Codex Preview RPG Codex Report: Expeditions: Conquistador, Logic Artists and Kickstarter

[Kosmonaut]

Bottom line: communication was poor. You can't announce a release date, make me greenlight your game on steam... and then suddenly dissappear from greenlight, decide to add multiplayer at the last moment and push back the release date and announce/imply mysterious potentially life sucking publisher.

Sequence of events so far:

Careful with this kind of critique. You'll be called edgy and shitposter for call them on their bullshit.

 

[almondblight]

Past earning and friends working fro free thats possible but borderline faery tales, impossible for most people. Add the nice studio to rent or buy as workplace, the 77k are probably unsignificant. How much does that work place cost ? I read that 1M2 in denmark is worth around 2000 euros, lets say 30m2 thats already 60K of the kickstarter money.

Then don't rent an office? People are acting like startups don't bootstrap. That's very common. What' not common is getting $70k up front, or even getting investors at first. I've known a lot of startups in my area that began in someone's basement, or with people working from home. They often have to work two jobs at the same time, or live off of their savings for a bit, or rely on their significant other. Lookup information on startups online - none of them are going to say, "Unless you get your hands on $200k, don't even bother."

I'm sure office space is useful. The gamescom booth may very well have been worth the $6k (my guess) they spent on it. This things may be good, but they aren't necessary, and it doesn't mean the game can't be made with less. And if you really believe that "You can't make a game of this size and complexity with only $77,000," you should tell backers and let them know your situation, or else it may as well be an indie-go-go flexible funding campaign.

Not trying to harp on Logic Artists since they've been better than a lot of projects, but these are issues that keep coming up in Kickstarter campaigns.

 

[mbpopolano24]

Yay, the new beta is out.

Yeah, except the 'beta' was supposed to be the final game until last week... and the 'beta' was shipped with an infinite loop loading screen making the game unplayable... and the beta was quickly removed and out of sight for a while.... and so the 'beta 2' came along and we can now play beta test it... From the immortal words of the developers (and I quote):

Well, this is embarrassing.
It seems a gamebreaking bug snuck into the game yesterday while we were rushing to get everything polished off for the last beta release. If you've experienced an infinite loading screen after the second battle you fought, that's because of this bug. That's what happens when you let your game designer touch the code!

 

[Kosmonaut]

Those guys are getting worse and worse. Only bunch of retarded monkeys would add more functionality to a corpus of code that was essentially feature frozen. Instead, of you know, doing the sensible thing and polishing, squashing bugs and balancing your goddamn game, you add a late-stage component like MP, don't you agree, Grunker?

 

[Grunker]

Not really. That is, I completely agree that the push of the release date and the random addition of multiplayer was handled pretty much like a Gorilla would handle a 4-year-old, but 'retarded monkeys' is just bullshit hyperbole. From the way you and curry handle indie developers, I sometimes get an inkling that one of them stole your girlfriends or something

'Inexperienced dudes making bad decisions' is more accurate.

In essence, I think this whole ordeal has been pretty terrible, but I do hope that the fucking game itself will make up for it.

Have a nice day, Kosmonaut.

 

[evdk]

Since you live so close you could deface their office door in retaliation or something.

 

[Kosmonaut]

I'm really sorry for my "retarded monkeys" comment. And I apologize.

Poor monkeys are not at fault.

 

[Vicar]

Kosmonaut, you're retarted.

 

[mbpopolano24]

Kosmonaut, you're retarted.

We are ALL retarded here. Anybody old enough to write a sentence in a - more or less - meaningful way and spending his/her time posting on the Codex and playing fucking games, instead of, let's say, try to make something out of his/her life is, by definition, retarded.

That said, developers stop to deserve the indie-"I make games in my garage" denomination the minute they go to Kickstarter (or equivalent) and ask for money in advance.

Eschalon 1-2-3.... is an indie game and you can like it or not (I do) - but criticizing the developers for how they handle business is a no-no.

AoD is the same, they can stay in the endless loop of development until earth is no longer in existence and yet it is their fucking business (although I heard they they are accepting pre-order now, which would negate my one reasoning, but hey I am retarted, remember?).

Eador Genesis or Masters of the Broken World is the same (look this up, it's a great strategy game, although I am not sure what 'strategy' means, see above).

So, to conclude my retarded post: Wake up, Logic Artists, this is not college anymore. If you want to make it in this business (and I hope you do, because the game, so far, is interesting), you must put your act together.

 

[Grunker]

Kosmonaut, you're retarted.

We are ALL retarded here. Anybody old enough to write a sentence in a - more or less - meaningful way and spending his/her time posting on the Codex and playing fucking games, instead of, let's say, try to make something out of his/her life is, by definition, retarded.

One of the fallacies I find most amusing in our day and age is the implication that people who play video games are doing it instead of doing something worthwhile.

