Codex Preview RPG Codex Report: Expeditions: Conquistador, Logic Artists and Kickstarter

[Kz3r0]

$80k.
That's going to fund the basic living expenses of a dozen people and that office of theirs for 1-2 months with danish expenses. The starting wage for a programmer is 5-6k$/mo over here depending on whether he has a B.Sc. or a M.Sc. Their publisher likely paid 90% or more of their development costs. Just saying.

Do you get the full implications of what you wrote?

 

[Grunker]

^ They did. When I spoke with them they said that the game was funded by themselves at first, spending all their own money, then securing a small investment, then the scope was expanded a bit via Kickstarter. Check the report.

...are bizarre, considering this discussion is about how Logic Artists is using an alternate way to get onto Steam.

You're ineptitude at reading is striking. Me and Infinitron have been making the argument from the beginning that distributors and greenlight are the only ways to get onto Steam. That challenges VD's point that indie games can simply "try harder" on their own. There is nothing bizarre here.

 

[Infinitron]

Is not only correct, it should be self evident from this conversation.

It should be self-evident from this conversation that we were talking only an indie, first time developer getting onto Steam. Use common sense please.

 

[almondblight]

$80k.
That's going to fund the basic living expenses of a dozen people and that office of theirs for 1-2 months with danish expenses. The starting wage for a programmer is 5-6k$/mo over here depending on whether he has a B.Sc. or a M.Sc. Their publisher likely paid 90% or more of their development costs. Just saying.

Good point. After paying essentials like rent for the office, the Gamescom exhibit, and comfortable salaries they didn't have much left over. Hey, maybe they hired a lawyer like the Star Command guys.

 

[almondblight]

It should be self-evident from this conversation that we were talking only an indie, first time developer getting onto Steam. Use common sense please.

Which is why you were talking about Wadjet Eye games? Anyway, Greenlight is the only option available to indies except for:

- Teaming up with a publisher. Maybe bitComposer was the only one available and maybe they'd only do it under these circumstances, but I doubt it.

- Being IGF Finalists, like Kentucky Route Zero or Incredipede

- Steam just deciding that they like you, like Under the Ocean

All of which I found from about a minute of using my Google-fu, so it's very likely that there are other backdoors as well. So yeah, it's pretty much the only way to get on Steam besides all the other ways there are to get on Steam. That's some...interesting...common sense.

 

[Vault Dweller]

Is not only correct, it should be self evident from this conversation.

It should be self-evident from this conversation that we were talking only an indie, first time developer getting onto Steam. Use common sense please.

The point was that if that indie, first-time developer can get on Steam by paying a cut to some two-bit publisher, it serves as a sufficient proof that there are channels anyone can tap into.

 

[Kz3r0]

Is not only correct, it should be self evident from this conversation.

It should be self-evident from this conversation that we were talking only an indie, first time developer getting onto Steam. Use common sense please.

The point was that if that indie, first-time developer can get on Steam by paying a cut to some two-bit publisher, it serves as a sufficient proof that there are channels anyone can tap into.

Just out of curiosity, would it possible to associate with another developer studio that has Steam access?

 

[Infinitron]

Is not only correct, it should be self evident from this conversation.

It should be self-evident from this conversation that we were talking only an indie, first time developer getting onto Steam. Use common sense please.

The point was that if that indie, first-time developer can get on Steam by paying a cut to some two-bit publisher, it serves as a sufficient proof that there are channels anyone can tap into.

Just out of curiosity, would it possible to associate with another developer studio that has Steam access?

Yeah, I'm actually not sure why Dead State didn't try to piggyback on Iron Tower's Greenlight access.

Which is why you were talking about Wadjet Eye games? Anyway, Greenlight is the only option available to indies except for:

- Teaming up with a publisher. Maybe bitComposer was the only one available and maybe they'd only do it under these circumstances, but I doubt it.

