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Interview RPG Codex Interview: Dan Vávra (Warhorse Studios)

Metro

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Actually, the combat in Ultima VII was, in fact, its weakest feature. Also, please don't make a fucking LARP simulator. A good open world ARPG is one where there's full exploration (this includes climbing and jumping and not shitty on-rails path design like in TWitcher), mutually exclusive branches of character development (i.e. you can't be jack of all trades), npcs that not only carry out their daily business but also react in meaningful ways depending on your past/present actions, multiple solutions to quests, etc. etc. Don't really care for games that give you every option and leave it up to the player to enforce parameters. I couldn't care less about 'playing a role.'
 

Dexter

Arcane
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Messages
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Skyrim [..] only western open world RPG worth mentioning.
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What's the point of realism? RPGs aren't about reallism! They're games. And historically, they're turn based games. What you're making seems (but we don't know much about it yet) just like an action game where player skills matter more than character skills. That's the very opposite of what an RPG actually is. Nothing wrong with building an action game. But don't claim it's an rpg simply because it's open world and in a medieval setting.

That being said, I like your comment about how castles and Middle Ages are most often incorrectlly represented in video games. I don't know if it's really because of the nationality of developers or simply because they simply have no interest in history and never did any research on the subject (it's not that hard to check what a real castle was like in medieval Europe ; just open wikipedia ffs!)
As you said, "RPGs aren't about realism", I don't think most developers particularly want to recreate a likeness of Western Medieval Europe in their games. If they wanted to, there would be templar knights and crusades and there wouldn't be magic and dragons and shit. One of the reasons castle walls were so thick for instance is because they should ideally hold against being bombarded by trebuchets and/or cannons (and they were usually built on hills/near cliffs/water to be harder to reach), have you seen these types of weapons used in the likes of Skyrim?

Personally, the more abstract and "off" our reality a setting is, the more I usually enjoy exploring it and its concepts (e.g. Planescape), see also: http://poisonedsponge.wordpress.com/2011/02/22/impossible-architecture/ or http://nnm.ru/blogs/flimmern/daniel_dociu/
castlevania-concept-art.jpg

castlevania-ia.jpg

guild-wars-2-ia.jpg

To boil it down, the article says that designers are ultimately only limited by their imagination in the kind of world they can depict or the kind of games they can make and they are often "bogged down" in those endeavours by trying to make everything look "realistic", while exploring those "unrealistic" concepts that might not even be bogged down by the rules of physics, much anything else might end up being a lot more rewarding in the end.


Also this:
This whole realism discussion is all over the place. THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A FANTASY WORLD AND THE REAL WORLD. I get it that most western RPG's take their influences from the western medieval era in many things but I dont think the goal was ever to make a game that was realistic and historically accurate to the real world. Daniel made a comment sounding like he knows better how to make castles than an American developer because he lives close to them which is silly, its not like they cant be researched and studied by anyone in the world and made accurate in a game, I just dont think most RPG developers are trying to do that.
"Realism" shouldn't be an end in itself.

yes you have to do it with your controller,
:what:
Dumbed down/popamole console RPG detected.

-My character still has lots of stats that affect the combat (strenght, agility, stamina, perks....)

Okay, but what input do the plyer have on these stats? There are stats in every videogame. In mafia, I'm sure that some cars had better speed and some had better stability. That's not what makes an RPG an RPG! What does the player can do to increase his stats? How different two characters can be? If the game is skill based, a player with good strafing/aiming skills will be able to play as an archer while if the game is a real RPG, only a character with good archery stats/skills/competences/equipement will be able to play this kind of role.
I think your problem is, you don't recognize that a "fighting system" or similar doesn't have to be entirely abstract and detached from player skill to make it an "RPG". I loved the way (again) for instance Gothic handled this or to some respect Dark Souls. The player character at lower levels of swordfighting only had a few certain moves that he could make with his sword. Just basic attacks from left/right etc. that every idiot would be able to make if you put a sword in his hand, and through character training the player got increasingly more possibilities and unlocked moves, like riposte/counter/power attack and several other forms of attacks as your character improves in learning swordfighting. All the while stats like strength or dexterity also improve damage output and the likes. You don't have to look at a game "from above" like chess from the outer most level of abstraction to consider it an RPG, but can integrate those mechanics of character improvement in different ways into the gameplay. And chances are that the player won't learn sword-fighting from being able to memorize that double-click is a "heavy attack" while a simple click is a "light attack". There were also abilities like "Acrobatics" that would improve/supercharge your characters movements and opened more possibilities in combat by being able to move faster and unlock even more moves and there can also be penalties for using weapons or "sizes" of weapons when your character hasn't learned how to use them yet (see Dark Souls). At the end of the day, computer games aren't tabletop RPGs and even in ye' olde' party-based RPGs there's quite different (tactical) considerations to make by controlling all the characters yourself and there being no DM, than you would in a tabletop game.

