RPG Codex Interview: Chris Avellone on Pillars Cut Content, Game Development Hierarchies and More

[Blaine]

J_C They're not gonna show you the Big Board, dude.

 

[Lycra Suit]

Sawyer, Carrie Patel, and ? Been noticing that for a while and it's what made me think they're going to have a hard time going forward selling themselves as story people.

Yeah because they suck.

 

[Kem0sabe]

This might be pointless here at the Codex, but I will share some of my experiences at Obsidian.

It's good to hear your perspective and be reminded that the place perhaps isn't an unmitigated den of stinking evil. Do take that advice and get better.

Even so I have to point out that these aren't the issues that Chris has been complaining about at all. A company can treat its employees well as humans, while being a complete clusterfuck about process and organisation, as well as hosting a whole bunch of other pathologies. Moreover, it can go full Mr. Hyde if a valued employee doesn't show sufficient appreciation for all the nice things the company does for him.

I don't think ANYONE at this company would claim it is perfect, it isn't. I have been vocal and consistent about problem areas here, and so have others - and btw, we weren't fired for voicing our opinions. In fact, one of the most true things I can say about this company is how hard they DO work to improve the process. They are constantly trying to improve it - if things were truly broken and hopeless, we wouldn't make it. Look at the facts, the average independent game studio doesn't even make it two years. Obsidian is about to celebrate 15 years, so clearly we are doing more right than wrong.

It's not more complicated than that.

To be fair, Obsidian only made it because they begged random interweb strangers for money to stay afloat in the form of the PoE KS...

Any company that has to beg to stay in business is not an example of good management.

That is not a completely accurate statement.

We had Southpark, and shortly thereafter Armored Warfare. We were not in great shape, but we weren't in danger of closing.

What PoE did do, was give us a way to create and own our own IP, and it saved the jobs of a lot people. I am not diminishing what PoE Kickstarter accomplished, it was amazing and it was critical for putting us on a road to successfully being more independent

The PoE team are heroes (at least to me), their vision and their hardwork has been an inspiration to the rest of us and it inspires the Project Indiana team as well.

Thats not the doom and gloom image that transpired in the PoE documentary.

 

[Anthony Davis]

This might be pointless here at the Codex, but I will share some of my experiences at Obsidian.

It's good to hear your perspective and be reminded that the place perhaps isn't an unmitigated den of stinking evil. Do take that advice and get better.

Even so I have to point out that these aren't the issues that Chris has been complaining about at all. A company can treat its employees well as humans, while being a complete clusterfuck about process and organisation, as well as hosting a whole bunch of other pathologies. Moreover, it can go full Mr. Hyde if a valued employee doesn't show sufficient appreciation for all the nice things the company does for him.

I don't think ANYONE at this company would claim it is perfect, it isn't. I have been vocal and consistent about problem areas here, and so have others - and btw, we weren't fired for voicing our opinions. In fact, one of the most true things I can say about this company is how hard they DO work to improve the process. They are constantly trying to improve it - if things were truly broken and hopeless, we wouldn't make it. Look at the facts, the average independent game studio doesn't even make it two years. Obsidian is about to celebrate 15 years, so clearly we are doing more right than wrong.

It's not more complicated than that.

To be fair, Obsidian only made it because they begged random interweb strangers for money to stay afloat in the form of the PoE KS...

Any company that has to beg to stay in business is not an example of good management.

That is not a completely accurate statement.

We had Southpark, and shortly thereafter Armored Warfare. We were not in great shape, but we weren't in danger of closing.

What PoE did do, was give us a way to create and own our own IP, and it saved the jobs of a lot people. I am not diminishing what PoE Kickstarter accomplished, it was amazing and it was critical for putting us on a road to successfully being more independent

The PoE team are heroes (at least to me), their vision and their hardwork has been an inspiration to the rest of us and it inspires the Project Indiana team as well.

