RPG gameplay elements/habits you don't understand

[DraQ]

I'm confused by anti-grinding players. If you don't want your characters to get more powerful, play an action game or RTS or something.

Go play cookie clicker or something.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

None of the examples you mentioned qualify as grinding, though.

Depends on what you mean. You can "grind" random encounters for XP or just for items (Fallout 2), or you can "grind" sidequests for XP and items (Baldur's Gate 2). Some may call that "farming." Problem with vague terms I guess. I'm more interested in the underlying concept of whether the game should allow player-directed leveling or whether the game should strictly control the player's power level, which I consider bad design but a lot of people are in favor of.

If I say "I want a game with enough free roam content and player-directed leveling so that I can choose how easy or difficult to make it through organic gameplay decisions" that takes a lot more verbiage. Ultimately I'm in favor of giving more decision making power to the player, not less. So I just say I want the game to let me grind. If you just want to quibble over the definition of genre jargon, that's not a useful discussion.

 

[DraQ]

There are people who hyperventilate at the idea of other players "getting too powerful" or whatever. But whenever I see a game advertised as 'no grinding!' I know it will be a challenge-free game.

This word, I don't think it means what you think it means.

 

[Generic-Giant-Spider]

Grinding as a possibility is okay.

Grinding as a necessity can go fuck itself.

 

[Grampy_Bone]

This word, I don't think it means what you think it means.

Do you deny that most modern RPGs, both AAA-level and recent Indie faux-90s fare, are both A, non-grinding, and B, extremely light on challenge?

 

[luj1]

Are there any features/habits in RPGs that you don't understand the appeal of?

• romances
• housing
• mandatory companions
• feature bloat
• voice acting (at least having too much of it)
• cutscenes (same)
• graphics over gameplay

 

[Quillon]

I prefer they don't do companions in FP/TP RPGs anymore especially with the current self-insert culture and how much resources they use on them(goes for party based top down RPGs also but they are party based top down RPGs ) . But if they make them I can't help but finish their content, I am not particularly concerned with them cramping my style, them getting in the way is annoying but usually its fine or there are mods for it. Also I'd rather them get in the way than blatantly teleport around for player/some other convenience.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

I don't get the appeal of having companions in first or third person action RPGs, yet devs keep implementing them and players apparently like it. New Vegas, Skyrim, Fallout 4 all have companions. Elex has companions. Chances are, if you play a modern action RPG there are companions you can recruit to follow you around.

Because they're your friend.

 

[CryptRat]

Recently saw some youtube vids on Fallout games and the guy who talked about them played New Vegas and Fallout 4 with companions following him everywhere. And I just don't get it. Having followers in first person RPGs is lame as fuck, all they do is cramp your style, especially in something as clunky as Bethesda's Fallouts where they only get in your way when you wanna shoot at the enemy.
[...]I'll never understand the appeal of companions in action RPGs.

Not sure I get you, these games indeed suck but the solution to not controlling companions is not to venture alone but to actually control companions in a blobber style.

 

[JarlFrank]

Recently saw some youtube vids on Fallout games and the guy who talked about them played New Vegas and Fallout 4 with companions following him everywhere. And I just don't get it. Having followers in first person RPGs is lame as fuck, all they do is cramp your style, especially in something as clunky as Bethesda's Fallouts where they only get in your way when you wanna shoot at the enemy.
[...]I'll never understand the appeal of companions in action RPGs.

Not sure I get you, these games indeed suck but the solution to not controlling companions is not to venture alone but to actually control companions in a blobber style.

That's a different kind of game then.

I enjoy action RPGs like Elder Scrolls and Gothic. I would never choose to have an AI follower in games like these. I always go solo, even if such a game offers companions, and I don't understand the appeal of having an AI companion follow you around in a 3D action RPG with a focus on exploration. They always get stuck in the geometry when you jump around and climb, walk into your line of fire, break your stealth, etc. The only game of the ones I listed above where they were ok is Elex because they get a jetpack so you don't have to babysit them as much.

The thing I don't get is that first person action RPGs are clearly meant to be a genre where you play solo, yet devs these days always shoehorn companions into these games.

This is comparable to something ridiculous such as making an RTS where you only control one unit... oh wait they made that already and called it MOBA. It's quite expectedly shit.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

and I don't understand the appeal of having an AI companion follow you around in a 3D action RPG with a focus on exploration.

