Interview RPG Codex Interview: Dan Vávra (Warhorse Studios)

[MetalCraze]

In my opinion, RPG is a game, where PLAYER takes ROLE of some CHARACTER and becomes him.

I WANT TO BE A DRAGON

ROLE PLAYING GAME. The difference between any other game and RPG is, that the "simulation" of the character behaviour and his progress and development is much deeper. I can get better, stronger, smarter, sick, married etc. and my actions affect the world as well. Some things must be represented by numbers, because there is no other way how to tell the player how good he is at something, because he cant feel his body (strenght), some other values could be represented visually and realtime, because graphics made a huge leap forward since 70s when it all started, but in the background, its still numbers and stats, player just doesnt need to see it, because he sees the real thing.

I dunno bro. All those choices in how I develop character in The Best RPG of All Time and yet in the end my character is still a dude with a gun shooting things and playing silly minigames. No matter how you develop the character the game still plays like a shitty shooter with exactly the same actions done by the player all the time. And yet that crappy old Fallout 1 where I did need to see the numbers offered me much more on each walkthrough.

By your logic any game is RPG. When I'm shouting stupid aspie shit like "contact two four zero" to my other bros in the other czech game that is actually good and running around with binoculars being a spotter - I'm playing a 100% RPG.

 

[mindx2]

Of course you won't be proven wrong. The man says he wants to make a Skyrim killer, FFS. Take it for what it is.

Which is now why this thread holds no interest to me anymore... back to talking about W2, PE, Shadowrun as well as the Golden' Oldies...

 

[Corporate_Jew_Master]

Of course you won't be proven wrong. The man says he wants to make a Skyrim killer, FFS. Take it for what it is.

Which is now why this thread holds no interest to me anymore... back to talking about W2, PE, Shadowrun as well as the Golden' Oldies...

Project Eternity will turn out to be shit and you know it.

The hand of Sawyer will come down upon it like a hammer and smash it so hard it will look like the aftermath of a stalinist purge. And no amount of obsidiot tears and defence mechanisms will be enough to conceal the atrocity.

 

[Menckenstein]

Hey Dan I'm disappointed that this is the direction you've decided to take your project in but I look forward to pirating your game.

 

[LundB]

I'm drunk so I'm going to just go to sleep and see if this interview and some of the posts itt make more sense in the morning.

 

[Roguey]

I dunno bro. All those choices in how I develop character in The Best RPG of All Time and yet in the end my character is still a dude with a gun shooting things and playing silly minigames. No matter how you develop the character the game still plays like a shitty shooter with exactly the same actions done by the player all the time. And yet that crappy old Fallout 1 where I did need to see the numbers offered me much more on each walkthrough.

In Fallout, if you're not playing a character who's good at shooting things or hitting things you're playing a boring game. What else is there to do? Click on lines of dialogue? Click on the sneak button and let the RNG do its thing? Click on objects that require a skill to be used and that's it? Dullsville.

In Fallout you're given the choice of playing a good character or a gimped character.

 

[tuluse]

Sneaking up to people and planting explosives on them obviously.

 

[Menckenstein]

I dunno bro. All those choices in how I develop character in The Best RPG of All Time and yet in the end my character is still a dude with a gun shooting things and playing silly minigames. No matter how you develop the character the game still plays like a shitty shooter with exactly the same actions done by the player all the time. And yet that crappy old Fallout 1 where I did need to see the numbers offered me much more on each walkthrough.

In Fallout, if you're not playing a character who's good at shooting things or hitting things you're playing a boring game. What else is there to do? Click on lines of dialogue? Click on the sneak button and let the RNG do its thing? Click on objects that require a skill to be used and that's it? Dullsville.

In Fallout you're given the choice of playing a good character or a gimped character.

For a guy pretending to be a girl you've sure got a shallow imagination.

 

[MetalCraze]

In Fallout, if you're not playing a character who's good at shooting things or hitting things you're playing a boring game. What else is there to do? Click on lines of dialogue? Click on the sneak button and let the RNG do its thing? Click on objects that require a skill to be used and that's it? Dullsville.

You can also choose the blonde haircut so you won't lose the character among the rest of brown-colour gamma.

 

[Roguey]

Sneaking up to people and planting explosives on them obviously.

You can also do that in Fallout 3 and New Vegas, games he hates because "No matter how you develop the character the game still plays like a shitty shooter with exactly the same actions done by the player all the time."