Anthony, I'm sure you can't divulge details, but just tell us. Is this topic, and Chris' comments are a hot topic right now at Obsidian? Just a yes or no answer will suffice.

Honestly, no. At least not at my level (the trenches).

 

[Anthony Davis]

This might be pointless here at the Codex, but I will share some of my experiences at Obsidian.

It's good to hear your perspective and be reminded that the place perhaps isn't an unmitigated den of stinking evil. Do take that advice and get better.

Even so I have to point out that these aren't the issues that Chris has been complaining about at all. A company can treat its employees well as humans, while being a complete clusterfuck about process and organisation, as well as hosting a whole bunch of other pathologies. Moreover, it can go full Mr. Hyde if a valued employee doesn't show sufficient appreciation for all the nice things the company does for him.

I don't think ANYONE at this company would claim it is perfect, it isn't. I have been vocal and consistent about problem areas here, and so have others - and btw, we weren't fired for voicing our opinions. In fact, one of the most true things I can say about this company is how hard they DO work to improve the process. They are constantly trying to improve it - if things were truly broken and hopeless, we wouldn't make it. Look at the facts, the average independent game studio doesn't even make it two years. Obsidian is about to celebrate 15 years, so clearly we are doing more right than wrong.

It's not more complicated than that.

To be fair, Obsidian only made it because they begged random interweb strangers for money to stay afloat in the form of the PoE KS...

Any company that has to beg to stay in business is not an example of good management.

That is not a completely accurate statement.

We had Southpark, and shortly thereafter Armored Warfare. We were not in great shape, but we weren't in danger of closing.

What PoE did do, was give us a way to create and own our own IP, and it saved the jobs of a lot people. I am not diminishing what PoE Kickstarter accomplished, it was amazing and it was critical for putting us on a road to successfully being more independent

The PoE team are heroes (at least to me), their vision and their hardwork has been an inspiration to the rest of us and it inspires the Project Indiana team as well.

Thats not the doom and gloom image that transpired in the PoE documentary.

That doom and gloom was around the Stormlands team, and that was VERY real. The Stormlands team essentially became the PoE team.

The rest of the company was working on their projects.

Not that the other teams weren't worried or concerned.

The PoE Kickstarter really reinvigorated the company and I credit Adam and Sawyer for that 100%. EDIT: I should be more clear. I credit their VISION for the PoE and the Kickstarter. Obviously the owners signed off on it too.

 

[FreeKaner]

And I'm not going to talk about it. I try to be a positive person, and most of the time I think I succeed.

I am also not a founder, nor am I privy to founder happenings.


But culture flows from the top, and this is overall, a very positive place to work. Not perfect, but very positive.

A positive environment is not necessarily a successful environment. In fact it does seem that a lack of appropriate negativity regarding the mismanagement and miscommunications led to the situation we are in now. A lot of pent up negativity that's lost by a top down undeserved positive approach that does not acknowledge employee concerns and conflicts.

 

[Shadenuat]

I have been at Obsidian for a total of... 12 years.

That doesn't contradict rumours of nepotism. You've been there 12 years, so you're part of the family and get treated well?

The PoE team are heroes (at least to me), their vision and their hardwork has been an inspiration to the rest of us and it inspires the Project Indiana team as well.

And one of the lead heroes thinks that traditional games and working on them sucks.

 

[Blaine]

And I'm not going to talk about it. I try to be a positive person, and most of the time I think I succeed.

I am also not a founder, nor am I privy to founder happenings.


But culture flows from the top, and this is overall, a very positive place to work. Not perfect, but very positive.

I believe you, but people's perceptions also change based on circumstances. What feels positive to you might not to someone who is disillusioned for what may (or may not) be completely legitimate reasons.

The crew of the ship are usually happy when the sailing is smooth, but what happens when it gets rough? I'd say that's the true test of a company's character. Is it a positive place to depart from, for that matter?

If you all choose to keep mum about the circumstances of Chris' departure (and I have no doubt you have to, otherwise you'll get the rope there at the office), then all we've got to go on is his statement. Personally, I'm still heavily inclined to believe he isn't lying.