Because exploring with friends is more fun

 

[JarlFrank]

They're brainless AI bots.

 

[Butter]

Playing Skyrim with a companion was an exercise in them constantly standing in doorways and me having to tcl past them, yet that's never happened to me even once in New Vegas. I don't know why there's a difference, but as a result I'm never bothered bringing NV companions along.

 

[V_K]

You can "grind" random encounters for XP or just for items (Fallout 2), or you can "grind" sidequests for XP and items (Baldur's Gate 2). Some may call that "farming." Problem with vague terms I guess.

Nope. The original, non-RPG related, sense of "grind" implies a repetitive, monotonous activity - like e.g. grinding coffee beans in a handmill. Same applies to RPG: you grind when you repeat something (a random encounter, a skillcheck etc.) ad nauseam. The only way you can do that wish sidequests is if they are procedurally generated and endlessly repeatable.

 

[Zanzoken]

It's hard to fully articulate how much I despise Diablo-style loot treadmills, Divinity "item fever", and any other form of rampant itemization. Some key features of this type of design:

- Illogical, randomized item design: Oh look it's a Fine Epic Amulet of Fire Magic and Lockpicking +3. Because that's totally something a person would enchant and find useful.
- Nonsensical item distribution: You looted the aforementioned Amulet off of a giant rat. Where did the rat get this? Why was he carrying it? And how, for that matter?
- Boring, mindless item progression: You just got a new sword. It's a Level 6 which does +2.7% damage, compared to the Level 5 you've been using which only does +2.3% damage. After 50 hours of this, your reward centers are completely numb.
- Artifacts are devalued: You explored the ancient castle of Dickendorf and managed to recover Belenfuck's Sword, a long lost artifact! A few levels later, you loot a Plain Iron Sword off a bandit that has better stats.
- Consumable spam: Wow I am having a hard time in this fight, I better come up with a better strategy pause the game and drink 5 potions in a row so my health is refilled.

I could go on and on. It's beyond me how anyone could enjoy this sort of thing, but people seem to love being buried under an avalanche of trash, regardless of how it hurts the game in other ways and just generally makes little sense.

 

[rusty_shackleford]

A rat stealing shiny things seems kinda logical.

 

[Cyberarmy]

Needless survival elements and shitty crafting.

 

[jungl]

there nothing wrong with escort quests. They fun cause they expose the players vulnerabilities. Make you use valuable spells and resources when you don't want to. Maybe the escort takes up a party slot and now you have to use a 5 man team. Adapting play style to AI teammate is fun.

 

[JarlFrank]

crafting

Fucking crafting, man. I despise this shit. I enjoy some crafting games where the mechanic is the main draw of the game, but when an RPG just tacks it on it fucking sucks.

RPGs with good itemization: explore this dungeon to find the Legendary Sword of Buttfucking +10 after a hard fight against the boss!
RPGs with crafting: collect 5000 pieces of iron ore so you can forge your own sword! Invest skill points in crafting so your professional fighter/wizard/diplomat adventurer character can forge better weapons than life-long blacksmiths!

I'd rather find unique equipment by exploring the game world, rather than collecting hundreds of pieces of generic components.

 

[Wyatt_Derp]

Map markers - Obvious. The point's been made by more people and in better ways than I could, but I just don't like them. Building/collecting/stealing maps or using dialogue hints are much more fun in discovering locations or finishing quests than using a map pointer that all but says 'GO HERE TO DO X'.

Dialogue wheels - A curse upon games. I wish those wheels would roll themselves outta here.

Procedural Content - A lie masking itself as a... new thing. 99% of the time it's just a cycle of a few repeating elements that play themselves out in boring and predictable ways. Procedural shit might have worked in 2000, no so much in 2020. Crafted quests and hand-drawn art might be limited in what they can do, but at least it's usually somewhat original, visceral, and unique to a moment. Content generation doesn't have to be content RE-generation. Wide as an ocean, deep as a puddle, blah blah blah. Procedural content is largely to blame for the creation of that puddle. No Man's Sky might be the best example. I'd rather visit 5 or 6 interesting and different planets than an entire galaxy filled with the same 3 or 4 all named something like 34jdrngdkfjngkdfjhk5t45n34534dinkdinkwhateverthefuck3521.