Daniel.Vavra Are you developing your RPG for next-gen or this-gen consoles? (If you are at liberty to disclose this.) Sorry if it's been asked before.
From what we've seen of the game so far, it would be pretty safe to say "Next Gen".

Yup, but it was still developed with a console release in mind, thus we have a crappy gaypaddy interface.
There's many more (possibly less obvious) design choices that can be relegated to designing primary for consoles in Witcher 2, e.g. the use of DirectX9 as a primary renderer, no Open-world, interface and controls optimized for controller and not M+K etc.

Regarding the article:
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Just a little less hair and on that pic he looks like a prototypical german skinhead, complete in a set with attack dog :P
 

Daniel.Vavra

Warhorse Studios
Developer
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Messages
51
Location
Prague, Czech Republic
edvk: I know where I am and what to expect :) I am ok. Hell I even kinda like entertaining flame :)
There are definitely some interesting opinions and arguments, thats why I am here after all. I would just prefer little less whining about not important bullshit from people who automatically take the other side as retarded. I am not 15. I played all those old games. I grew on them. My first computer was Sinclair (Enigma Force, Hobbit, Bloodwych), then C64 (Bards Tale, Times of Lore anyone?), and Amiga (Ishar, EoB, Dungeon Master...). Then PC (Ultima and all the other games). There are lots of them that I didnt like of course. The guy who started the company with me has written and published Czech version of D&D pen and paper RPGs, so yeah, we should know what RPG is and if someone thinks that only game I know is GTA, its insulting and stupid. On the other hand, I dont care in which category our game falls. I dont care if it will be called action RPG, adventure or whatever. I know what I want to do. Its similiar to some old games in some parts and its very different than anything else in others. Thats progress. People should learn to live with that. Especially those people, who judge games by platform, or the controller. That is utter bullshit and I am sorry for them.
 

Cosmo

Arcane
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Messages
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Project: Eternity
Daniel.Vavra

Various big RPG names have been thrown around in this thread, but personally i'd be very interested in hearing your opinion on Mount & Blade and its combat and sandbox mechanisms...
So, what do you think of the game and the different open world model it represents (even if it's not fully an RPG) ?
 

Darth Roxor

Rattus Iratus
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Just a little less hair and on that pic he looks like a prototypical german skinhead, complete in a set with attack dog

Dunno, he kinda looks like a murder hobo. Could take part in John Carpenter's Prince of Darkness.

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"Better watch yerself 'round 'ier, sonny"
 

Dexter

Arcane
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Messages
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Thats progress. People should learn to live with that. Especially those people, who judge games by platform, or the controller. That is utter bullshit and I am sorry for them.
I wouldn't know anything about this game, other than what I've seen in this: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/12/10/warhorses-fantasy-rpg-has-millions-of-graphics/

But a lot of what is happening in the AAA game industry is certainly not "progress", but rather "regress". That's one of the main reasons people are putting that much money into KickStarter at the moment, since they're sick of clones of popular games and constant remakes/reboots, which seems to be about 80-90% of what the "gaming industry" (other than Indies) produce nowadays.
Innovative/experimental stuff (again aside from some of the Indies, which are really low budget and it shows) in todays market barely exist. Where's the likes of Dungeon Keeper, Startopia, where is a new Black & White or Theme Hospital/Park, a new Worms or Lemmings, Creatures, Sacrifice, Syndicate, Little Big Adventure, Freespace and so on? I'd even take another "The Movies", even if it failed it was at least a fresh interesting new idea.

This all comes together with the rise of console gaming and the lessened hardware/control interface and design possibilites because of them, an opinion resident half-deity Chris Avellone also expressed lately:
And it'll be PC only, because Avellone is "tired of designing content and interactions that caters to consoles and console controllers."
"Those limitations affect RPG mechanics and content more than players may realize (especially for players who've never played a PC RPG and realize what's been lost over the years), and often doesn't add to the RPG experience," he told me.
Mark: Besides the revival of “dead genres” do you think we will see a difference in games made by developers who utilize crowdsourcing like Kickstarter in contrast to developers that work with publishers?
Chris: Yes, on a high level, they’ll make more interesting designs and on a low level, they’ll be more than happy to make use of the keyboard for inputs rather than worrying about mapping it to a controller. This sounds like a minor thing, but it’s not. I can’t tell you how happy I was to be driving home from inXile one evening trying to figure out how we’d pull off a function using the controller, and it occurred to me THAT IT’S NOT OUR PROBLEM ANY MORE, and the “issue” was solved. THANK GOD.