- Being IGF Finalists, like Kentucky Route Zero or Incredipede

- Steam just deciding that they like you, like Under the Ocean

All of which I found from about a minute of using my Google-fu, so it's very likely that there are other backdoors as well. So yeah, it's pretty much the only way to get on Steam besides all the other ways there are to get on Steam. That's some...interesting...common sense.

Okay, then I guess there are ways onto Steam that hundreds of indies out there are too stupid to figure out. If only they were as smart as you and Vault Dweller, they could be millionaires.

Seriously man - Steam access is a big fucking deal. Do you honestly think that if there were obvious alternative ways onto Steam, that they wouldn't be widely disseminated common knowledge?

"No free lunches", have you ever heard of that expression?

That's some...interesting...loser sense who still wants to have the last word in.

Augmented.

Added to my ignore list, this time permanently.

 

[almondblight]

You're ineptitude at reading is striking. Me and Infinitron have been making the argument from the beginning that distributors and greenlight are the only ways to get onto Steam.

Hmm...

Right now it ends with Infinitron's FAQ. Burden of proof is on you to show that he is wrong.

Care to show me where the FAQ says that "you can circumvent Greenlight by signing distributor deals"?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Yeah, I'm actually not sure why Dead State didn't try to piggyback on Iron Tower's Greenlight access.

It's never been discussed (internally), plus DB is a separate company. Anyway, they seem to be moving fast on GL and I don't think they would have any problems getting on Steam.

Okay, then I guess there are ways onto Steam that hundreds of indies out there are too stupid to figure out. If only they were as smart as you and Vault Dweller, they could be millionaires.

It's not about being smart.

Look, many PR companies knock on indie studio's doors and offer them valuable services, such as help with press-releases, media contacts, and such. RPS is often mentioned since it's an influential site. Yet, it's possible for an indie developer to create their own relationship with RPS and get mentioned.

Granted, it's a small-scale example, but the analogy works. Maybe some developers can't do it. They don't know how to approach a site and what to say and how to handle it. It does make someone who can smart and super successful.

Seriously man - Steam access is a big fucking deal. Do you honestly think that if there were obvious alternative ways onto Steam, that they wouldn't be widely disseminated common knowledge?

Like what? Post a walkthrough?

First, you have to have a well polished game with good production values. Few indies do, but Expeditions is such a game. Second, it has to have good reviews. I don't think it's going to be a problem. If you got that, I'd say - based entirely on my sales experience - that there is a 90% chance that you can get on Steam without the GL process.

 

[Infinitron]

If you got that, I'd say - based entirely on my sales experience - that there is a 90% chance that you can get on Steam without the GL process.

Why thank you for your ten percent of self-doubt.

I'd like to see this question brought up in an indie developers forum of some kind so we can get more opinions. Right now it's your word vs Aterdux's.

 

[Mortmal]

Apparently if you get an indie festival prize, or at least making the final , like golden joystick and such , you can bypass greenlight too . So yes getting on steam is certainly fucking hard for first time indie , yet possible , winning an international prize is a way , its likely theres several other ways. That greenlight thing is fundamentally broken, you get plenty of people voting on some mainstream indie titles but will they buy it ? While you have very niche products with few voters , those guys will likely buy the game, but the game wont pass greenlight.

There's penlty of abberations, why is war Z on steam ? the game is indie, its a terrible, terrible game, borderline scam yet its published....

 

[Grunker]

First, you have to have a well polished game with good production values. Few indies do, but Expeditions is such a game. Second, it has to have good reviews. I don't think it's going to be a problem. If you got that, I'd say - based entirely on my sales experience - that there is a 90% chance that you can get on Steam without the GL process.

It's fascinating how you just know this without having any evidence of it at all. You even go so far as to point out an actual percentage. Fascinating. This is in the face of the Official word on this plus a developer who has spoken to Steam employees at conferences and other developers about this.

Even if we took all this at just face value without question, this still wouldn't be enough for saying to LA: "Man, you just need to work harder, fuckers!" In fact it's pretty ironic to make the suggestion that these guys are just lazy fucks considering they lived on a rock in a shitty office working constantly without any money just to kick this thing off. One would think if there were alternatives to Greenlight these guys would have tried it.