 

[villain of the story]

Interested dropped.

Today, computers are powerful enough for accurate real-time visuals with all the simulation calculated in the background, and the controls are so sophisticated that it's possible to make very accurate skill-based simulation of combat or movement. So the RPG is no more about the dices and stats—it could be completely skill-based and it will finally resemble the real world as we all desired back in the days of pen and paper. Of course, a lot of people who are used to old rules or don’t like skill-based video games will not like it, but that's not important. Of course, you can still have character progression, and it's necessary to display it through stats, because you can't feel that your videogame character is hungry or feels pain and how much. Stats are also needed for things like the simulation of intelligence, persuasion or speech, because voice and face recognition is not up there for AI to recognize if you are lying or how you grimace as your speak in-game. So we have to simulate that through some stats and virtual dice throws. But one day, the ideal RPG should be like the famous Star Trek Holodeck. For me it's about that. Simply put, RPG is about role-playing in a complex world with lot of possibilities and about the development of my character. The more real it is, the better.

Oh FFS, the same old retarded technological limitations argument. ET TV VAVRA? Enough with this bullshit.

Entire point of ROLE-playing has gone over your head. It's not about whether voice and face recognition is not up there for AI to recognize if you are lying or how you grimace as your speak in-game because if it were and if AI could recognise and simulate lying and all spectrum of human mimics and behaviour, it would no longer be a ROLE-PLAYING game. It would be a COGNITIVE-SIMULATOR. Still exciting and fun, I am sure but where outcome cannot be ruled by stats, there can be no role-playing. Also how could you possibly have "character development" if the technology were up to it so there would be no need for any player character abstraction in the first place? I tell you how: YOU WOULD NOT. That would not be a ROLE PLAYING game.

Makes me suddenly lose interest in whatever this piece of shit might end up becoming. Make no mistake, I would enjoy a medieval simulator but let's not call that an RPG, shall we? FFS.

The best game in this area is probably Fallout: New Vegas. They have a branch for almost every decision you would do. But by doing this, you are not writing a story. You are writing multiple stories. That might be great if you don't want to tell one particular story. So I like the approach of The Witcher—there are options, but not an unlimited amount, and what it lacks in the quantity of the options, it gains in quality (a very good story).

This is plain retarded. "Multiple stories" combine to form a narrative. You don't need every little detail written down and spoon-fed to have great "story-telling" unless your definition of story-"telling" is a very unnecessarily literal one, which serves absolutely no purpose as far as story, narrative and writing quality is concerned.

I love their ambitions. Perhaps they will make a good medieval analogue of Far Cry 3. But will it be a Role-Playing game? Perhaps we should ask if they consider Mafia series as RPGs.

R00FLES!

 

[tuluse]

Oh, well you're the one arguing with Skyway, so good luck with that.

 

[villain of the story]

In Fallout all RPGs, if you're not playing a character who's good at shooting things or hitting things you're playing a boring game. What else is there to do? Click on lines of dialogue? Click on the sneak button and let the RNG do its thing? Click on objects that require a skill to be used and that's it? Dullsville.

Fixed to reflect actual intention.

And it is sad. While the dialogue systems are in need of improvements to make them more involving and "gamey" (without becoming mini games), personally I don't find anything boring about taking the non-combat route whenever possible. Roguey, you should probably stop playing RPGs.

 

[Corporate_Jew_Master]

I dunno bro. All those choices in how I develop character in The Best RPG of All Time and yet in the end my character is still a dude with a gun shooting things and playing silly minigames. No matter how you develop the character the game still plays like a shitty shooter with exactly the same actions done by the player all the time. And yet that crappy old Fallout 1 where I did need to see the numbers offered me much more on each walkthrough.

In Fallout, if you're not playing a character who's good at shooting things or hitting things you're playing a boring game. What else is there to do? Click on lines of dialogue? Click on the sneak button and let the RNG do its thing? Click on objects that require a skill to be used and that's it? Dullsville.

Please be a troll.

 

[pistletoe]

'Murica is butthurt.

It generally doesn't take much.

 

[Irxy]

Playing as a loli however is not one of them.
Sales wise, I saw a lot of people were interested in DD because the character creation system was expansive enough to do so.

Well, a lot of people are interested in gay romances according to bioware, but some things I'd like not to have in a game, otherwise the community around it will be a total shit, like we have on bio and bethesda forums, which is depressing.

