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Review RPG Codex reviews Risen 2: Dark Waters

Dantus12

Educated
Joined
Oct 26, 2010
Messages
235
Fantastic review .:salute:

Still haven't made it to the end of the game , probably never will, but the game is the ultimate guide on "How to fuck up a sandbox?"
It was expected, but not this much.
We are facing the end of PB, maybe they will make Risen 3 but that's it.
If they got their Gothic license back , I don't want to think about it. Now the so unpopular Gothic 3 seems like a great game.
Imagine Risen online on the social webs like Drakensang. What where they thinking.
 

thesheeep

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Whoa!

I wasn't aware it was that bad. I thought the mass of negative reviews was because people were too dumb to play (as it happens so often...).
 

Darth Roxor

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You can skip that combat sequence if you simply advance the main quest.

I remember I was running around the whole fucking island, wondering whether I haven't missed something. The shaman didn't give me the thingy to go through the firewalls so I couldn't get to the temple, the inquisition base was all like 'GO DO SOMETHING OMG', and the natives were all "OMG YOU LIE HE'S NOT GARCIA". Only thing left was fighting :/
 
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Fantastic review .:salute:

Still haven't made it to the end of the game , probably never will, but the game is the ultimate guide on "How to fuck up a sandbox?"
It was expected, but not this much.
We are facing the end of PB, maybe they will make Risen 3 but that's it.
If they got their Gothic license back , I don't want to think about it. Now the so unpopular Gothic 3 seems like a great game.
Imagine Risen online on the social webs like Drakensang. What where they thinking.

Gothic 3 was pretty good once the community patched it to hell and back. Mind you, once patches have changed the combat system, the difficulty, the spawns, the levelling/exp balance and the AI, and the 'plot' of the original game is largely procedural (in terms of 'get x rep, take x towns/rebel-camps, then move to endgame) I'm not sure whether you can still call it PB's Gothic 3. But with the various changes making the gameplay workable (not great but not shit either), it allows you to appreciate the aspects that are incline over Oblivion, like the handplaced world, the quirks of each town, some of the better quests and factional implementations etc.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
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Messages
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It's funny to compare it to Risen, and I kind of get people who liked Risen but hate Risen 2. Risen was very unspectacular, very careful and kind of bland. It didn't do anything new or ambitious and by doing so avoided failing at anything, too. Risen 2 tries much more, and thus fails much more. So yeah, it's a lot like going from Gothic 2 to 3. Good ideas, overly ambitious. That makes it easier to criticize than Risen 1 was, sure, but I don't agree it's a significantly worse game (other than some needless dumbing down/QTE shit etc). Is intense mediocrity really that much better than trying and failing to do something more? Hmmm.

Good review. I'm a little surprised to see you pick Maracai Bay as one of the worst examples of exploration, when it is the location with the single-most spots to climb up on the mountainsides and discover hidden caches. Pretty minor stuff, I know, especially if you consider the climbing a chore, but I liked the location.

I didn't find combat that annoying. But then again, I finished the game with gunplay. Gunplay combat is simple and fast, but not frustrating. It's a shame to miss the voodoo gameplay for it, but it does make the game better. "Shortening combat makes it better" is not much of a compliment.

I also find it interesting that you didn't find that many alternate solutions. There's like four ways to get into the pirate camp to reach Steelbeard, and quite a few quests have specific "voodoo" solutions (not a ton, and not all with voodoo mind control. It was underused, yes, but sadly, it's expensive due to voice acting. Oh boy, voice acting cost strikes again). Stealing isn't used so much, but silver tongue is actually used very frequently. Not that there weren't a lot of fetch/kill quests too, but that's kind of a PB staple. Compared to Risen's weird predilection to fall back on combat as a solution for almost every quest, the dependency on voodoo, monkeys, and dialog skills was kind of a breath of relief.

As for the Maracai quest...it actually makes some sense how it works, narratively. It doesn't make much sense in a meta-gaming way but I find it odd to see you complain here that it becomes too challenging. I liked the challenge, though I didn't do it the way you did: you can attack them from outside the village and lure them out to avoid having to fight everyone at once. Yay, thinking on your feet! The game recognizes them as enemies and they get killed rather than knocked out. Yay, multiple solutions! Still, it would've made more sense if the inquisition guys were willing to help you out.

Face it: The game is a failure for any PB fan

I'm a PB fan of the first hour and I enjoyed it.

You can skip that combat sequence if you simply advance the main quest.

If you uncover it in the sequence he did, I'm pretty sure you can't. The dude still has the potion you need, so you need to kill him to progress the main quest.
 

