot like working at the highest levels of the Trump White House.

Please turn your former partners into NPCs.

Edit: come on, even if you love Trump, does he seem like the kind of guy who's happy to accept constructive criticism or listen to things he doesn't want to hear?

 

[Bohr]

Never heard much about Jones before. This thread is going to be quoted for years.

 

[Taka-Haradin puolipeikko]

Resetera thread.

I want to believe Chris because I have loved his contribution to gaming up to this point, but I also didn't know he hung out on the Codex and joined in with their shit. I may be losing my respect for both Obsidian and Avellone here (probably more for Avellone since he is an individual not a corporation and knowing he shares some awful views is... *sigh*).

 

[fobia]

Resetera thread.

I want to believe Chris because I have loved his contribution to gaming up to this point, but I also didn't know he hung out on the Codex and joined in with their shit. I may be losing my respect for both Obsidian and Avellone here (probably more for Avellone since he is an individual not a corporation and knowing he shares some awful LEFTIST views is... *sigh*).

FTFY.

 

[J_C]

I don’t have any issues with Josh, he’s not part of the upper management I mention here (he wasn’t even Design Director until a while after I left, I believe), and I think he’s a good Project Director.

Fucking finally. How long we have waited for this sentence, and finally we can put this issue to rest. :D

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

I honestly have no idea. Whenever I have met/spoken to Todd Howard, he was always very pleasant and didn't seem pissed or resentful or anything of the sort.

Meetings with Todd Howard, confirmed. Oh my droogs, could there be an MCA driven Fallout in the works? First time I've been excited about a possible Bethesda release in, well, ever.

 

[Chris Avellone]

Never heard much about Jones before. This thread is going to be quoted for years.

Jones has kept himself off the radar - and off of actual work - for many, many years.

As much as it was frustrating, I have to respect that kind of dodgy talent - and plus, he's got the privilege of remaining an owner despite threats from the CEO, so he knows how to go with the flow. "No worries, Gus, I'll keep my mouth shut - I need my payout. Whatever you say - forget what I was saying 5 minutes ago about all the facts about how things are off the rails - if you are threatening to un-owner me, I'll stay the course because I need that money."

What equally amazed me, however, was how quickly he would turn on programmers doing actual work and condemn them (one of our best project directors - who was a programmer, and an excellent one - was frequently hammered by him to the point where I wondered if it was because the PD was a programmer who was proving he could do far more than the baseline Jones had set, which is immediately threatening to a superior).

Jones also used the word "impossible" more liberally than he should in terms of what programming could do - and would never contradict it even when he realized it wasn't true, which was equally amazing. If you ever wonder why KOTOR2 couldn't auto-read save files (like every other RPG on console and PC could once BioWare decided to make it so), you can thank Jones for evaluating it as "impossible." Again, please note that he realized he was wrong, but he chose never to say anything about that. I have no idea why.

The only joy I had was when Jones and Parker would go at each other's throats (they hated each other for the simple reason that even if Parker was flawed, at least he did something - and Jones was all about not doing anything). Overall, as little as I respect Parker, at least he saw Jones for the production "oh, there's no way to do this" blocker that he was.

 

[Deadass]

hey Chris Avellone, new studio when?

 

[Chris Avellone]

Wait, what? THIS Black Isle Studios? http://www.rpgcodex.net/article.php?id=8689

Tell us your opinion of Herve Caen, Chris. Did he ever manage to successfully offload those Interplay IPs? http://www.rpgcodex.net/article.php?id=10399

When I talked to Herve, he was strangely... pleasant. I was expecting something else based on everything others had said, but he simply tried to be making the best of a bad situation.

 

[Quillon]

There was far too many "Final journal of Jonas" in PoE, haven't read it. Wonder if its related somehow

 

[Chris Avellone]

Meetings with Todd Howard, confirmed. Oh my droogs, could there be an MCA driven Fallout in the works? First time I've been excited about a possible Bethesda release in, well, ever.

I didn't say meetings, I should clarify - I would occasionally run into Todd at functions (ex: Prey announcement event) and he was very pleasant. He also had a cool jacket I kinda wanted to try and snatch and run.

Even in our meetings on New Vegas, I thought he was very considerate of what we were doing, and so was Emil, who was also very polite and friendly.

 

[J_C]

In the meantime, poe2 is already in top sellers.

Good, I want that game to succeed, despite these shinanigans at Obsidian. The developers deserve it.