RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[Karellen]

Hey Chris Avellone, here's something I've been wondering about that might or might not relate to the way Obsidian has been run. I've thought for years that for a company its size, Obsidian has underperformed when it comes to art direction - on the whole, the games are sort of drab and generic in terms of how they look and sound, not so much technically but in terms of overall design. Meanwhile, you've got indie games like Banner Saga that really manage to leverage having great and consistent art and music, so clearly good art direction isn't necessarily incredibly expensive.

Do you think something in the structure of Obsidian was holding back competent people from giving their best in this respect, or did it have to do with working on other companies' IP? Do you think that this would improve with better organisation?

 

[Elwro]

I've said it many times, but maybe once more: even though I obviously have no idea about the internal stuff that was going on with NV, I want to point out that while people often say stuff like the above 'Josh cranked up NV in 18 months', John Gonzalez was the Creative Lead on this, right?

He was, and I think he understood the narrative importance of the Fallout series more than anyone else on FNV working on the story arc (...)

John is a great writer, and he's very easy and up-front to work with. Would continue to work with him on future projects without a doubt.

All the rich publishers lurking on the Codex using fake accounts, I hope you are monitoring this thread closely! :D

Not that it matters to anyone, but I would love to play a game by a team involving the talents of Avellone & Gonzalez. (That is, most likely I'd buy the Ultra-Awesome-Collector's Edition and shelve it due to lack of time, but hey, that's real life™ for ya.)

 

[JarlFrank]

There seems to be a pattern of Chris Avellone disliking "asymmetries" in world design. In Fallout: New Vegas, you start in NCR territory and there's no Legion companion, why? In PoE, Calisca and Heodan are temporary companions who have to die, why?

But aren't asymmetries, arbitrary as they may seem, more interesting and believable than perfect symmetry? Symmetry always feels formulaic to me, while asymmetry feels more natural.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

There seems to be a pattern of Chris Avellone disliking "asymmetries" in world design. In Fallout: New Vegas, you start in NCR territory and there's no Legion companion, why? In PoE, Calisca and Heodan are temporary companions who have to die, why?

Hey Chris, someone recently described Infinitron as “a bit of a cock,” either on the Obsidian boards or SomethingAwful. Would you agree with this characterization?

 

[Infinitron]

That honestly wasn't meant to be a hostile line of questioning, although I suppose I could have phrased it in a more friendly manner.

Chris had/has a different mindset and priorities than other people at Obsidian and that's interesting to think about.

 

[Quillon]

So in this situation you are the underdog now.

Not at all, and I wouldn't want to take control of Obsidian - I'd love if the developers found better owners, however, and ones that shared the royalty gains (vs. select folks on the team like Adam and Josh) and when they finally agreed to share, the would share at a much, much higher level than PoE1 allowed (regardless of owner decisions). This would also be shared across projects (Armored Warfare) that helped keep PoE afloat, even if they weren't recognized for it.

I didn't get much of this, my english is prolly not good enough So there were devs who shared their royalty gains with other devs and Josh and Adam did not?

 

[Taurist]

felipepepe , I am sympathetic with some of your complaints, but I think you are being unfair in blaming the staff. There has been a sea change in general in internet culture since 2012ish. You cant get that back any more than you can get the web culture of 2003 or usenet any more. More and more discussion now takes place on discords, or reddit or twitter rather than traditional forums like this. That will reduce the number of potential contributions. Look at Ludo Lense, people want to post their reviews on youtube and get some revenue rather than on a forum.

The political culture is also different. This has happened to every forum I have lurked or posted on over the last 5 years, within a diverse amount of interests (fiction, gaming, hobbiest electronics etc). To paraphrase Sadiq Khan, Nazi faggots are part and parcel of posting on a non-SJW ruled forum. It's unfortunate, but it all traditional forums in 2018, regardless of their focus, are either RPGcodex or Resetera.

 

[Dreed]

I spent 5 years on the Codex!

Let's celebrate by reading the long awaited Avellone interview and the complementary thread

 

[Blaine]

That honestly wasn't meant to be a hostile line of questioning, although I suppose I could have phrased it in a more friendly manner.

Chris had/has a different mindset and priorities than other people at Obsidian and that's interesting to think about.

You will address Lord Avellone with respect and perform the proper obeisances, or else!

Yeah, that's pretty much the thread now, sad to say. I wonder if RPG Watch's daily user count is lower than usual this week?

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

That honestly wasn't meant to be a hostile line of questioning, although I suppose I could have phrased it in a more friendly manner.

Chris had/has a different mindset and priorities than other people at Obsidian and that's interesting to think about.

I just really like that quote because what does it even mean? I think he meant prick. Maybe it’s a British thing.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

That's a pretty shameful way of trying do discredit him.

His anger and his lust for power have already done that.

no need for the ad hominems, it only makes you looks deranged.

Yes, those were my thoughts exactly when Chris started spewing ad hominems. Glad that you agree it only makes him look deranged.

 

[Abu Antar]

Didn’t Chris want the temporary companions of PoE to be permanent?

 

[Prime Junta]

That honestly wasn't meant to be a hostile line of questioning, although I suppose I could have phrased it in a more friendly manner.

Chris had/has a different mindset and priorities than other people at Obsidian and that's interesting to think about.