 

[Excommunicator]

I can respect someone who comes to (relatively) openly discuss things on the Codex and defend their opinion, especially when it's not a popular one here.

The thing you need to understand though in entering this kind of place is to drop all pretenses of knowing better about what an RPG is or what a game should be or have. The posters on the Codex may or may not know better (some do, some don't), but if you challenge them on their home turf with an idea that most have identified as the biggest or second biggest (after the ME-esque approach) enemy to RPGs today then it's just going to turn you into a villain and hated character unnecessarily. Most people on the Codex would love a decent open world medieval simulator with some stats ala Mount&Blade with a bit of added narrative, but you aren't going to get even the slightest bit of recognition for what you achieve if you start attaching it a moral or transcendent value (and around here, "RPG" is the ultimate moral value). It will simply never do you any good in a place like this putting forth your definition of an RPG or trying to argue it. Stick to the facts. Tell them the features you will have and the features you won't. Try to argue those points only by the ranking of those features compared to other features within your aims and budget. Anything else will be the short road to self destruction around here.

I don't like what you say about controllers either. I personally don't use controllers at all, and you shouldn't be working on a single control scheme that works for two separate contexts. That's a bad way to go. You need to aim for two completely independent control schemes: controller and KB&M. Adjusting one for the other will leave you with one potentially good scheme and one poor imitation whichever way you do it. They're too different. Give the players the respect of knowing you didn't compromise one group for the other. You build success first with the hardcore players, and they will very much appreciate this.

Also, don't aim for a Skyrim killer or even competitor. Aim simply for an alternative. A different approach. Aiming to beat a particular game will not only limit yourself but you'll forget what really matters to you. That's where the corpses of all the developers of yesteryear lie.

 

[deuxhero]

Playing as a loli however is not one of them.
Sales wise, I saw a lot of people were interested in DD because the character creation system was expansive enough to do so.

Well, a lot of people are interested in gay romances according to bioware, but some things I'd like not to have in a game, otherwise the community around it will be a total shit, like we have on bio and bethesda forums, which is depressing.

Bioware does them pretty badly though, if at all (player sexuals). Games with actual lesbian characters have pretty nice fanbases.

Though in seriousness, ability to play as a loli is just a result of really good character creation that is used for every NPC in the game and mostly a smartass way of asking how the character creation options are.

 

[Metro]

But why talk about it with the codex, who aren't really as interested in the genre?

Speak for yourself.

I am definitely interested... at 75% off... a $40 list price.

 

[Mrowak]

Interested dropped.

Entire point of ROLE-playing has gone over your head. It's not about whether voice and face recognition is not up there for AI to recognize if you are lying or how you grimace as your speak in-game because if it were and if AI could recognise and simulate lying and all spectrum of human mimics and behaviour, it would no longer be a ROLE-PLAYING game.

So you are basically saying that if a game like existed - requiring you to change the tone of voice, manners, mimics and behaviour - it would not be a role playing game, because role playing in not about pretending you are someone else.

I know what you are trying to say - I know Codex's schtick - but goddamn *semantics*, bro.

It would be a COGNITIVE-SIMULATOR. Still exciting and fun, I am sure but where outcome cannot be ruled by stats, there can be no role-playing.

Elaborate, please. How outcome ruled by stats is role-playing, exactly? Because to me if the result is determined *chiefly* by stats, it's not a role playing GAME. And while my dictionary returns to me:

to role play - to assume or act out a particular role

...it says nothing about rolling the dice and tinkering with the numbers. So, in the light of the entire semantic discussion you initiated I still fail to see the reason why stats should be there in the first place, if they are not even a part of the definition. Could it be the Codex is making up bullshit explanation to support its flawed logic?

One more thing:

Also how could you possibly have "character development" if the technology were up to it so there would be no need for any player character abstraction in the first place? I tell you how: YOU WOULD NOT. That would not be a ROLE PLAYING game.

Why? No one said how the character should be abstracted in RPGs. Because "abstraction" means also:

abstraction - a : disassociation from any specific instance

... it could be argued that any act of pretending to be someone else provides such abstraction (I am not the character I am playing).

This disassociation does not mean the player should not get involved or not identify with the character he is playing - character abstraction is not by definition "desirable", nor it is something we should fight against. It is just a statement of the fact: "you are not the character you are pretending to be", which applies to real-world actors, conmen and whathaveyou. And I think this is how most people, including Daniel.Vavra interpret this keyword.