Nevermind that I think video games are a great hobby compared to many others, why do people assume we play video games to the exclusion of anything else?

I, for one, have no problems balancing social life, work and video games. I'm glad I have this hobby to relieve me from the cradle of shit that life can be if you don't find meaning in glorious pass-times, and I think what you're implying is complete bullshit that buys in to one of the worst paradigms of our time. To see the paradigm reiterated from a news anchor on Fox News if forgiveable - they don't know any better in their retardation. To see a fellow gamer regurgitate it in all its brilliant idiocy is depressing, I suppose, but not nearly enough to drop my joy in this grand pass-time.

But then again, I do shit rainbows. I suppose cynicism is the easy way out.

 

[Kirtai]

One of the fallacies I find most amusing in our day and age is the implication that people who play video games are doing it instead of doing something worthwhile.

Yeah, you could be watching TV instead. So much more worthwhile


Sadly, people actually think this...

 

[Mortmal]

Past earning and friends working fro free thats possible but borderline faery tales, impossible for most people. Add the nice studio to rent or buy as workplace, the 77k are probably unsignificant. How much does that work place cost ? I read that 1M2 in denmark is worth around 2000 euros, lets say 30m2 thats already 60K of the kickstarter money.

Then don't rent an office? People are acting like startups don't bootstrap. That's very common. What' not common is getting $70k up front, or even getting investors at first. I've known a lot of startups in my area that began in someone's basement, or with people working from home. They often have to work two jobs at the same time, or live off of their savings for a bit, or rely on their significant other. Lookup information on startups online - none of them are going to say, "Unless you get your hands on $200k, don't even bother."

I'm sure office space is useful. The gamescom booth may very well have been worth the $6k (my guess) they spent on it. This things may be good, but they aren't necessary, and it doesn't mean the game can't be made with less. And if you really believe that "You can't make a game of this size and complexity with only $77,000," you should tell backers and let them know your situation, or else it may as well be an indie-go-go flexible funding campaign.

Not trying to harp on Logic Artists since they've been better than a lot of projects, but these are issues that keep coming up in Kickstarter campaigns.

And how many of those startup fails ? Like 3/4 of them if i am not wrong. No , the office may be a mandatory thing to motivate the team and work together , sure each of them could slack at home individually then you end up with nothing getting produced at all . Again why those guys should tell backers they cant make the game with only 77K$ , hardly anyone on kickstarter is telling it while its painfully obvious the amount of money is inadequate. Even for big titles i have doubts, the few millions on project etertnity and co arent that much , paying senior developpers, experienced coders, artists for years, isnt cheap.

 

[Rumsfeld]

And how many of those startup fails ? Like 3/4 of them if i am not wrong. No , the office may be a mandatory thing to motivate the team and work together , sure each of them could slack at home individually then you end up with nothing getting produced at all .

So according to your analysis offices are 'mandatory' for successful startups? Hmmm, guess the likes of Google, MSoft, Apple, Facebook et al were founded in spacious state of the art offices. Lucky guys.

Reading your analysis it seems amazing that games get made at all. Or that small developers were ever founded and then developed into larger companies.

Or maybe, just maybe, they were like other entrepreneurs and skimped and cut corners when starting out, hardly paid themselves anything, did without expensive offices, got people to contribute without a salary in exchange for future equity. But believed in what they were doing and ultimately made a success of it in the long run.

And now kickstarter comes along and makes the whole process a lot easier, contributing extra investment with only a few promises in return. And all you can do is criticise the fact that it doesn't cover the entire cost of the project, willfully ignoring the future revenues the project will generate.

 

[Mortmal]

And how many of those startup fails ? Like 3/4 of them if i am not wrong. No , the office may be a mandatory thing to motivate the team and work together , sure each of them could slack at home individually then you end up with nothing getting produced at all .

So according to your analysis offices are 'mandatory' for successful startups? Hmmm, guess the likes of Google, MSoft, Apple, Facebook et al were founded in spacious state of the art offices. Lucky guys.

Reading your analysis it seems amazing that games get made at all. Or that small developers were ever founded and then developed into larger companies.

Or maybe, just maybe, they were like other entrepreneurs and skimped and cut corners when starting out, hardly paid themselves anything, did without expensive offices, got people to contribute without a salary in exchange for future equity. But believed in what they were doing and ultimately made a success of it in the long run.

And now kickstarter comes along and makes the whole process a lot easier, contributing extra investment with only a few promises in return. And all you can do is criticise the fact that it doesn't cover the entire cost of the project, willfully ignoring the future revenues the project will generate.

Yes its amazing so many classic turn based rpgs are done at all, oh wait... there isnt any produced since 2000 or so.

 

[Spectacle]

So according to your analysis offices are 'mandatory' for successful startups? Hmmm, guess the likes of Google, MSoft, Apple, Facebook et al were founded in spacious state of the art offices. Lucky guys.

