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RPG Codex's Best cRPGs - DISCUSS THREAD / NOW ACCEPTING REVIEWS

Zboj Lamignat

Arcane
Joined
Feb 15, 2012
Messages
5,743
Arcanum clinging to the "most overrated" title ahead of FNV is still an :incline: and Wiz8 making top 10 is a definite :incline:

Meh to the rest.
 

Ravel myluv

Learned
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
117
The points system will stand a good chance of knocking Icewind Dale down. Which is its stated goal, so in that it is a success. But it will also do so at the expense of all the old, obscure, or indie efforts, which won't even have a chance at the top 10. Even if everybody on here who played such a game were to step in and vote a 5er, it won't be enough to compete against the many hundreds of points that the popular games are already well on their way to getting. Particularly so with M&M and Gold Box that have so many titles, which will be splitting their already meager votes.

If everybody who played a game gives it a 5 rating, but it still can't be a best-of RPG, there's a problem in the data.

Yet, that is but the nature of a points system covering a spread where those voting haven't actually experienced everything being voted upon. The points will tend to massively accrue in the hands of the super popular.

Super popular games are so for a reason. Yes it can be tiring to see Fallout 1 and 2, PST in the top forever. But don't they deserve their place?
The amount by which they're winning is probably excessive yes, but the final result will be the same anyway.
 

evdk

comrade troglodyte :M
Patron
Joined
Mar 31, 2004
Messages
11,292
Location
Corona regni Bohemiae
Codex 2012 Serpent in the Staglands Dead State Divinity: Original Sin Project: Eternity Torment: Tides of Numenera Wasteland 2 A Beautifully Desolate Campaign Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
So, when the KS titles are out and inevitably disappoint half the members, are we going to do this all over again to see how much it does not change the placement of the top three games?
 

Telengard

Arcane
Joined
Nov 27, 2011
Messages
1,621
Location
The end of every place
The points system will stand a good chance of knocking Icewind Dale down. Which is its stated goal, so in that it is a success. But it will also do so at the expense of all the old, obscure, or indie efforts, which won't even have a chance at the top 10. Even if everybody on here who played such a game were to step in and vote a 5er, it won't be enough to compete against the many hundreds of points that the popular games are already well on their way to getting. Particularly so with M&M and Gold Box that have so many titles, which will be splitting their already meager votes.

If everybody who played a game gives it a 5 rating, but it still can't be a best-of RPG, there's a problem in the data.

Yet, that is but the nature of a points system covering a spread where those voting haven't actually experienced everything being voted upon. The points will tend to massively accrue in the hands of the super popular.

Super popular games are so for a reason. Yes it can be tiring to see Fallout 1 and 2, PST in the top forever. But don't they deserve their place?
The amount by which they're winning is probably excessive yes, but the final result will be the same anyway.
If everything is set on an even playing field and they win, great. If the system is set up so an outsider can never win, no matter how great it might be, not good.

And by popular, I also mean Dragon Age and Mass Effect, which were doing quite well comparatively last I checked.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,301
Location
Terra da Garoa
'd you see that weighted factor I said about?
Only on the Top 5, that were known to all since the start. And that's still good, shows just how loved those games are.

The rest of the games are having a much tighter fight for the Top, with the "popular but not that amazing" games like Baldur's Gate 1, Icewind Dale 2 and ToEE not getting free rides to the top as they did on previous lists. Every game still has a chance, because even one person voting 5 matters.
 

Ravel myluv

Learned
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
117
The points system will stand a good chance of knocking Icewind Dale down. Which is its stated goal, so in that it is a success. But it will also do so at the expense of all the old, obscure, or indie efforts, which won't even have a chance at the top 10. Even if everybody on here who played such a game were to step in and vote a 5er, it won't be enough to compete against the many hundreds of points that the popular games are already well on their way to getting. Particularly so with M&M and Gold Box that have so many titles, which will be splitting their already meager votes.

If everybody who played a game gives it a 5 rating, but it still can't be a best-of RPG, there's a problem in the data.

Yet, that is but the nature of a points system covering a spread where those voting haven't actually experienced everything being voted upon. The points will tend to massively accrue in the hands of the super popular.

Super popular games are so for a reason. Yes it can be tiring to see Fallout 1 and 2, PST in the top forever. But don't they deserve their place?
The amount by which they're winning is probably excessive yes, but the final result will be the same anyway.
If everything is set on an even playing field and they win, great. If the system is set up so an outsider can never win, no matter how great it might be, not good.

And by popular, I also mean Dragon Age and Mass Effect, which were doing quite well comparatively last I checked.