It wasn't hostile. Analyzing someone's thought processes when they're in the room is just irritating AF. And of course there's the general background of him having given you a few good thumps already.

(You could have phrased it as a question -- "are you bothered by asymmetries, for example" etc.)

 

[Elex]

Re: Unions (or making it into Prime Junta 's kill list)

Of course, form unions. Economic miracles like those of Brazil, Greece, and the awesome quality of US highschools would not be possible without the god given right to form a union.

However, do not assume that the union leaders are going to give a shit about the organism that feeds you -they will be much more interested in improving their resume for their upcoming political career. So please don't be surprised when the organism that feeds you... dies.

Also, for some reason workers tend to assume that their bosses have an obligation of giving them a job -they don't. The US industries keep outsourcing work to cheaper countries, and you think this is a good time for you to form unions and demand more *as a group*? I will tell you exactly what is going to happen: at some point your businessmen will flee to greener (for them) pastures, and you 'll be out of work.

So, assuming we are not here to kill the (already shaky) US economy, forget about unions, work on your skills and CV, offer the best value you can on an individual level, and reap what you harvest.

what about outsourcing union?

 

[Cosmo]

But aren't asymmetries, arbitrary as they may seem, more interesting and believable than perfect symmetry? Symmetry always feels formulaic to me, while asymmetry feels more natural.

In a game world built around factions, you HAVE to have symmetry in order to achieve a proper agonistic choice when the player has to take a stance.
Plus in a system where everything makes sense because it is authored (even procedural worlds derive from a seed, i.e. a kernel of "sense"), asymmetry is an illusion (a crafted one that gives the impression of a living, breathing world when properly done, but an illusion nonetheless).

What feels contrived however is when you only have binary options, that forces the player's hand into going into one extreme or the other. Usually introducing a third option is enough to break this abusive symmetry, be it a moral one (good vs evil), a functional one (resolving a quest by sneaking vs combat), or one that spans worldbuilding as a whole (Legion vs NCR for example). In all those cases a third option introduces some salutary wiggle-room for the player, but also by breaking the binary logic enables us to choose, mix and match approaches, instead of emphasizing two other-end-the-spectrum elements.

 

[Chris Avellone]

Didn’t Chris want the temporary companions of PoE to be permanent?

I did, I admit it - for very good story reasons (I felt the same way about Sunny Smiles in FNV).

It's a very long narrative design rationale, though, which can be discarded.

 

[Cosmo]

I did, I admit it - for very good story reasons (I felt the same way about Sunny Smiles in FNV).

It's a very long narrative design rationale, though, which can be discarded.

Calisca was inherently linked to the hollowborn crisis, but what was supposed to be Heodan's "hook" ?

 

[Chris Avellone]

In a game world built around factions, you HAVE to have symmetry in order to achieve a proper agonistic choice when the player has to take a stance.

Yes, this. Totally agree. I felt FNV made Caesar's Legion "choice," mostly garbage and unfulfilling, when one could have included more room for player choice.

 

[Blaine]

And of course there's the general background of him having given you a few good thumps already.

*sounds of polishing intensify*

 

[Tacgnol]

In a game world built around factions, you HAVE to have symmetry in order to achieve a proper agonistic choice when the player has to take a stance.

Yes, this. Totally agree. I felt FNV made Caesar's Legion "choice," mostly garbage and unfulfilling, when one could have included more room for player choice.

I always wished FNV had made more of an effort to show the "good" side of the Legion, i.e. the law and order they brought to conquered areas.

You only ever got a few passing remarks in game.

 

[Infinitron]

In a game world built around factions, you HAVE to have symmetry in order to achieve a proper agonistic choice when the player has to take a stance.

Yes, this. Totally agree. I felt FNV made Caesar's Legion "choice," mostly garbage and unfulfilling, when one could have included more room for player choice.

Right, this is where your different priorities are apparent. Sometimes these asymmetries are arbitrary, but sometimes the game designer might want to make a narrative statement that supersedes player choice. The story of a neutral Courier who is equally encouraged to choose NCR or Legion isn't the same as the story of a Courier who has to do something transgressive, to cross the line from where he started.

Sometimes not so balanced, after all.

 

[Cosmo]

You only ever got a few passing remarks in game.

Exact same thing in PoE for animancy.

 

[Blaine]

As I said in the FNV thread a couple of months ago, we're lucky we got the asymmetrical Caesar's Legion we did. During a time crunch, the "bad guys" portion is the portion that gets pieces chopped off, because most people suffer from a pathological need to be the good guy.

This explains not only RPG storylines, but also modern politics.

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Tacgnol, come on, any organization that loves crucifictions can’t be all bad.

 

[Chippy]

I wouldn't ask MCA to answer/commit to this question, but I'm wondering (as a dissilusioned Kickstarter backer who put a fuckalot of money into W2,TTON, & POE) if MCA had the right people around him - would a 4m budget would be enough for a game with the standards of Fallout, BG2 or PST?. W2 was okay, but I thought it had too many cook's in the kitchen, and I haven't played TTON yet. POE was shit, and they blew the budget.

Bioware once said they couldn't remake BG2 with ME production values because it would cost too much, then we were told that these games could be made more efficiently with today's technology (Unity,etc). So far I'm not really convinced.