Darth Roxor

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It's funny to compare it to Risen, and I kind of get people who liked Risen but hate Risen 2. Risen was very unspectacular, very careful and kind of bland. It didn't do anything new or ambitious and by doing so avoided failing at anything, too. Risen 2 tries much more, and thus fails much more. So yeah, it's a lot like going from Gothic 2 to 3. Good ideas, overly ambitious. That makes it easier to criticize than Risen 1 was, sure, but I don't agree it's a significantly worse game (other than some needless dumbing down/QTE shit etc). Is intense mediocrity really that much better than trying and failing to do something more? Hmmm.

Risen 1 was not intensely mediocre, quite the contrary. It was a very good game that did bring some new stuff, or at least improvements, to the general Gothic formula, without sacrificing anything or massively screwing anything up. Yes, a safe and sound approach is much better than putting out something as failed, half-arsed and unpolished.

I wouldn't even say that Risen 2 is 'trying', no. They certainly might have had some neat ideas, but they never tried to bring them to life. Instead they've gone through the path of least resistance, making sure that just about each and every feature is simply 'done' without any additional thinking about it, which becomes apparent when you start thinking how all of that stuff could have been easily fixed, but wasn't. Trying and failing, producing a rough diamond, is certainly commendable. Failing without trying, however, is the worst thing you can do.

Good review. I'm a little surprised to see you pick Maracai Bay as one of the worst examples of exploration, when it is the location with the single-most spots to climb up on the mountainsides and discover hidden caches. Pretty minor stuff, I know, especially if you consider the climbing a chore, but I liked the location.

Maracai Bay is horrible because there is no exploration. A hidden cache is not hidden if there's a fuckhueg neon sign saying 'HERE BE CHESTS' (those godawful rock shelves). Furthermore, it hardly can be called exploration when all the exploring you do is hop hop hop three times, open a chest, hop hop hop down. And even if the climbing wasn't as horrible, it still wouldn't excuse Maracai's general corridor construction.

I didn't find combat that annoying. But then again, I finished the game with gunplay. Gunplay combat is simple and fast, but not frustrating. It's a shame to miss the voodoo gameplay for it, but it does make the game better. "Shortening combat makes it better" is not much of a compliment.

I also finished the game with guns.

I also find it interesting that you didn't find that many alternate solutions. There's like four ways to get into the pirate camp to reach Steelbeard, and quite a few quests have specific "voodoo" solutions (not a ton, and not all with voodoo mind control. It was underused, yes, but sadly, it's expensive due to voice acting. Oh boy, voice acting cost strikes again). Stealing isn't used so much, but silver tongue is actually used very frequently. Not that there weren't a lot of fetch/kill quests too, but that's kind of a PB staple. Compared to Risen's weird predilection to fall back on combat as a solution for almost every quest, the dependency on voodoo, monkeys, and dialog skills was kind of a breath of relief.

From what I've noticed, silver tongue was mostly an alternative in terms of "pay 1000 gold / use silver tongue - choices and consequences".

Perhaps there was a ton of alternate solutions that I somehow didn't manage to find. But if so, it stems from another problem - for the most part, there's seriously little different approaches, and once you go through 20 fetch quests with nothing else to do but going from A to B, you just stop expecting the game to throw alternate solutions at you, and you stop actively seeking them. At least, I know it happened to me. I completely didn't think about using the monkey to steal the pistol from the gunsmith in Antigua.

As for the Maracai quest...it actually makes some sense how it works, narratively. It doesn't make much sense in a meta-gaming way but I find it odd to see you complain here that it becomes too challenging.

"Narratively makes sense" is a weak excuse, especially when it doesn't. The Protectors should have sent a dispatch with you, that would be the best outcome.

And challenging? No, it's not challenging. There's a pretty big line separating "challenging" from "unfair". If the mechanics themselves make the game challenging, each fight, even 1v1 on equal footing, is challenging. In a scenario like that, 1v2 is still challenging, 1v3 is hard, but also can be manageable.

But when the mechanics are unfair towards you, or the devs suddenly think that dropping a manbomb on you is a good idea, it's simply bad design. This is the same kind of "challenging" that makes Arcania challenging on maximum difficulty - all enemies become gigantic hp sponges that take all day to kill, instagib you with 1-2 hits and move so fast it's like they've been dropped into a red bull cauldron at youth. But lololololo sir it's challenging u gotta liek be careful and hit stuff a lot to not die!

I liked the challenge, though I didn't do it the way you did: you can attack them from outside the village and lure them out to avoid having to fight everyone at once. Yay, thinking on your feet! The game recognizes them as enemies and they get killed rather than knocked out. Yay, multiple solutions!