In other words, it's entirely possible to believe both of you.

 

[AwesomeButton]

they did make an attempt to leverage that into a far more confining separation agreement that would remove my right to work on RPGs

Hold on, hold on! Does this mean what I think it means? Does this mean that Feargus has an answer to the question we've all been after, all these years?

"What is an RPG?" Chris could have just stared at him with a straight face and asked him.

 

[Outlander]

This thread is going places.

 

[Daedalos]

Full damage control protocols enabled, I see.

Misery and happiness is really in the eye of the beholder, isn't it? Yeah, it's great that Obsidian treated you nicely, Anthony, but does that excuse the behaviour and conduct that Chris was put to by the company? (if its true)

A whole lot of good doesn't make up for one (or several) major fucking mistake(s), you know, at least not in my book.

 

[Mebrilia the Viera Queen]

Feel-good stories about Obsidian cupping your balls and whispering into your ear that you're handsome and a good boy are nice, but is MCA lying about getting hosed when he left Obsidian, or isn't he?

I've read all of the

posts in this thread, to my knowledge, but I don't recall seeing an answer that specific charge, only protestations that Obsidian's corporate culture isn't as rotten as Chris lets on.

Chris getting hosed is actually the main point of contention here, let's not forget. I'm sure it was totally his fault, he brought it on himself, etc., but that too is fairly irrelevant.

And I'm not going to talk about it. I try to be a positive person, and most of the time I think I succeed.

I am also not a founder, nor am I privy to founder happenings.


But culture flows from the top, and this is overall, a very positive place to work. Not perfect, but very positive.

Is actually interesting how you guys come in this forums to share your version of the story health problem aside (and i hope this kind of problems will be solved to never return again) is clear as the sun something happened is not only Chris that left Obsidian with a bitter taste on his mouth others did. I have to admit i was not expecting obsidian to come here and post that actually surprised me.

But seems to me instead of telling your version of the story you just went here playing the violin how saint and pure Obsidian is... And sorry i am not falling for it.

Is terrible when a talent such as Chris Avellone leave a company and then do a coming out like that is a great fail most for Obsidian that could had between the hand a true talent and a legend.

Something is stinking here and i am more inclined to believe to Avellone. I am not calling you a Liar of course when family is in trouble is always a terrible thing for everyone but i have to admit.. i dislike this sad violin play instead to ear your version of the story guys.

Stinks like damage control.

 

[Quillon]

The crew of the ship are usually happy when the sailing is smooth, but what happens when it gets rough? I'd say that's the true test of a company's character.

Obs usually did sail the rough seas tho. It was stormlands up until PoE/having an IP phase

 

[Fry]

Truly broken and hopeless is one thing. The CEO pressuring Chris to sign an NDA and non-competition clause forbidding him from working on cRPGs is another thing altogether. That shit just wack, yo.

Wack, yes. And as I've noted previously, non-competes are unenforceable in California, so also pointless.

This is the problem with Avellone's tale. It sounds so legally stupid that I have a hard time believing it went down as described.

 

[lukaszek]

deterministic system > RNG

 

[mondblut]

https://www.glassdoor.de/Bewertungen/Obsidian-Entertainment-Bewertungen-E151435.htm

OMG, no senior women in senior positions? Call the femquisition!

 

[Blaine]

they did make an attempt to leverage that into a far more confining separation agreement that would remove my right to work on RPGs

Hold on, hold on! Does this mean what I think it means? Does this mean that Feargus has an answer to the question we've all been after, all these years?

"What is an RPG?" Chris could have just stared at him with a straight face and asked him.

 

[Infinitron]

Truly broken and hopeless is one thing. The CEO pressuring Chris to sign an NDA and non-competition clause forbidding him from working on cRPGs is another thing altogether. That shit just wack, yo.

Wack, yes. And as I've noted previously, non-competes are unenforceable in California, so also pointless.

