Preview RPG Codex Preview: Blackguards 2

[Shannow]

Well, their aim was to make all fights unique and interesting. Seems like they fucked that up. BUT DR just played a few hours in. This is one part where I'd wait for the final release before judging.

 

[thesheeep]

I have not played Blackguards 1, but wanted to play both once part 2 is out. But this pretty much makes me want to play none of them. Playing part 1 while knowing part 2 is so much worse would just suck the joy out of it.

Blaggardz 1 is a great game, and you really shouldn't deprive yourself of playing it just because the sequel is shit.

I wish I could.
It's just how I roll. I also cannot watch or play most prequels if I know the "sequel" is shit or if the prequel plot becomes meaningless to me if too closely related to the "sequel".
Basically, if the two parts are too closely tied together, I can not enjoy the 1st if I know the 2nd to be shit.
No problem playing Fallout 1 or 2, as 3 is just not "closely tied" with those. It also helps that New Vegas serves as a "light at the end of the tunnel".

I do not claim that this behaviour of mine is very logical.

Anyway, I will wait for some more impressions of the final game.

 

[Grunker]

so... you're saying that you would have played Blaggardz 1 if they hadn't made a sequal..?

but that makes... wat?

 

[Darth Roxor]

For the record: I wouldn't mind it all that much if it really changed into some sort of a quasi-hommlike strategy game or whatever.

But the simple fact of the matter is that it didn't. The "strategy" layer is for the most part a buzzword, there is hardly any actual strategic management or whatever present.

Also, even if it did change into a strategy game, the new mechanics would still be terrible, simply because they promote Degenerate Gameplay for the lack of a better expression.

 

[Infinitron]

Health regeneration in these sorts of games is horrible.

It massively overpowers the tactic of isolating, kiting or stunning enemies so that you can regenerate health faster than you lose it and slowly chisel them down with no risk to yourself. Kinda like the Despair Thy Eyes + Rest tactic in Betrayal at Krondor.

In the first game too, things could get cheesy when you got really high astral energy regen rates, which you could use to heal somebody in each round while actually still GAINING astral points. But at least that was only in the late game.

 

[MicoSelva]

That was an interesting read. Quite informative, even if too spiced up by Roxor's irrational hatred for deterministic combat. I like some of the changes and will probably still enjoy the game if the narrative is decent enough - and it seems better than the first game's at a glance.
The 'you can only dodge and parry once per turn' approach seems borrowed from Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay P&P system, maybe? I can see what they were going for, but making each consecutive parry/dodge in a turn harder instead would have been a better approach.

The decline of quality of combat encounters is what worries me the most. I hope they improve that before release.

There is nothing fun about steamrolling every combat setpiece because you’ve hatched an infallible master plan right at the start.

This is obviously not true, unless you mean 'at the start of the whole game' (obviously not) not 'at the start of the combat encounter'. Many people enjoy devising plans and seeing them come to fruitition. There are many great games based on that (like Rainbow Six). It only gets boring if your master plan for each new combat encounter can be a copy-paste from the previous one, and it still works, not requiring to to adapt and think.

 

[Darth Roxor]

The 'you can only dodge and parry once per turn' approach seems borrowed from Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay P&P system, maybe?

You still have to roll to hit in WFRP, dodge/parry there is an active defensive manoeuvre.

 

[MicoSelva]

You still have to roll to hit in WFRP, dodge/parry there is an active defensive manoeuvre.

Well, yes. This is why it somewhat works in WFRP (even if it is not a very good rule overall), but will be easily exploitable in Blackguards 2. Daedalic try to employ a 'halfway there' approach where it would be much better to either keep to hit rolls, or morph defense into something reducing damage instead (like in HoMM). I am hoping that maybe they will come to their senses before release - we will see.

 

[Jaedar]

The thing is that RNG adds tactical value a lot of the time. It forces you to adapt your plans as you play along. Without randomness you might almost just as well have a system like gratuitous space battles where you only control initial positions and then just watch as the battle unfolds.

Yes, the ai can do things you don't predict also, but this tends not to be the case, especially after you've spent a few hours with it and have learned how it "reasons".

 

[Tramboi]

That's exactly the objection I was going to express : if you want to randomize something, seed the AI differently.

 

[Scroo]

interesting diceless stuff

I read the words but they make no sense!

 

[Maculo]

This news is really disappointing. Also, the fact that they reused the same characters and did not add anymore (excluding the main character) annoys me.

 

[Tramboi]

interesting diceless stuff

I read the words but they make no sense!