See, this is another instance of those "multiple solutions" that I've talked about before. The whole game all npcs are immortal. How the HELL am I supposed to expect that suddenly they'll lose their IDDQD?
 

Tolknaz

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Some PB renegade should write a tell-all about Deep Silver's demands so we can separate the bad ideas from the bad execution.

I would be kind of interested in that too. I still wonder how much of what was wrong with Risen 2 was actually Piranha Bytes and how much was Deep Silver. I somehow doubt, that those idiotic minigames, QTE-s, DLC on disk, no swimming or free climbing etc. were all PB-s idea. And the underwhelming combat system was really just a result of delivering the game too early. Look at how much the first patch changed combat. If that's not the sign of rushed development i really don't know what is. In other words i think they could still be a very competent developer if given resources and more creative freedom. Too bad i don't really see a publisher who would do that. Kickstarter wouldn't really be an option for them, because i doubt they could make even nearly as much as Fargo or Schafer and i bet their games cost a lot more than that.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
Developer
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Messages
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Risen 1 was not intensely mediocre, quite the contrary.

I disagree. What else is there to say? Risen was like a very undaring attempt to do what made Gothic work. It certainly wasn't a bad game, until the final 1/4th, but it was a bit of a snoozer.

I wouldn't even say that Risen 2 is 'trying', no. They certainly might have had some neat ideas, but they never tried to bring them to life.

I'm not sure how you know this, because that's quite something to state simply on assumptions. It "becomes apparent"? Then explain.

And challenging? No, it's not challenging.


*shrugs* It was a good fight the way I did it.

Though my first character, gunless as he was, had a harder time with the final 1v1 fight on the other path for this quest, with a lot of strafing around while healing. Yeah, combat isn't good. But let's not put on rose-tinted glasses. Perhaps you should have replayed Risen before reviewing this. Do you remember how end-game fights worked there? You killed the enemy in two hits or it killed you. It felt purely chance and luck-based, and incredibly tedious. That's not to say that excuses much, but your point seems to rely heavily on Risen 2 being a step back from Risen 1 in every way, and that just seems incorrect, to me.

See, this is another instance of those "multiple solutions" that I've talked about before. The whole game all npcs are immortal. How the HELL am I supposed to expect that suddenly they'll lose their IDDQD?

Now this is really interesting. In the same post, you complain about "huge neon signs", yet when Piranha Bytes does not make alternate solutions obvious - something they have never done in their games - you are now complaining "how the hell" you're supposed to figure it out? Same way you always did in PB games, by trying it out and seeing if it worked.

You know the immortality switch is related to NPCs being considered permanently hostile or not. You have discovered their identity and realize there is a fight upcoming. So you try and see if their switches are still on. That's how it worked for me. Same with using the monkey on occasion, or using voodoo spells to bypass guards or watchful eyes. "It isn't obvious" is the weirdest criticism ever, for a Piranha Bytes game.

That's not to say there's a ton of creative solutions, but that's not really new for Piranha Bytes games either. The biggest change structurally, to me, was removing the shortcut of beating people up (which was badly abused in Risen 1, to the point of being farcical) and - sadly - making stealing much too easy and pointless.
 

godsend1989

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Oct 30, 2009
Messages
270
Divinity: Original Sin
After first few hours of playing Risen 2 i went on the game forum to rage like a normal person will do, apparently i was not alone but moderators made a shocking reply.

They said that they got tons of negative feedback from Risen 1 combat and this time they tried something different and now again negative feedback, very confusing.

I must add that i got the same feeling from Risen 1 combat at first but after you got some talents how to wield a sword properly the combat was a blast, not in Risen 2 anymore this time its broke for good.

An here i`m not talking about odd combat animations, for me Gothic series were always about strange and unnatural animation for anything like running funny or eating a plant, but that set it apart in a good way.

I will always remember Risen 1 with a entertaining combat and a retarded end game boss fight, Risen 2 has retarded combat from start to bottom don`t know about end game boss.. didnt got that far, already uninstalled it.
 

Darth Roxor

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I'm not sure how you know this, because that's quite something to state simply on assumptions. It "becomes apparent"? Then explain.

The solutions to almost all the problems are easy to think of when giving them a second guess, which I believe implies pretty well that they didn't bother giving them second guesses.

But let's not put on rose-tinted glasses.

Don't ever use this phrase again, for God's sake.