 

[Infinitron]

There's penlty of abberations, why is war Z on steam ? the game is indie, its a terrible, terrible game, borderline scam yet its published....

I think they had a publisher.

Also the same people made this: http://store.steampowered.com/app/107900/

 

[Vault Dweller]

First, you have to have a well polished game with good production values. Few indies do, but Expeditions is such a game. Second, it has to have good reviews. I don't think it's going to be a problem. If you got that, I'd say - based entirely on my sales experience - that there is a 90% chance that you can get on Steam without the GL process.

It's fascinating how you just know this without having any evidence of it at all. You even go so far as to point out an actual percentage. Fascinating. This is in the face of the Official word on this plus a developer who has spoken to Steam employees at conferences and other developers about this.

I know it because I did it for a living, then taught others how to do it for a living, then managed people doing that for a living. I know how businesses work, I know how such systems work, I know how people work.

If you want to sell marketing services to a business, you're one out of 10 people who call them a day. They will send you to their ad agency to submit your proposals, which is a dead end. So, you have to find the right people (decision makers) within the company, get them interested, get them on-board and either ok you on the spot or pass you to someone higher up.

So, when I hear that a first time indie can get on Steam without GL by paying a cut to some no-name publisher, this tells me that the above mentioned channels do exist and some small companies make a living by selling their contacts for a cut of the revenues. When I hear that Steam will take a well-reviewed game or an IGF finalist, it tells me that Steam is interested in games that have potential and would take them directly which means that there are people who make such decisions, people who have the power and authority to do that, most likely business development managers whose job is to look and approve such games.

Steam is a business, it exists to make money. Like any business, it has several models of acquiring games. GL is one. It's designed to filter out hundreds or thousands of submissions that come to them by delegating the approval to the gamers. But no business relies only on one model. If Steam sees a game they can add without any extra costs (i.e. it's pure profit), they will gladly take it. That's why a two-bit publisher has the power, that's why they reach out to the finalists, etc.

Some people in this thread are too focused on "Steam is big fucking deal, why would they talk to you?". Steam IS a big fucking deal, but it's a business and like any business it's interested in any game they can make money on by default.

So, if there are people who make such decisions, you can find them, contact them, and pitch directly. That's all I'm saying. Now, if your pitch is "I think my game deserves to be on steam", they won't even look at it. If your pitch is a a couple of good screens, review quotes, relevant sales data from gog or gg, they will look at it and most likely will take your game. Why? Because it's good business.

Even if we took all this at just face value without question, this still wouldn't be enough for saying to LA: "Man, you just need to work harder, fuckers!"

Only if you can't fucking read.

In fact it's pretty ironic to make the suggestion that these guys are just lazy fucks considering they lived on a rock in a shitty office working constantly without any money just to kick this thing off. One would think if there were alternatives to Greenlight these guys would have tried it.

Did you even read my posts? Or you read "alternative" and think of some hidden fucking form they didn't fill in?

Didn't I fucking say from the beginning that you need positive reviews?

 

[winterraptor]

Even if we took all this at just face value without question, this still wouldn't be enough for saying to LA: "Man, you just need to work harder, fuckers!" In fact it's pretty ironic to make the suggestion that these guys are just lazy fucks considering they lived on a rock in a shitty office working constantly without any money just to kick this thing off. One would think if there were alternatives to Greenlight these guys would have tried it.

I don't find it so hard to believe they were busy busting ass and making the game, and are good at making games, but no so great at sales and marketing connections. I'd say most devs are used to/inclined in general to basically hand that stuff off to someone else and assume that's precisely the only way it works.

 

[Infinitron]

Vault Dweller To be honest, I don't think LA were confident enough about their product to assume they would receive the required level of "positive reviews".