Therein lies the key difference in the approach between Codex and the rest of the world, because Codex associaties the meaning with the "description" of the character in the form of numbers and spreadsheets which "set the character apart from me". This follows another meaning of the word "abstract".

abstract - expressing a quality apart from an object

This is not something most people would use in the context of role-playing. In fact sematically these two concepts are unrelated. Additionally, even if we accept this "abstraction" as a requirement there's still *nothing* in "role-playing" that proclaims that the old way is the only way or that stats are a must.

TL;DR version: FarCry 3 is a full-fledged RPG.

Jokes aside, I am not disagreeing with the principle - that stat based role-playing games can be fun, and few stat-less games achieve similar heights as their older counterparts. But those arguments... Now I wonder why devs stay away from this place. It surely cannot be that when faced with broken logic and misinformation of this kind, they confirm they are right about their priorities and decide not to catter for a bunch of sniveling whiny assholes who cannot into elementary argumentation.

The best game in this area is probably Fallout: New Vegas. They have a branch for almost every decision you would do. But by doing this, you are not writing a story. You are writing multiple stories. That might be great if you don't want to tell one particular story. So I like the approach of The Witcher—there are options, but not an unlimited amount, and what it lacks in the quantity of the options, it gains in quality (a very good story).

This is plain retarded. "Multiple stories" combine to form a narrative. You don't need every little detail written down and spoon-fed to have great "story-telling" unless your definition of story-"telling" is a very unnecessarily literal one, which serves absolutely no purpose as far as story, narrative and writing quality is concerned.

Now this is something I can agree with.

 

[villain of the story]

I'm sorry, you are far too gone to take seriously. You are arguing nonsense and outside the established terminology of RPGs. So I'll just ignore you for now.



Naah, kidding.

 

[Metro]

Enough with this nonsensical discussion of identifying with a player character. That's for E-LARP shit like Oblivion. I don't play RPGs to pretend I'm someone else. I play them because I enjoy character progression, figuring out multiple solutions to quests/combat, open world exploration, and challenging combat that plays out differently depending on which type of character build I'm using. I don't give a fuck about IM-HER-SHUN!

 

[Smejki]

Also, don't aim for a Skyrim killer or even competitor. Aim simply for an alternative. A different approach. Aiming to beat a particular game will not only limit yourself but you'll forget what really matters to you. That's where the corpses of all the developers of yesteryear lie.

I am pretty sure, Skyrim will be mentioned on pitches. Beside that they have clear vision and doing their own game which in many ways might resemble Skyrim but NOT on purpose.

 

[Roguey]

I dunno bro. All those choices in how I develop character in The Best RPG of All Time and yet in the end my character is still a dude with a gun shooting things and playing silly minigames. No matter how you develop the character the game still plays like a shitty shooter with exactly the same actions done by the player all the time. And yet that crappy old Fallout 1 where I did need to see the numbers offered me much more on each walkthrough.

In Fallout, if you're not playing a character who's good at shooting things or hitting things you're playing a boring game. What else is there to do? Click on lines of dialogue? Click on the sneak button and let the RNG do its thing? Click on objects that require a skill to be used and that's it? Dullsville.

Please be a troll.

What I said is accurate.
Small guns, big guns, energy weapons, unarmed, melee throwing - skills that give you an accuracy boost so you can kill things better
first aid, doctor - use skill on object (usually yourself) to gain health (and fix a crippled limb in doctor's case)
sneak - RNG invisibility
lockpick, steal - use skill on object to get stuff (along with an annoying RNG and lack of feedback attached to steal)
traps, science repair, - use skill on object, get xp. There are also a couple of science dialogue lines to click on.
Speech - More lines of dialogue to click on
Barter - Makes things cost less money
Gambling - use skill on object to possibly get more money
Outdoorsman - Reduces chances of random encounters

See, the majority of actual gameplay is attached to killing things. There's not much thought or skill involved in using skill x on object y.

 

[Elel]

If the developer is still visiting the page, I wanted to ask: will it be a game without anything else but what actually existed, i.e. no magic, unlike other RPGs? Because complex magic system with many spells is extremely limited in pure realtime (with no pause), I guess there's going to be none?

Btw I also don't like *ultimate* realism, like some other posters. Realistic architecture is great, and I enjoy "hiking" (makes you feel like you're actually there) and stuff like that. But I hope there's going to be no ultimate society structure realism, because it used to be horrid, and when I play I want to escape issues of class and gender that still persist in RL.