Codex Preview RPG Codex Report: Expeditions: Conquistador, Logic Artists and Kickstarter

[Grunker]

Stuff

You sound like you're trying to hide something. Are you sure there's not even just a little conspiracy in there? Like Always Online DRM?

 

[Vault Dweller]

"So what’s with the delay? Well as you may have picked up from our embarrassingly uncoordinated attempts to explain it, there is more than one reason for that. First, the delay was because we were talking to bitComposer. Then the delay was because we were waiting to work things out with some major distributors, and though we’re still waiting on that, we expect to be able to release the game this month."

That was everyone's point. Whether or not MP is the result of this cooperation is irrelevant.

 

[winterraptor]

You sound like you're trying to hide something. Are you sure there's not even just a little conspiracy in there? Like Always Online DRM?

Are you blind, man, look:

We're also going to announce an exciting development soon allowing us to expand the game a great deal, we'll just have the minor change of a few discreet Doritos Cool Ranch and Mountain Dew ads that'll display in-game. Not a huge deal really. It won't be during the real immersive parts anyway.

 

[Grunker]

That was everyone's point. Whether or not MP is the result of this cooperation is irrelevant.

It might be your point (even a bit sketchy on that considering some of your statement) but it certainly isn't everyone's.

 

[Avonaeon]

Did you actually read what I said?

We thought the game was in good state. Feedback showed is was in less of a good state than we thought.

 

[Avonaeon]

To clarify. Update #19 was from BEFORE we sent it to backers.

 

[Avonaeon]

Did you actually read what I said?

We thought the game was in good state. Feedback showed is was in less of a good state than we thought.

Yeah. But the delay CONICIDES WITH YOUR UPDATE THAT MENTIONS THE DISTRIBUTION ISSUE.

The update with the distribution issue was the update about the delay. I don't see the point you're trying to make here.

After that update, we sent the beta to the backers, the feedback showed it was less ready than we thought. It's pretty simple. Had we not entered talks with bitComposer and released the game, you'd have had a pretty buggy game.

 

[Avonaeon]

That's exactly what I'm saying! The delay, while unfortunate, has helped the game, because we've had time to fix a shitload of bugs. That's the point I was trying to make.

 

[winterraptor]

 

[Mortmal]

Shrek, stop torturing that guy.. He just admitted they fucked up twice, first by thinking the game was ready and then by delaying the game looking for a publisher deal .They never said they delayed the game cause it was buggy , they discovered it after update 19 at that date and time they genuinely thought the game had no troubles. Its during the delay they discovered it was not the case, and from one harm comes one good they can use the delay to fix stuff.

 

[Avonaeon]

That's exactly what I'm saying! The delay, while unfortunate, has helped the game, because we've had time to fix a shitload of bugs. That's the point I was trying to make.

No.

The point you are trying to make is that you delayed the GAME because of it. Which is of course not corroborating with what you wrote in the update.

Wrong. The game was delayed because of the reasons stated, not because of whatever reason you imagine it to be.
The fact of the matter is, we THOUGHT the game was in good state on the 25th. When we released the beta on the 28th, the feedback showed it was not in as good a state as we thought (Already delayed at this point, remember?). That the game turned out buggier than we thought had nothing to do with the delay.

If you don't want to believe that, fine. I'm telling you like it is, you can take it or leave it.

 

[Avonaeon]

That's exactly what I'm saying! The delay, while unfortunate, has helped the game, because we've had time to fix a shitload of bugs. That's the point I was trying to make.

No.

The point you are trying to make is that you delayed the GAME because of it. Which is of course not corroborating with what you wrote in the update.

Wrong. The game was delayed because of the reasons stated, not because of whatever reason you imagine it to be.
The fact of the matter is, we THOUGHT the game was in good state on the 25th. When we released the beta on the 28th, the feedback showed it was not in as good a state as we thought (Already delayed at this point, remember?). That the game turned out buggier than we thought had nothing to do with the delay.

If you don't want to believe that, fine. I'm telling you like it is, you can take it or leave it.

Would be fair criticism of what i wrote if you had not unwittingly admitted yourself that the delay was due to YOU looking for Distributors.

From where did you pull that "fact" all of a sudden?

 

[Saduj]

I'm still buying the game when it comes out. I don't think Logic Artists are horrible people for what they've done. Their decisions are understandable to me. But I do think they are still doing a pretty bad awful job of communicating. Bottom line is that as of right now the game is ready and the only reason why people who already paid $15 for it are not getting what they paid for is the distribution deal. So they are not getting something they paid for ahead of time in good faith due to concerns that add zero value to them. And they still have no commitment that the game will be released by a specific date. While I can't necessarily blame Logic Artists for the decisions they've made, they should do a much better job at acknowledging that they are inconveniencing people who backed them when they needed that backing to finish their game. The defensive attitude they've shown makes it seem like they fail to grasp the undeniable reality that they have inconvenienced backers and some of them are not happy about it. They have a right to not be happy about it and blowing it off with "well they'll get what they paid for eventually" is bad form.

Also this thread made me go onto Greenlight to upvote Legends of Eisenwald and I found a few other games to vote for while I was at it.......

 

[Infinitron]

What the fuck is going on here, what are you even arguing about

They've never hidden the fact that the game was delayed because of distributors. What other reason could there be?