Perhaps you should have replayed Risen before reviewing this. Do you remember how end-game fights worked there? You killed the enemy in two hits or it killed you. It felt purely chance and luck-based, and incredibly tedious. That's not to say that excuses much, but your point seems to rely heavily on Risen 2 being a step back from Risen 1 in every way, and that just seems incorrect, to me.

What I remember from the end-game fights in Risen 1 was that I kept steamrolling the lizardmen while skillfully evading their attacks and feeling very satisfied that I managed to master the combat system :smug:

roll roll roll shoot shoot roll roll roll did not feel satisfying

Now this is really interesting. In the same post, you complain about "huge neon signs", yet when Piranha Bytes does not make alternate solutions obvious - something they have never done in their games - you are now complaining "how the hell" you're supposed to figure it out? Same way you always did in PB games, by trying it out and seeing if it worked.

Complaining about neon signs for exploration = complaining about stupid mechanics?

There is a whole lot of difference between jumping over the wall in Khorinis - which is a non-obvious alternate way in that you have to find - and exploiting a loophole in NPC routines that I would assume doesn't stem out of anything other than 'fuck this, I'm bored, let's just try to slaughter stuff at rando- HEY IT WORKS'. One is a set and hidden alternative. The other I couldn't in any way call a feature, more like pure dumb luck-based metagaming.

"It isn't obvious" is the weirdest criticism ever, for a Piranha Bytes game

It applies to this one specific example because it's not a matter of 'trying stuff to see if it works'. If it doesn't work in every other place (and it doesn't), then I shouldn't be expected to suddenly realise that an invisible switch has been triggered, making a bunch of NPCs become mortal.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
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The solutions to almost all the problems are easy to think of when giving them a second guess, which I believe implies pretty well that they didn't bother giving them second guesses.

Game development isn't really that easy. Especially with a small staff like PB has. It's assuming too much based on too little, for my tastes.

What I remember from the end-game fights in Risen 1 was that I kept steamrolling the lizardmen while skillfully evading their attacks and feeling very satisfied that I managed to master the combat system

Interesting. My experience was nothing like that. Not that I couldn't beat the lizardmen without getting hit once, but it felt more like luck and patience than skill.

There is a whole lot of difference between jumping over the wall in Khorinis - which is a non-obvious alternate way in that you have to find - and exploiting a loophole in NPC routines that I would assume doesn't stem out of anything other than 'fuck this, I'm bored, let's just try to slaughter stuff at rando- HEY IT WORKS'. One is a set and hidden alternative. The other I couldn't in any way call a feature, more like pure dumb luck-based metagaming.

"It isn't obvious" is the weirdest criticism ever, for a Piranha Bytes game

It applies to this one specific example because it's not a matter of 'trying stuff to see if it works'. If it doesn't work in every other place (and it doesn't), then I shouldn't be expected to suddenly realise that an invisible switch has been triggered, making a bunch of NPCs become mortal.

So, if I understand correctly, the difference between "well-designed non-obvious alternate ways" is whether or not it occurred to you to try it out, even though the requirements are pretty much the same (you can't jump over any other wall but this one, you can't kill enemies unless they're set as permanent enemies). Interesting. So, based on the same logic, you didn't bother to try out voodoo or monkey solutions, and then you blame the game for providing alternate solutions?

Interesting.

When I went to the pirate camp, I could:
a) silver tongue or intimidate the guard (forgot which one)
b) bribe the guard
c) leave dialog, beat him up, and when I talk to him again he is intimidated and opens the gate
d) If on a mission from the Inquisition leader, use this letter to gain entry
e) move around the beach to the other gate

How is that any worse than anything PB has done before? Is the c) option outside of your arbitrary definition of what makes for good non-obvious alternate ways? Is e)? Your argument is a little close to "I hate it because I hate it", seems to me.
 

Darth Roxor

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I... really can't tell whether you are serious or pulling my leg here, bronone.
 

Jaedar

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Risen had the best combat of the gothics.

This review was pretty interesting to me, because while I can't really say I disagree with any points, I still think the game as a whole is decent.
 

Metro

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I skimmed through BN's old review after reading DR's and I still think BN gave a fairly accurate review if a little more forgiving. He didn't really say much on the melee combat which is by far my biggest complaint in Risen 2 and something that jumped out at me no less than ten minutes into the demo. You can tell right off the bat how inferior it is from the first game and G1/G2.
 

Achilles

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What do you think makes it so inferior? If anything I found the added elements like the voodoo stuff and Dirty tricks provided some variety that was sorely needed. Is it because attacks are no longer that much timing-based?
 

epikitscheesy

Liturgist
Joined
Nov 17, 2010
Messages
146
I occasionally roam the risen forums and what was communicated there by the officials of DS and PB prior to the release already put me off the game big time.
I never thought I could have such a low appetite for a PB game. This review is so affirmative of my preconception of this game that I won't even bother torrenting it on occasion and retain a clear conscience. Thanks for this article!