If you want to make a Skyrim clone and base it on the "console audience" because (presumably) it would sell better, that is perfectly fine, but don't try to laud it as this sort of progressive new gameplay idea everyone was waiting for. :roll:

Bro, he said open world, not an open courtyard, and with later 2/3 of them being a boring slasher.
I'd rather a smaller, focused "Open Courtyard" if you want to call it such full of wonder and unique hand-crafted experiences and encounters than your typical shit/boring/bland "Open World" Bethesda hiking-simulators full of braindead NPCs, MMO-type quests and near to nothing of worth. Bethesda isn't successful because they make good games, but because they're really good at marketing and have near to no competitors.
 

Ogg

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Well instead of participating in the arson, you'd probably not mind answering some of the questions then.
That would mean talking about the game. But obviously, he hasn't got much to say.

And? That's tactical approach as well... I mean I would love to if they introduced backstab and attack from the side options. So let's relegate stats there, where they are needed shall we?
Okay, I'm not against streamlining when it allows more meaningful options in the end. To this day, RT RPG always seemed less tactical than turn/phase based ones to me. But if shifting RPG mechanics from classical dice throwing and figurines on a map to a more instinctive interface is possible, I'm okay with that. As long as it still offers enough options.

That's an idea. Not sure what it would end up like. But that's something I would consider, yes. At least that's a gameplay element we can talk about and it's not "we couldn't do it in the past cause computer weren't powerful enough" like the Czech guy wrote.

Well partially they couldn't. There really were technical limitations against that. I mean, let's imagine speed is associated with "acrobatics" skill which lets you dodge enemy attacks better and gain speed momentum faster in short distances. Additionally this skill basically boosts responsiveness of controls, prevents staggering in combat and unlocks a few deadly attacks player can use, but only if your character wears light or no armour. It's consequential, it's meaningful, it clearly is a part of character progression.

That was not feasible in the past.
My point is that older RPGs didn't care about those kind of mechanics. Game devs enjoyed the way PnP RPG and wanted to emulate this experience.

So there you have it - your beloved stats put into good use in the place they should have been from the start.
Once again, every video game has stats. The only difference is in the way the player can impact on those and in the relative importance they have on the gameplay.

That's not a reason not to try something in another direction. I mean humans derive from apes, but that's not a good enough reason to live in a jungle, right? I know this is an extreme and unfair comparison, because TB RPGs can be fun and living in a jungle not so much (unless that's your thing). Btw, if you haven't played it yet, you *must* get King Arthur: The Role-playing Wargame. I am playing it now, and I have to say I am enjoying it immensely. There stats and abilities are justified to be in indirect control of the player, because you command armies and heroes as opposed to a single entity, where to much reliance of stats would be just artificial.

Evolution in gaming is possible and it's overall a good thing. But as far as RPG are concerned, what we've learned to be wary of is that new approaches and innovations are just another word for dumbing down.

Getting rid of stats, or relegating them to another facet of gameplay may provide such balance.

You'll still need to balance your game, wherever you put your stats. I don't understand your point here. Could you develop?

Well, he didn't say it is a novelty. This is just his approach. A risy one, but a good one as well.
I don't think it's either a novelty or a risky approach. It's been done thousands of times. That's what you see in every action game.

Methinks, the dispute we are having here really comes down to form vs. function.

Your position is: The game in question is not an RPG because it doesn't have the same form that RPGs historically were known to take.

My position: The game in question would be an RPG (it's not finished yet) IFF the mechanics the devs implement covered all the *functions* that traditional forms and structures, such as stats are ment to perform.

My position iwas more of an interrogation at first. I wanted to know what kind of variability was possible in this game. But I still haven't got a hint about that. And I'm very sceptic now.
 

evdk

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Bro, he said open world, not an open courtyard, and with later 2/3 of them being a boring slasher.
PB tried that with G3 - I'd take lovingly crafted "open courtyard" full of content over procedurally generated huge emptiness any day of the week.
 