Those companies were founded in big suburban American garages, not in small Copenhagen apartments.

 

[Monty]

So according to your analysis offices are 'mandatory' for successful startups? Hmmm, guess the likes of Google, MSoft, Apple, Facebook et al were founded in spacious state of the art offices. Lucky guys.

Those companies were founded in big suburban American garages, not in small Copenhagen apartments.

Ah, so that's the secret. Instead of renting expensive offices wannabe startups should be renting suburban garages.

 

[almondblight]

And how many of those startup fails ? Like 3/4 of them if i am not wrong. No , the office may be a mandatory thing to motivate the team and work together , sure each of them could slack at home individually then you end up with nothing getting produced at all . Again why those guys should tell backers they cant make the game with only 77K$ , hardly anyone on kickstarter is telling it while its painfully obvious the amount of money is inadequate. Even for big titles i have doubts, the few millions on project etertnity and co arent that much , paying senior developpers, experienced coders, artists for years, isnt cheap.

What I've read is that 3/4 of venture capital backed start-ups failed. So even if you get the money, there's a good chance of failure. But that number isn't terribly useful, since some ventures are much more risky than others, and there are different definitions for "fail."

Sure, an office could be something this team needs, just like they may need a vacation to get their creative juices flowing - or they might not. The thing is, plenty of startups make do without an office (the lower overhead significantly increases the likelihood not to be those 3/4 that fail). There's no reason to assume that this project in particular needs one. Even if they need a space where they can work together, plenty of businesses begin by using basements or garages as makeshift offices. If I remember right, Stoic turned their office into their studio.

It's painfully obvious that $77k is inadequate? Again, I've seen plenty of companies, including indie game devs, bootstrap with less (or none). It reminds me of the Cole's saying that for $400k it would be impossible to do what Blackthorne is doing for $70k. I'm not sure what about this game makes it obvious that the real budget is $150k instead of $70k, or $300k instead of $150k. Which is why developers should make it clear to backers if the money isn't going to be enough on its own. Hell, isn't the whole point of only being charged when the project reaches it's that it mitigates the risk of backers paying for a project that doesn't have enough money to fulfill it's rewards?

 

[almondblight]

Yes its amazing so many classic turn based rpgs are done at all, oh wait... there isnt any produced since 2000 or so.

Geneforge , KoTC, Eschalon, Prelude to Darkness. Ah, but they were all made by indies without funding, so I guess they don't count. I also doubt that Styg, Davaris or VD received $250k to work on their games.

 

[Mortmal]

Yes its amazing so many classic turn based rpgs are done at all, oh wait... there isnt any produced since 2000 or so.

Geneforge , KoTC, Eschalon, Prelude to Darkness. Ah, but they were all made by indies without funding, so I guess they don't count. I also doubt that Styg, Davaris or VD received $250k to work on their games.

None of those games looks nearly as professionnal as conquistadores, graphics and interface at least, cant judge the gameplay yet. Look at vogel's games, and look at their trailer video, they arent on the same league at all. The indie you quoted are obscure to most gamers and unsatisfying even for less mainstream gamers . As much i love kotc, whos playing it ? A few die hard D&D grognards like me, most people would not touch that with a ten foot pole cause of the look . Eschalon is shit , i wont elaborate on it again. As for age of decadence VD probably hasnt received 250K on it, but he was marketing director in a former life isnt it ? how much of his past earnings have he spent on this project, certainly much more than what a group of students could possibly afford. Oh and forgot, its not released yet.

 

[AC Sleighter]

The indie you quoted are obscure to most gamers and unsatisfying even for less mainstream gamers . As much i love kotc, whos playing it ? A few die hard D&D grognards like me, most people would not touch that with a ten foot pole cause of the look . Eschalon is shit , i wont elaborate on it again. As for age of decadence VD probably hasnt received 250K on it, but he was marketing director in a former life isnt it ? how much of his past earnings have he spent on this project, certainly much more than what a group of students could possibly afford. Oh and forgot, its not released yet.

And Expeditions isn't obscure? It received 1,500 backers. Maybe twice that have heard of it. It's more obscure and lessl known than most of those indies he cited.

 

[Mortmal]

The indie you quoted are obscure to most gamers and unsatisfying even for less mainstream gamers . As much i love kotc, whos playing it ? A few die hard D&D grognards like me, most people would not touch that with a ten foot pole cause of the look . Eschalon is shit , i wont elaborate on it again. As for age of decadence VD probably hasnt received 250K on it, but he was marketing director in a former life isnt it ? how much of his past earnings have he spent on this project, certainly much more than what a group of students could possibly afford. Oh and forgot, its not released yet.

And Expeditions isn't obscure? It received 1,500 backers. Maybe twice that have heard of it. It's more obscure and lessl known than most of those indies he cited.