 

[Avonaeon]

Let me make a claim here: You are well aware of this fact.

Wrong.

I've told it like it is.

I am finished with you guys.

OK.

 

[winterraptor]

Hey retard.

http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...ts-and-kickstarter.80854/page-22#post-2589184

Think he has you on Ignore...

 

[Jaesun]

What the fuck is going on here

Some people forgot to put Shrek on ignore.

 

[uaciaut]

if something i did donate for suddenly came out and said "we got more funding from a publisher that helps us distribute the game and gain more exposure and so we're delaying the game because we think we can further enhance the experience"

An honest explanation is all I wanted. This is what they said:

Unfortunately some distribution complications have come up. We're honestly not sure how much we're supposed to talk about this, and I don't want to cast anybody as the villain here - nobody has done anything wrong, it's just that kind of situation where things turned out to be a little more complicated than we'd hoped, and we need a little extra time to get our ducks in a row.

Ye, i completely see your point and agree with you there, i just think people are going overboard with demonizing these guys for this.

 

[May God Gently Caress You]

One of the reasons why publisher involvement is not desirable would be that they tend to make things confidential, which makes communication between designers and backers even harder and the process less transparent. Crowd-funding doesn't work without transparency and trust. If some people begin to exploit crowd-funding, it will lose trust quickly, which is potentially much bigger issue than my pocket money or the issue of a single company. I think this is why companies such as InXile put their emphasis on transparency. Judging from their reactions, I'm inclined to think that "the issue" here are mostly from the poor communications and naivety but I must ask Logic Artists and other companies to be careful when they are using crowd-funding. For, I'd like it to stay a valid option for old-school RPG makers.

 

[Stelcio]

Avonaeon, do you really believe it's fair to the backers to delay the release of a finished game (at least in your own opinion back then) to pursue a more promising distribution deal? Do you really believe it's not putting theoretical future income over those who initially trusted you and already "bought" the game through Kickstarter? Or maybe you just think that it's not disrespectful at all? That the delay is ok even though the game was ready to go (or was believed to be)?

 

[Spectacle]

If the game had been 100% funded by kickstarter I might be less forgiving of this delay, but seeing how they had put in loads of their own time and money into getting the game into the alpha state we saw on kickstarter, I think it's fair enough that they have to also prioritize being able to sell the finished game so they can recover the expenses.

The communication could clearly have been handled better though.

 

[Stelcio]

Well...

Maybe I'm too harsh. But I'm just very dissapointed by the way it turned out. It feels that my support is not regarded as anyway more important than an ordinary pre-order and LA seems not to feel commited to their backers more than just by delivering the game when it's released. And their bad attempts at covering their pursuit for more money (which isn't bad itself, but they described it as "complications" instead of "opportunities") didn't help so I just went


As Kickstarter is based on trust, transparency, direct communication, etc., this went bad. That's why I won't back them if they try to kickstart any other project. Still looking forward to play E:Q when it's released though.

 

[Grunker]

Maybe I'm too harsh. But I'm just very dissapointed by the way it turned out. It feels that my support is not regarded as anyway more important than an ordinary pre-order and LA seems not to feel commited to their backers more than just by delivering the game when it's released. And their bad attempts at covering their pursuit for more money (which isn't bad itself, but they described it as "complications" instead of "opportunities") didn't help so I just went

I totally get this. In fact I think it's a lesson any developer should learn from the man himself, Fargo. Displaying the proper gratitude to your backers is motherfucking key. We're not "in this together" - you're in this, we just graciously gave you the motherfucking real money funds to do what you wanted to, because we believe in you. Displaying disdain for your backers should be done with utmost care if you're ever thinking about it.

As such, my point regarding bad communication simply was that while I still believe Logic Artists hasn't committed any solid slight against their project, which is the most important thing (i.e. that backers get what they asked for), they haven't handled themselves very gracefully towards the people who believed in them. And that's not cool.

What I orignally hated in this thread was the fact that this very real issue had to become muddled by trolls voicing conspiracies that weren't based on anything but their own guesses at bitComposer's involvement.

 

[Stelcio]

What I orignally hated in this thread was the fact that this very real issue had to become muddled by trolls voicing conspiracies that weren't based on anything but their own guesses at bitComposer's involvement.

I can see why these people started those speculations though. LA did hell of a job to break trust of their backers. They concealed the fact that they implement the multiplayer (whatever their reasons were), they concealed the fact that they are trying to find an alternative way to get on Steam, because presumably that's the reason of getting into a deal with bitComposer. It's not irrational to assume that they may have more unpleasant secrets. Their credibility is strongly impaired.

 

[Grunker]

What I orignally hated in this thread was the fact that this very real issue had to become muddled by trolls voicing conspiracies that weren't based on anything but their own guesses at bitComposer's involvement.

I can see why these people started those speculations though. LA did hell of a job to break trust of their backers. They concealed the fact that they implement the multiplayer (whatever their reasons were), they concealed the fact that they are trying to find an alternative way to get on Steam, because presumably that's the reason of getting into a deal with bitComposer. It's not irrational to assume that they may have more unpleasant secrets. Their credibility is strongly impaired.

I disagree strongly, very strongly, with what you say here, but we've already been over that, so...