Smejki

Larian Studios, ex-Warhorse
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Bro, he said open world, not an open courtyard, and with later 2/3 of them being a boring slasher.
I'd rather a smaller, focused "Open Courtyard" if you want to call it such full of wonder and unique hand-crafted experiences and encounters than your typical shit/boring/bland "Open World" Bethesda hiking-simulators full of braindead NPCs, MMO-type quests and near to nothing of worth. Bethesda isn't successful because they make good games, but because they're really good at marketing and have near to no competitors.
That's where New Vegas comes in as good argument. It is big, it is open-world, very close to Bethesda. Yet it is not as shallow as TES by size of huge mine truck. And Dan loves New Vegas. Which doesn't mean Warhorse RPG will be similar to New Vegas. Good thing is they develop their RPG with New Vegas as a great game in mind and with TES as a quite-a-shit compared to what it could be in mind.

I can only totally agree with your last sentence.
 

Israfael

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Well, as they say: In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king. For me, Skyrim (or the Elder Scrolls series as a whole) is the one-eyed man. So far, it is the only western open world RPG worth mentioning.
I'd never believe this quip was not slipped intentionally to generate moar troll food. Anyways, I'd say 'dex is the worst place to pitch for the next 'killer' single player MMO/hiking sim your 'one-eyed king' is.
 

evdk

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Grognards are out in full force itt I see.

Dan, I hope you've watched/read Josh Sawyer's GDC presentation about the evolution of RPG mechanics, it could maybe help with avoiding common pitfalls with what you're trying to do. http://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/126595/GDC_Europe_Obsidians_Five_Hard_Lessons_Of_RPG_Design.php
I think we should wait with listening to Josh's advice until he makes at least one game implementing his designer vision without interference, don't you think?
 

Spectacle

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I love open world games, so I'm happy to see another one in development, especially if it will be more like medieval Europe and less like Disney World.
I would have liked it even better if the developer wasn't using arguments against stat-heavy stystems that have already been refuted long ago here, though.

It's better to be honest and say that you're making an action-rpg because you want an action game, not that action-rpgs are an evolutionary improvement over the stat heavy classic RPG systems, because they aren't.
 

Daniel.Vavra

Warhorse Studios
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Dexter: I totally disagree with Avellone (and he is one of my favorite designers of all time) opinion on controllers and I think that its totall BS. Only major thing that is more complicated with joypad is typing and in most games its only used to write your name at the beginning. In poorly designed inventories, mouse might be easier, but for example inventory I designed for our game could be fully controlled by joypad, you could have hundreds of items, sort them by different attributes etc and there is no problem. In a party RPG, it could be a challenge to come up with a good mechanism to switch characters and contrl them, but its possible. I was designing a XBLA strategy game with many units and came up with very quick and intuitive way how to control them. Its also worth considering, that new consoles will probably come up with new control mechanisms - WiiU would be great for strategy and RPG games thanks to its tablet, PS4 may have touchpad etc. Blaming controllers as a source of bad design is simply just an excuse. Period.
 

Roguey

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I think we should wait with listening to Josh's advice until he makes at least one game implementing his designer vision without interference, don't you think?
Everything he applied to New Vegas worked. :cool:
 

evdk

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Dexter: I totally disagree with Avellone (and he is one of my favorite designers of all time) opinion on controllers and I think that its totall BS. Only major thing that is more complicated with joypad is typing and in most games its only used to write your name at the beginning. In poorly designed inventories, mouse might be easier, but for example inventory I designed for our game could be fully controlled by joypad, you could have hundreds of items, sort them by different attributes etc and there is no problem. In a party RPG, it could be a challenge to come up with a good mechanism to switch characters and contrl them, but its possible. I was designing a XBLA strategy game with many units and came up with very quick and intuitive way how to control them. Its also worth considering, that new consoles will probably come up with new control mechanisms - WiiU would be great for strategy and RPG games thanks to its tablet, PS4 may have touchpad etc. Blaming controllers as a source of bad design is simply just an excuse. Period.
Yet mysteriously all these games that would utilize gamepad control in a way not hampering the gameplay on PC have so far failed to materialize. You do not have a high opinion of your colleagues in the business, do you?
 