And that closes the chapter Piranha Bytes for me. They may own a glorious franchise, but the actual concept of THE Gothic game now resides in the heads of the fans and is never to be owned again. Good Bye!
 

Forest Dweller

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I don't know, they made the shittiest game in the franchise (Gothic 3) and then followed it up with what I consider to be the best one (Risen). Looks like they can go back and forth at will. I guess each game will have to be evaluated individually.
 

Brother None

inXile Entertainment
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You consider Risen better than Gothic II Gold? I don't even...Gothic II Gold is one of my favorite games of all time. None of Gothic 3, Risen or Risen 2 comes close.

I skimmed through BN's old review after reading DR's and I still think BN gave a fairly accurate review if a little more forgiving. He didn't really say much on the melee combat which is by far my biggest complaint in Risen 2 and something that jumped out at me no less than ten minutes into the demo. You can tell right off the bat how inferior it is from the first game and G1/G2.

Yeah. I just didn't hate it so much, but then again, my swordplay/voodoo playthrough was cut off by a bug. And gunplay just isn't as problematic. It's super-simplified, but not, y'know, annoying to play. Just very easy and fast, which makes combat boring, but not a choir.

I didn't think it was that good in any of their previous games though. Better, sure, but I never played their games for the combat. Maybe that's just me. Risen 2 does make it much more varied than others do, especially Risen, which really only had close combat and arrows/magic arrows. But whether or not that's interesting to you depends on how much you like using various methods.
 

Metro

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What do you think makes it so inferior? If anything I found the added elements like the voodoo stuff and Dirty tricks provided some variety that was sorely needed. Is it because attacks are no longer that much timing-based?

That's my main complaint. Secondary would be that it feels to 'floaty' -- sort of how melee felt in Divinity 2. Hits didn't feel substantial. Just doesn't feel as smooth and natural as it did in previous PB games (excluding G3). Thus, imo, the added strategic moves from dirty tricks, etc. sort of fell flat.

I didn't think it was that good in any of their previous games though. Better, sure, but I never played their games for the combat. Maybe that's just me. Risen 2 does make it much more varied than others do, especially Risen, which really only had close combat and arrows/magic arrows. But whether or not that's interesting to you depends on how much you like using various methods.

Certainly I didn't play/enjoy the Gothics and Risen solely for the combat but considering it takes up a bulk of the games then bad melee combat can pretty much make it unplayable in my view. As you note it is more of a boring chore you have to slog through rather than being another enjoyable facet of the game.
 

Forest Dweller

Smoking Dicks
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Brother None

inXile Entertainment
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That's solid reasoning, Dicksmoker. But as is clear by now, I really care a lot less about combat than others, even in an action-RPG like this. The atmosphere, exploration and multiple solutions are what always drew me on, and Gothic II mostly wins in all that.

But yeah, I don't disagree with your logic at all. Just a matter of taste/weighting preferences.
 

CreamyBlood

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Feb 10, 2005
Messages
1,392
I normally don't chime in until I've finished a game so my opinion could be wrong. G2NotR is their best but Risen was a surprise for me. I only played through the first two islands in Risen 2 and I 'felt' there was something off with it.

It felt dumbed down, sliced apart and just missed that special 'something'. I'll buy it and try it out when they finish releasing it (at the time it had hacked out content). I liked Risen, it's not as great as G2 but it was a good game, I slogged through the last half. If they'd balanced out the dungeon crawl with the rest of the game it could have been great.

We'll see. My first impressions of the demo for Risen 2 were not great. Of course, I only made it through the first two islands before losing interest. I'm just dissapointed. I expected a lot more and the game felt like more of a chore than a good, challenging, exploration type of game. I'll give it a another shot when it's on sale next year for ten bucks.

Good luck, PB.
 

Edwin

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Game is good,I already played around 50 hours(somewhere around halfway through the game).I am the guy who picks up every single coconut and spirit lilly,blasts temle doors open with cannons,steals everything everywhere etc.I never finished Risen 1(but i was close I think) but I will go through this 1(and continue my risen 1 save right after).

Best game I played this year,suffers from consolitis but which game doesnt nowadays

the review sux,game is not as bad as it sounds,wont be a classic but if you are looking for a fun way to kill time(the ultimate goal imo) it is ok
 

Metro

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:hmmm:
 

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