 

[DraQ]

Do you deny that most modern RPGs, both AAA-level and recent Indie faux-90s fare, are both A, non-grinding, and B, extremely light on challenge?

Have you heard about correlation not implying causation?

If anything grinding (and highly vertical character development) precludes proper challenge because it leads directly to developers being unable to predict player's power level at any given point depending on whether or not they have been grinding and how much. This leads to level scaling and other such fun "innovations".

If there is no grind and character growth is mostly horizontal (learning new tricks rather than getting +%damage and HP) it's much easier to estimate bounds of PC's power and gate stuff a bit to scare off squishy noobs.

Fucking crafting, man. I despise this shit. I enjoy some crafting games where the mechanic is the main draw of the game, but when an RPG just tacks it on it fucking sucks.

RPGs with good itemization: explore this dungeon to find the Legendary Sword of Buttfucking +10 after a hard fight against the boss!
RPGs with crafting: collect 5000 pieces of iron ore so you can forge your own sword! Invest skill points in crafting so your professional fighter/wizard/diplomat adventurer character can forge better weapons than life-long blacksmiths!

I'd rather find unique equipment by exploring the game world, rather than collecting hundreds of pieces of generic components.

That's because crafting is shoehorned into the same role as looting and buying (stealing), which makes for boring redundant shit.

Unique new abilities should open unique new options altering gameplay in unique new ways.

 

[Shackleton]

Well I like grinding, crafting and companions so that must make me some sort of outsider round these parts.

I've ranted about this before, but I do so fucking hate this trend of putting lootable containers everywhere and randomising what's inside of them. At least if I'm grinding away and getting loot at the end I've found the attainment of said loot vaguely engaging. Clicking on another bloody barrel, or chest of drawers or rubbish bin and seeing the crap that's inside of them is the anti-fun for me. 'But Shackleton, you only need to click on them all if you're some sort of OCD autist!' I hear you cry. Well, yes, but 1) I am some sort of OCD autist and 2) if you know the loot is randomised, perhaps this crate will be the one that has the purple axe of awesomeness! Which is another thing I detest in rpg's that aren't diablo-likes; colour coded loot. If you need a colour to tell you if your loot is good, you should have spent more time on your loot system. It's different in clickers that shower you in the stuff because it's a useful initial filter, but in 'serious' RPG's nothing kills immersion more than the bloody white/green/blue/rainbow/snot coloured spectrum of gear.

I've still never completed a playthrough of either D:OS games because of both of these heinous design decisions.

 

[JarlFrank]

If anything grinding (and highly vertical character development) precludes proper challenge because it leads directly to developers being unable to predict player's power level at any given point depending on whether or not they have been grinding and how much. This leads to level scaling and other such fun "innovations".

If there is no grind and character growth is mostly horizontal (learning new tricks rather than getting +%damage and HP) it's much easier to estimate bounds of PC's power and gate stuff a bit to scare off squishy noobs.

That reminds me: I really, really dislike bloat. HP bloat, damage bloat, any kind of bloat. When the main difference between a level 1 enemy and a level 10 enemy is that he has 10 times as many HP and does 10 times as much damage, your game design is shit.

Horizontal systems are a lot more interesting than purely vertical systems. Playing a wizard in D&D isn't just fun because his spells do more damage as he levels up, but because he gets a much larger pool of spells, and most of those spells have wildly different effects. If wizards started out with fireball at level 1 and it just added 1d6 damage per level and that's all they could ever do, wizards would be incredibly boring to play.

Bloat also tends to turn the late game more tedious, because balance inevitably tends to shift towards HP bloating much more than damage, so killing one enemy takes over 30 hits. It also creates scenarios where low level enemies won't even be able to scratch a high level character, so being ambushed by 100 bandits isn't even a threat to a max level char. Lame and boring.

 

[mondblut]

They're brainless AI bots.

That's the best friends we can get.

 

[mondblut]

Growing powerful naturally through doing quests and beating challenging encounters is fun.

Mindlessly trawling through generic filler mob after generic filler mob is tiresome and shit.

Anything that gives you xp is fun. Especially when it takes you ahead of the curve envisioned by sawyers in charge.