Israfael

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Only major thing that is more complicated with joypad is typing and in most games its only used to write your name at the beginning.
ye, sure thing.. do a World of Warcraft LP with joystick, preferably in any of raids.. i'd buy some popcorn to see dat.. Why do you even bring out the inventories, if its more about actual gameplay, than fiddling around in the bags.. (I understand though, that this is a traditional excuse to 'streamline' everything to the ground)
 

Dexter

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Dexter: I totally disagree with Avellone (and he is one of my favorite designers of all time) opinion on controllers and I think that its totall BS. Only major thing that is more complicated with joypad is typing and in most games its only used to write your name at the beginning. In poorly designed inventories, mouse might be easier, but for example inventory I designed for our game could be fully controlled by joypad, you could have hundreds of items, sort them by different attributes etc and there is no problem. In a party RPG, it could be a challenge to come up with a good mechanism to switch characters and contrl them, but its possible. I was designing a XBLA strategy game with many units and came up with very quick and intuitive way how to control them. Its also worth considering, that new consoles will probably come up with new control mechanisms - WiiU would be great for strategy and RPG games thanks to its tablet, PS4 may have touchpad etc. Blaming controllers as a source of bad design is simply just an excuse. Period.


Regarding the "judge games by platform" comment, your own (graphics director?) commented about the importance of high-resolution textures, using DirectX 11 hardware for features like Tessellation to make stuff look more real, importance of vegetation (and animation thereof) and the impact on performance, that would be worth it. He should presumably also know about the painfully obvious restrictions of current console hardware on Open World games with high poly models and high details on 512MB of RAM, Mafia 2 while trying to be "Open World" had a shitload of loading screens, and that's only from the hardware side of it :P

Show me well done strategy games or party-based RPGs on consoles (aside of maybe JRPGs with a "Battle Mode").
There was like Halo Wars, which was horribly implemented, near uncontrollable and also failed on the market:


And when BioWare tried to make a "party-based RPG" fit on consoles they did Dragon Age: Origins (and then Dragon Age 2, a game a large amount of people would rather forget exists at all), where half of its functions were missing, certain parts/puzzles of the game that required characters to stand on certain spots removed, friendly fire wasn't activated till the "Very Hard" modes and there wasn't a "tactical view" at all, just characters following the currently selected character and doing their AI thing.

Or for that matter, complex games (with inventory, skills/stats etc.) with a good interface that actually works well at what it was supposed to do and isn't bogged down by gamepad mechanics and shitty certification-issues like it having to be within the "TV safe" area: http://the-witness.net/news/2012/07/thoughts-on-consoles-and-certification-processes/ or by certain other considerations: http://gamedesignreviews.com/reviews/mass-effect-interface-fail/
As someone said above, it's also (one of) the main reasons MMORPGs don't exist on consoles other than a few set examples like "DC Universe Online" that were specifically made with consoles in mind and have like only 6 abilities and not much tactical depth/play more like brawlers.
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_youDodHPNWo/TIXJ0wW2MAI/AAAAAAAAAUM/P-tsf6OjBFc/s1600/41312_orig.jpg
 

Hobz

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Only major thing that is more complicated with joypad is typing
And aiming obviously, (and selecting and giving orders to multiple units but that's not really a concern for your future game) . I guess it depends on the gameplay. I wouldn't play morrowind with a pad but had no problem playing Dark Souls with it.
 

evdk

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Only major thing that is more complicated with joypad is typing
And aiming obviously, (and selecting and giving orders to multiple units but that's not really a concern for your future game) . I guess it depends on the gameplay. I wouldn't play morrowind with a pad but had no problem playing Dark Souls with it.
Stop putting words in my mouth :x
 

Hobz

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Divinity: Original Sin Torment: Tides of Numenera Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2
Only major thing that is more complicated with joypad is typing
And aiming obviously, (and selecting and giving orders to multiple units but that's not really a concern for your future game) . I guess it depends on the gameplay. I wouldn't play morrowind with a pad but had no problem playing Dark Souls with it.
Stop putting words into my mouth :x
fixed, sorry about that.
 

Daniel.Vavra

Warhorse Studios
Developer
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Hobz: I dont think that aiming with a joypad is an issue. Its much easier to aim with a joypad than to aim with a real weapon. So the fact, that aiming is harder with joypad more than with mouse is a plus for me :) On the other hand, even aiming could be made much easier when you tweak it well and I dont mean autoaiming. There are several games which do it well.
And yes, playing WoW or similiar game with a joypad is insane, even classic party dungeon like Grimrock would be a challenge, but on the other hand, you dont have to use 30 years old Dungeon Master control scheme when designing similar game in 2013. I would bet that its possible to came up with something that would let me do the same stuff as on pc, onluy differently. But not to be misinterpreted, I am primarily speaking about single player open world games. Not MMO, not party RPG. Avellone was probably speaking about Wasteland 2.
 

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