Sure, you can play snake and ladders with dragons your whole life without trying something else.

 

[Lord Azlan]

Hmmm - bad news. I don't know why a game developer does not make the sequel more complicated rather than simpler each time.

I understand the need to reach a more varied audience - but there is a danger of losing what made the game any good in the first place.

I do have a problem calling BG1 a RPG - but the best thing about it was the complexity of character development and the rule set behind the combat. That was the only thing that made it RPG ish in my opinion.

I will keep myself updated about BG2 via this excellent forum - but looks like it won't be at the top off my shopping list.

 

[vivec]

interesting diceless stuff

I read the words but they make no sense!

Chess? Backgammon? Age of Empires? starcraft?

 

[Scroo]

I read the words but they make no sense!

Chess? Backgammon? Age of Empires? starcraft?

Nice, I never heard of these rpg systems, I'll check them out thanks

 

[vivec]

Don't get me wrong. I love dice rolling and feel that Randomness adds a lot to the fun of an RPG. I was just trying to make a point that stochasticity is not essential to a good game. I can totally imagine an AoE like game with heroes having fixed damage/ attack scores (Rise of Legends), but admittedly I know not a single one.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Hmmm - bad news. I don't know why a game developer does not make the sequel more complicated rather than simpler each time.

I understand the need to reach a more varied audience - but there is a danger of losing what made the game any good in the first place.

What made the game good vs

Decisions, decisions...

 

[Infinitron]

This is a low budget slam-dunk sequel, not a high investment quasi-reimagining meant to introduce a franchise to new audiences. Dumbing down the systems makes no sense. Slam-dunk sequels are supposed to capitalize on the core audience of the first game. You're supposed to make them MORE complex.

So

I'm afraid Daedalic will find themselves disappointed.

 

[Grunker]

Yeah, pretty much. This game will never earn money off of a mainstream crowd. Alienating the core user base seems like a really stupid decision. We know from Logic Artsts that the trifecta of Codex-Watch-RPS means a ton for games like these.

 

[tuluse]

interesting diceless stuff

I read the words but they make no sense!

Chess? Backgammon? Age of Empires? starcraft?

Tell me more about this diceless backgammon.

Edit: Starcraft and AoE have random elements too (damage ranges specifically)

 

[Grunker]

interesting diceless stuff

I read the words but they make no sense!

Chess? Backgammon? Age of Empires? starcraft?

Tell me more about this diceless backgammon.

I hope he was thinking of Checkers.

 

[vivec]

interesting diceless stuff

I read the words but they make no sense!

Chess? Backgammon? Age of Empires? starcraft?

Tell me more about this diceless backgammon.

Edit: Starcraft and AoE have random elements too (damage ranges specifically)

Yeah. I meant Checkers. Somehow everyone I know calls it backgammon for no reason it seems. Also, I have no idea that AoE had any random elements. Source?

 

[Vault Dweller]

This is a low budget slam-dunk sequel, not a high investment quasi-reimagining meant to introduce a franchise to new audiences. Dumbing down the systems makes no sense. Slam-dunk sequels are supposed to capitalize on the core audience of the first game. You're supposed to make them MORE complex.

Yeah, pretty much. This game will never earn money off of a mainstream crowd. Alienating the core user base seems like a really stupid decision. We know from Logic Artsts that the trifecta of Codex-Watch-RPS means a ton for games like these.

I'll be VERY surprised if the new game doesn't double or even triple the sales of the original by the virtue of being a simpler, more 'accessible' game. Take AoD, for example. We sold 10,000 copies on Steam. Our demo was downloaded 18,000 times, conversion rate 10%. The number one complaint is the difficulty, followed by 'why can't I experience more of the game (i.e. why restrictions), followed by 'too complex'. We drop the difficulty, restrictions, and some complexity - we double the sales. Doesn't mean crossing into mainstream territory or competing with Dragon Age or Skyrim. It's about realizing that you can easily sell more by making games more accessible. So, you don't have to think too hard figuring out why BG2 was suddenly dumbed down.

My opinion is also based on conversations with other developers but I'm not at liberty to speak for them.

 

[Grunker]

That comparison is pretty bullshit. Your game was criticized for the way it implemented its difficulty even by many Codexers. Blackguards was not. As such, the criticism of difficulty traversing the two games was different.

Do you really think AoD would sell more if you removed all randomness and trimmed down the character building? The entire point is that your main audience is guys like us.

Blackguards may rake in some extra cash from random folks, but I feel pretty convinced that the core audience of blackguards is the aforementioned trifecta. And they lose those guys if they streamline too much.