The system is fair to me.
Whatever the system you adopt, it won't make the sales of these games be better than they are, so they will always lose.

Not enough people have played those hidden gems? Well tough shit, but creating a system to improve their votes would also be super biaised.
The only way is to create a competition between those games, excluding the classics.
 

Grunker

RPG Codex Ghost
Patron
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
Messages
27,748
Location
Copenhagen
I'll make the same prediction I made the last four years: no matter which method we use, people will still complain that Baldur's Gate 2 and Fallout win and their favourite blobber from '88 loses.
 

Rake

Arcane
Joined
Oct 11, 2012
Messages
2,969
So, when the KS titles are out and inevitably disappoint half the members, are we going to do this all over again to see how much it does not change the placement of the top three games?
Not Top 3 maybe, but if not one of these "new classics" of the "new Golden Era" makes it to my Top 5 i will be disapointed with both inXile and Obsidian.
 

Lady_Error

█▓▒░ ░▒▓█
Patron
Joined
Oct 14, 2012
Messages
1,879,250
We need more hipster votes going against the mainstream... I like the ones with the obscure titles or favorite RPG's from 1988.
 

Telengard

Arcane
Joined
Nov 27, 2011
Messages
1,621
Location
The end of every place
The points system will stand a good chance of knocking Icewind Dale down. Which is its stated goal, so in that it is a success. But it will also do so at the expense of all the old, obscure, or indie efforts, which won't even have a chance at the top 10. Even if everybody on here who played such a game were to step in and vote a 5er, it won't be enough to compete against the many hundreds of points that the popular games are already well on their way to getting. Particularly so with M&M and Gold Box that have so many titles, which will be splitting their already meager votes.

If everybody who played a game gives it a 5 rating, but it still can't be a best-of RPG, there's a problem in the data.

Yet, that is but the nature of a points system covering a spread where those voting haven't actually experienced everything being voted upon. The points will tend to massively accrue in the hands of the super popular.

Super popular games are so for a reason. Yes it can be tiring to see Fallout 1 and 2, PST in the top forever. But don't they deserve their place?
The amount by which they're winning is probably excessive yes, but the final result will be the same anyway.
If everything is set on an even playing field and they win, great. If the system is set up so an outsider can never win, no matter how great it might be, not good.

And by popular, I also mean Dragon Age and Mass Effect, which were doing quite well comparatively last I checked.

The system is fair to me.
Whatever the system you adopt, it won't make the sales of these games be better than they are, so they will always lose.

Not enough people have played those hidden gems? Well tough shit, but creating a system to improve their votes would also be super biaised.
The only way is to create a competition between those games, excluding the classics.
Actually it's not the only way. There is the dull and time-consuming method of having everyone rate every RPG they played and finding the average score of each game. Every game is then tried on the same field, and if the best RPG one day happens to be an indie, it will score the best, no matter if only 1/1000 of the people that played Dragon Age ever play it. That method is just too large a process for a volunteer data collection system.

And then there is the previous system. While the previous system did weight in favor of games that lots of people have purchased over titles that fewer people have purchased, the points system now in play heavily magnifies that trend. For example, lots of people have purchased Dragon Age, and the game can get 1-5 points from each of those people. Few people have played KOTC, and KOTC can get 1-5 points from those people. KOTC does not have the same range of points available to it that Dragon Age does. With the points multiplier magnifying the popular purchases by a heavy factor, it's not even playing in the same ballpark.
 

Daedalos

Arcane
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
5,597
Location
Denmark
I don't get all this debate..

Are people upset that the same top 3-5 games seem to win every time?

Because they are popular and people generally like them and are familiar with them.

Some arguments seem to rest upon the fact that, if every RPG fan had tried every RPG game, the list would look very different.. as to what game is "objectively" better.

I guess there's a clear reason why something is popular, it means it's good, and better than most. Not always though, but mostly.
 

felipepepe

Codex's Heretic
Patron
Joined
Feb 2, 2007
Messages
17,301
Location
Terra da Garoa
I think some people are just bored that it has been more than a decade since the Top 5 games were released, and absolutely nothing came even close to dethroning them.
 

Zetor

Arcane
Joined
Jan 9, 2003
Messages
1,706
Location
Budapest, Hungary
Superhero League of Hoboken didn't make top 50 in the previous poll -- thus, the new system cannot be any worse than the old one. QED.
 

Roguey

Codex Staff
Staff Member
Sawyerite
Joined
May 29, 2010
Messages
36,597
Just for fun, partial results, counting only the first 2 pages, for 48 votes:

Planescape: Torment - 113
Fallout 1 - 103
Fallout 2 - 96
Baldur's Gate 2 - 67
Arcanum - 49
Gothic 2 - 40
VtM: Bloodlines - 38
Wizardry 8 - 35
Deus Ex - 34
Morrowind - 34

Where's your Sawyer now, Roguey ?
:smug:
Eh, maybe it needs a few more years to grow on others.