It's likely that their failure at Greenlight contributed to this inconfidence. The crowd evidently wasn't so enthusiastic about the game. What can you do?

 

[Vault Dweller]

Vault Dweller To be honest, I don't think LA were confident enough about their product to assume they would receive the required level of "positive reviews".

It's likely that their failure at Greenlight contributed to this inconfidence. The crowd evidently wasn't so enthusiastic about the game. What can you do?

Well, yes and no. First, the game did well on KS. 80k for a first time indie IS an accomplishment. Second, I think the game got good previews and impressions (but maybe I missed something), so I don't think there was anything to indicate that the game won't be well received. Sure, it's always a gamble but it certainly looked that their future was bright.

I can't say much about their GL failure as I don't recall what their page looked like and I don't know what their stats were, but quite a few games are getting GL these days and I can't think of a good reason why they couldn't do what others did.

 

[Avonaeon]

I am fully suspicious that the multiplayer was added on the request of the 'publisher'.

It wasn't.

I refuse to buy this shit about "we added multiplayer on a whim". That is just impossible. No sane person does this at the last moment.

Wasn't last moment. When we announced MP, it had been in works for months and was pretty much done (See next answer why).

It seems far more likely that they held off on revealing it and were intending it to be a nice surprise on launch, then the game got delayed and they announced it as an attempt to appease backers. Which backfired pretty badly, granted.

Precisely.

There's nothing wrong in implementing multiplayer either as long as it doesn't interfere the development of core game. Which isn't the case - STRIKE 1.

This is from our update about multiplayer:

I'll even admit that the multiplayer has in fact detracted a little bit from the singleplayer, in that Casper has had less time to polish the campaign because he had to work on the multiplayer, but now that we have a little extra time on the clock, we'll be able to catch up on that.

If you add two and two together, you will have figured out that we have now caught up to it and everything is as it should be. So, just to be clear: Because of the delay, singleplayer has no longer suffered on account of multiplayer.

The most simple explanation is often correct. The game being delayed in an effort to find the best means of distribution is a simple explanation and, indeed, the one given by the developers. They can probably only get these deals by waiting to release the game. If they get better distribution, they sell more copies, they are more succesful, we get better and more games in our niche.

You got it.

The game was ready to be released 2 months ago but got held back because of a last-minute publishing deal which required some changes, like MP. If it didn't require any changes, why the delay?

Look above for my answers on why we delayed. Look at the updates for answers on why we delayed. The distribution deal had nothing to do with adding multiplayer. Multiplayer was pretty much done by the time we entered talks with bitComposer.

I'm saying that delaying the game to get MOAR distribution and breaking the deal with the backers are as slippery as it fucking gets. They aren't poor developers. They are the guys who got 80k from KS and 3 portals. They decided to go for more and nail the big one and shafted the backers in the process.

I fail to see how we are breaking our deal with our backers. They are still getting the game, they are still getting what they paid for, it's just delayed.

When you pull the game days before release you don't come up with a vague statement about not being able to say anything and 'noone did anything wrong'. Just state that you're trying to finalise a steam distribution agreement which could ensure the success of the game, and so you can't distribute the game for a few weeks.

Not being able to say anything (Because of legal issues and whatnot), means just that.

But in addition to the lack of communication we also got the news that the single-player game we backed was now turning into a multiplayer game.

"Turning into a multiplayer game" and adding TCP/IP and Hotseat are two completely different things. The singleplayer remains intact and the main focus, just as the game was pitched. Multiplayer is entirely optional and an addition we thought was befitting the game.

And the game was ready around Jan 2013 as promised

No, we thought the game was ready for the 28th of February. We sent out the game to the $30+ backers on that date. Feedback we got showed the game was less ready than we thought (lots of bugs). The delay has helped us catch up to everything, including catching up on the stuff that was a little neglected because of multiplayer.

If you actually look at Kickstarter, you'll see that Jan 2013 is an estimate. It's something you set when you launch, and you try to be optimistic, but it's not always that simple.