This is the problem with Avellone's tale. It sounds so legally stupid that I have a hard time believing it went down as described.

Was the non-compete really "forever"? That doesn't sound real.

If somebody makes me sign a non-compete that forbids me from working on RPGs for the next week, I could technically say "They made me sign an agreement that removed my right to work on RPGs".

 

[The Great ThunThun*]

Anthony Davis

I think you are engaging in, maybe even from a good-natured attempt, but nevertheless, damage control. No amount of utopian conditions at Obsidian are enough to justify what was done to Chris. You should be addressing those concerns if you are genuine and not spouting stuff that no one here can attest.

Infinitron

Are you for real? Dude, how is asking MC F A to stop working on RPGs for even one nano-second a good thing?

 

[Mebrilia the Viera Queen]

Anthony Davis

I think you are engaging in, maybe even from a good-natured attempt, but nevertheless, damage control. No amount of utopian conditions at Obsidian are enough to justify what was done to Chris. You should be addressing those concerns if you are genuine and not spouting stuff that no one here can attest.

Infinitron

Are you for real? Dude, how is asking MC F A to stop working on RPGs for even one nano-second a good thing?

This and this... is not telling us that Obsidian is saving kittens that can buy me sorry...

 

[Kyl Von Kull]

Truly broken and hopeless is one thing. The CEO pressuring Chris to sign an NDA and non-competition clause forbidding him from working on cRPGs is another thing altogether. That shit just wack, yo.

Wack, yes. And as I've noted previously, non-competes are unenforceable in California, so also pointless.

This is the problem with Avellone's tale. It sounds so legally stupid that I have a hard time believing it went down as described.

My read was that they were trying to intimidate him into staying with the company, in which case there's a certain logic to making your threats as extreme as possible. It's not a great way to manage people, but it's also pretty common.

Didn't Chris once describe being an owner at Obsidian as very much like being married to five different husbands? In that context, think of Feargus as a jilted wife: "leave me and you'll never work on another RPG again! Oh, and I'm keeping the kids (which would be the money)!"

Anthony Davis makes some good points; just because it was a toxic environment for Chris (and perhaps Gonzales and Ziets) that doesn't mean it's toxic for everyone. MCA's issues with management are not things a typical employee would have to deal with. Sounds kind of cliquey, but then most workplaces are.

 

[AwesomeButton]

Anthony Davis

I think you are engaging in, maybe even from a good-natured attempt, but nevertheless, damage control. No amount of utopian conditions at Obsidian are enough to justify what was done to Chris. You should be addressing those concerns if you are genuine and not spouting stuff that no one here can attest.

He isn't addressing them because he wasn't there. It would be just gossip. It's actually better he isn't engaging in that.

 

[Quillon]

and not spouting stuff that no one here can attest.

But you can attest to every syllable MCA has written here as you witnessed it firsthand.

I'm not saying anyone's lying but we're basically taking their words for everything

 

[fantadomat]

There are no perfect companies,you do the job and if you don't like it you are free to pack your bags. Obsidian sound like a decent place to work,if it was total shit Avellone would have left long time ago. Some time people get annoyed at each other and decide to part ways. Don't see what the big drama is.

 

[Riddler]

OK so let's do a quick evaluation:

Chris thinks that processes are horribly designed and enforced, people are great but miserable and a lot of people have left. He also thinks that Obsidian is infested with nepotism and bad owner meddling.

Anthony has had the opposite experience, both personally and his impression of his colleagues.

What are the differences?

• Chris was at the owner level.
• Chris worked in writing narrative design and Anthony in programming/tech.

Conclusion: there seems to have been something very rotten in the writing department (and owner level?), But possibly not the rest of the company, since all the great writers seems to have left, some of them quite disgruntled. Obsidian used to have the very best collection of writers in the Industry, by far, and now who do they have? Newbies and nobodies? Not to shit on Carrie or anyone but they aren't exactly Avellone, Ziets, Gonzales or Stuart...