2005 said:
1. Fallout
2. Planescape: Torment
3. Fallout 2
4. Arcanum
5. Baldur’s Gate 2: Shadows of Amn
6. Deus Ex
7. Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines
8. Ultima 7: The Black Gate // Baldur’s Gate
9. System Shock 2 // Gothic 2
10. Elder Scrolls 2: Daggerfall

2007 said:
Planescape: Torment 136
2 Fallout 122
3 Arcanum 90
4 Fallout 2 85
5 BG 2 74
6 Vampire the Masquarade: Bloodlines 60
7 Morrowind 41
8 Gothic 2 39
9 Knights of the Old Republic 2 30
10 Ultima 7 29


2010 said:
1. Fallout 122
2. Planescape:Torment 110
3. Arcanum 68
4. Vampire the Masquerade: Bloodlines 61
5. Fallout 2 59
6. Baldur's Gate II 58
7. Mask of the Betrayer 33
8. Deus Ex 33
9. Morrowind 29
10. Gothic 2 28

Almost the same games every time.
 

Daedalos

Arcane
The Real Fanboy
Joined
Apr 18, 2007
Messages
5,597
Location
Denmark
Let's hope 2014 and 2015 will change up the list..

Wasteland 2, PoE, Age of Decadence, Cyberpunk 2077, Witcher 3 I'm looking in yo general direction!
 

I_am_Ian

Arbiter
Patron
Joined
Feb 16, 2012
Messages
507
Location
The United States of America
Good to see Wizardry 8 finally getting some recognition. The game is underrated. It's a shame that 6&7 will never be near the top of these lists even though they are better than most.
 

Ravel myluv

Learned
Joined
Dec 17, 2013
Messages
117
The points system will stand a good chance of knocking Icewind Dale down. Which is its stated goal, so in that it is a success. But it will also do so at the expense of all the old, obscure, or indie efforts, which won't even have a chance at the top 10. Even if everybody on here who played such a game were to step in and vote a 5er, it won't be enough to compete against the many hundreds of points that the popular games are already well on their way to getting. Particularly so with M&M and Gold Box that have so many titles, which will be splitting their already meager votes.

If everybody who played a game gives it a 5 rating, but it still can't be a best-of RPG, there's a problem in the data.

Yet, that is but the nature of a points system covering a spread where those voting haven't actually experienced everything being voted upon. The points will tend to massively accrue in the hands of the super popular.

Super popular games are so for a reason. Yes it can be tiring to see Fallout 1 and 2, PST in the top forever. But don't they deserve their place?
The amount by which they're winning is probably excessive yes, but the final result will be the same anyway.
If everything is set on an even playing field and they win, great. If the system is set up so an outsider can never win, no matter how great it might be, not good.

And by popular, I also mean Dragon Age and Mass Effect, which were doing quite well comparatively last I checked.

The system is fair to me.
Whatever the system you adopt, it won't make the sales of these games be better than they are, so they will always lose.

Not enough people have played those hidden gems? Well tough shit, but creating a system to improve their votes would also be super biaised.
The only way is to create a competition between those games, excluding the classics.
Actually it's not the only way. There is the dull and time-consuming method of having everyone rate every RPG they played and finding the average score of each game. Every game is then tried on the same field, and if the best RPG one day happens to be an indie, it will score the best, no matter if only 1/1000 of the people that played Dragon Age ever play it. That method is just too large a process for a volunteer data collection system.

And then there is the previous system. While the previous system did weight in favor of games that lots of people have purchased over titles that fewer people have purchased, the points system now in play heavily magnifies that trend. For example, lots of people have purchased Dragon Age, and the game can get 1-5 points from each of those people. Few people have played KOTC, and KOTC can get 1-5 points from those people. KOTC does not have the same range of points available to it that Dragon Age does. With the points multiplier magnifying the popular purchases by a heavy factor, it's not even playing in the same ballpark.

How would that be fair? An obscure title is played by 1 person who grants it a 10/10, and suddenly it's the best RPG ever?
If there are too few votes, it's not representative enough.
 

MicoSelva

backlog digger
Patron
Joined
Sep 10, 2010
Messages
7,511
Location
Arx
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The points system will stand a good chance of knocking Icewind Dale down. Which is its stated goal, so in that it is a success.
Can anyone point me to the thread where this was stated? I missed it, apparently. felipepepe ?
 

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