After paying essentials like rent for the office, the Gamescom exhibit, and comfortable salaries they didn't have much left over.

The Gamescom exhibit happened DURING the Kickstarter campaign, it was paid out of our own pocket and we had gotten no money from Kickstarter at this point.

 

[Infinitron]

Well, yes and no. First, the game did well on KS. 80k for a first time indie IS an accomplishment. Second, I think the game got good previews and impressions (but maybe I missed something), so I don't think there was anything to indicate that the game won't be well received. Sure, it's always a gamble but it certainly looked that their future was bright.

I can't say much about their GL failure as I don't recall what their page looked like and I don't know what their stats were, but quite a few games are getting GL these days and I can't think of a good reason why they couldn't do what others did.

Well, let's contrast their situation with Legend of Eisenwald's. The Aterdux guys are doing better than them and they're a bunch of Eastern Europeans with accents, not savvy sophisticated Danes. Obviously something about their game didn't resonate.

People are people, VD, they can panic and make mistakes if they think they're not going to be able to make the next rent payment.

Note that this is all hypothetical. I still don't think that any reasonable amount of good reviews could have allowed them to bypass Greenlight. This game is not going to be the next Minecraft or Angry Birds.

 

[Vault Dweller]

People are people, VD, they can panic and make mistakes.

That I agree with.

Note that this is all hypothetical. I still don't think that any reasonable amount of good reviews could have allowed them to bypass Greenlight. This game is not going to be the next Minecraft or Angry Birds.

It doesn't have to be. They took Jeff Vogel's game, didn't they?

 

[Infinitron]

It doesn't have to be. They took Jeff Vogel's game, didn't they?

That was before Greenlight. Steam was weirder and more unpredictable back then. They saw that Vogel was a decades long indie fixture, somebody with a reputation, so they let him on, I guess.

 

[Vault Dweller]

I think it was fairly predictable even back then:

http://gamasutra.com/blogs/ScottTyk...ing_your_Game_On_Steam_from_Valve_no_less.php

QUALITY: Worry more about a polished slice of your game rather than a bug-free version of an unpolished-yet-complete game. They want to see what the final product is going to look and feel like, and understand that bugs will be squashed and more content can be added before release.

Many agreements are signed before the final product is made, so make sure what you send them is polished to perfection.

FUN: You have around 15 minutes to make an impact. These guys have a MOUNTAIN of games to sift through, so hook 'em hard, and if they're still playing your game after 2 hours then you're good to go!

THE BASICS: Include a short description, control scheme, cheat keys, system specs, screenshots...basically a one-sheet of your game to perk their interest the moment they open the submission.

Even if you feel information is redundant or obvious, spell it out, and if your game isn't unique enough to require explanation, then you have another set of problems...

ORIGINALITY: Clones of popular games are traditionally frowned upon, while unique games can quickly win them over. You can imagine the lightning speed at which a VBasic Minesweeper clone gets rejected (but you'd be surprised how many get submitted).

AN OUTSIDERS PERSPECTIVE: Just like a game ad or box cover, always use review quotes, positive press, awards, and community following to show your game not only has potential, but has already impressed people other than mum.
...

Which is pretty much what I said: presentation, polish, positive reviews. Many people didn't do it or didn't know how. Those who did got in.

Last:

"...somebody with a reputation, so they let him on, I guess."

Steam isn't a state-sponsored charity and GL isn't a lottery. It's business. If they think they will make money on your game, they will take it no matter how it reaches them.

 

[Infinitron]

And being an indie dev who has survived for two decades is a pretty good indicator of popularity and profitability.

 

[Vault Dweller]

...that I didn't really care about being on Steam.

Don't buy that one. From a personal view, fine, but as a professional trying to establish himself as a full time designer? Come on, bro~

If we were making an action game, I would have sold a kidney to be on Steam. For a game like AoD? I don't know. The game is as welcoming as the 300 Spartans at that gate and I expect that untold thousands of potential customers won't make it past the first fight.