Its not released yet , but when it will, it will stand proudly on the shelves next other games , while the indies he cited never have and never will. Took years to see vogels on steam, but i bet conquistadore will end up on most online shops very fast, people wont run to the hills when looking at screenshots .
1500 backers that doesnt looks much but i am pretty sure many more saw the page, it was even on kickstarter front page for a while. Visitors just dont give money easily to new guys that never produced any games before.
Dont think its doing to bad already , a simple google search for conquistadore expeditions makes it appears on many review sites.I even read a preview giving it 8/10 http://www.popmatters.com/pm/review/168375-expeditions-conquistador/ .Most french online site have previewed it as welll, no its definitively not obscure .

 

[almondblight]

None of those games looks nearly as professionnal as conquistadores, graphics and interface at least, cant judge the gameplay yet.

I disagree. The videos for AoD look better in my opinion, as do indies like Grimrock and Eisenwald. Underrail and Eschalon might not look as expensive as Conquistador, but they don't look much worse, and they both were made by one guy without funding, and creating their own from scratch (I think). If Vogel or Blue Salamander had a team of six, $70k, and were using Unity could they make a demo that looks as good as Conquistador? Maybe, maybe not, but I think they could. To think it's impossible seems silly to me.

The indie you quoted are obscure to most gamers and unsatisfying even for less mainstream gamers . As much i love kotc, whos playing it ? A few die hard D&D grognards like me, most people would not touch that with a ten foot pole cause of the look .

Ah, so when you said "there isnt any produced since 2000 or so" you meant "there haven't been any produced since 2000 that's scored 9.7/10 on IGN." Well, as long as we know what's important in life...

As for age of decadence VD probably hasnt received 250K on it, but he was marketing director in a former life isnt it ? how much of his past earnings have he spent on this project, certainly much more than what a group of students could possibly afford.

Good point. Professional marketing directors can work at home and scrimp and save. A "group of students" needs to spend tens of thousands of dollars renting an office and going to Gamescom. Gotcha.

 

[Mortmal]

No i dont care what is their score is on IGN, i say there's nothing comparable to baldur's gate, fallout torment arcanum and co, and so far indies have been less than satisfying to replace them. Until those kickstarter launched we were happy to find rpgs with half the feature the old utimas had and the graphic quality of the 6th one at best .
To be honest i prefer people that request money upfront, go to gamescon (trying to advertise your game what an outrage!) and deliver the games in a relatively small amount of time, than those home workers "scrimping and saving " but dragging their project years and years and nothing getting published. Grimrock is nice too, but it started ten years ago , wish they had worked full time on it since the begining, we would be playing grimrock 4 by now . Those one man , without funding thing arent viable to provide me what i want.

 

[almondblight]

No i dont care what is their score is on IGN, i say there's nothing comparable to baldur's gate, fallout torment arcanum and co, and so far indies have been less than satisfying to replace them. Until those kickstarter launched we were happy to find rpgs with half the feature the old utimas had and the graphic quality of the 6th one at best .

Most people seem to agree that KoTC is one of the best implementations of turn-based combat (along with ToEE, also post-2000). Genforge is one of the better games for choices and consequences - certainly better than Baldur's Gate (and I'd argue Fallout and PST as well).

To be honest i prefer people that request money upfront, go to gamescon (trying to advertise your game what an outrage!) and deliver the games in a relatively small amount of time, than those home workers "scrimping and saving " but dragging their project years and years and nothing getting published. Grimrock is nice too, but it started ten years ago , wish they had worked full time on it since the begining, we would be playing grimrock 4 by now . Those one man , without funding thing arent viable to provide me what i want.

Yeah, Grimrock has been going on for a while. But according to the Kickstarter for Conquistador, development has been going along for a while too (they said they were finished with all the core systems), and they already have some product they've been selling (which implies a revenue stream). I'm not sure how that screams "we could never finish it even if we raise $77k." How do I know how long they've been working on the game? How do I know what kind of revenue they have? How do I know the scope of the game they're trying to make?

No, it's not horrible to advertise at Gamescom. But it should be obvious that there's a difference between "they couldn't possibly make this game for that kind of money" and "they couldn't possibly make this game and buy everything on their wish list for that kind of money."

 

[Avonaeon]

We payed for going to Gamescom (And the booth) out of our own pocket. The Kickstarter campaign was still going on while we went there.
I think it's pretty amazing how many assumptions you guys are making. Who said we didn't work for free, for months, just so we could make this game happen? Who says we didn't work out of a shitty little place before we moved into our current office in December?
As of now, development for this game has been going on for just over 10 months. And as for that niche game for a niche phone that we made, yeah, we're raking in millions with that.

The only thing getting a publisher has actually done to the game itself, distribution issues aside, is making it possible to localize the game into German.