Vapourware RPGs that can legitimately be called masterpieces

[jebsmoker]

pls. all hyperbole aside, grimoire fills the niche as a wizardry 6-7 alike extremely well

Did you just compare Grimoire with god-tier Jagged Alliance 2?

no? ja 2 is a tactical crpg. grimoire is a blobber. i don't compare apples to oranges

 

[Lilura]

no? ja 2 is a tactical crpg. grimoire is a blobber. i don't compare apples to oranges

Another non-committal coward.

 

[jebsmoker]

no? ja 2 is a tactical crpg. grimoire is a blobber. i don't compare apples to oranges

Another non-commital coward.

pardon? if you were to say "ja 2 is the greatest tactical crpg ever made" then you'd be right because that's a very specific niche that hasn't been explored outside of a few other games like 7.62 or whatever. some have interesting spins on the formula, but ja 2 is still better in most respects

 

[Lilura]

Would you agree that combat is the most important aspect of an RPG?

 

[jebsmoker]

depends on the core design pillars of the game. torment has dogshit combat but the story-telling carries it forward so i would be happier if torment did away with the combat. ja 2 gets away with having gun porn, good combat, a good plot and funny humor

 

[PrettyDeadman]

Wizardry 7 took 25 years for somebody to match.

2001 (Wizardry 8) - 1992 (Wizardry 7) = 9 years.

On the other hand, Jagged Alliance 2 (1999) has indisputably occupied god-tier alone for 20 years.

1999 (Jagged Allienace 2) - 2003 (Silent Storm) = 4 years.

 

[jebsmoker]

Wizardry 7 took 25 years for somebody to match.

2001 (Wizardry 8) - 1992 (Wizardry 7) = 9 years.

On the other hand, Jagged Alliance 2 (1999) has indisputably occupied god-tier alone for 20 years.

1999 (Jagged Allienace 2) - 2003 (Silent Storm) = 4 years.

maybe? silent storm has some incredible combat that's heightened by the dynamic environmental destruction, but it's also incredibly unbalanced unless if you hunt down a lot of community fixes

 

[Lilura]

1999 (Jagged Allienace 2) - 2003 (Silent Storm) = 4 years.

Maybe you don't know who I am? I recently wrote a retrospective on Silent Storm.

Jagged Alliance 2 destroys it, overall.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

1999 (Jagged Allienace 2) - 2003 (Silent Storm) = 4 years.

Maybe you don't know who I am? I recently wrote a retrospective on Silent Storm.

Jagged Alliance 2 destroys it, overall.

I am familiar with your works and your jagged alliance retrospective (now with silent storm) was as brilliant as ever, but the conclusions you came to are all wrong. Silent Storm absolutely BLASTS jagged alliance 2. The reasons why all attempts to make a sequel to ja2 were a failure is that developers hold the same opinion on ja2 vs ss as you are and try to copy a game which has great sentimental value but ultimately an inferior turn-based tactical game. Having wrong priorities from the start is what dooms all those endevaors.

 

[barghwata]

Would you agree that combat is the most important aspect of an RPG?

Suprisingly..... Roleplaying is the most important aspect of an RPG not combat, it doesn't matter what type of gameplay an RPG has (tactical, action, adventure game etc....) that's beyond the point, what's important is how deep and impactful the character building and progression are, and how much reactivity and player choice the game has to offer, if these things are done through combat or story or anything else is irrelevant as long as they're there.

The reason why many codexers consider Fallout to be a superior RPG to JA2 despite the latter having a much better combat system, is because it falls behind Fallout when it comes to roleplaying and reactivity which is really all that matters in an RPG. Nevertheless JA2 is still an excellent RPG and the best Tactical RPG by far, only slightly approached by Silent Storm and High Calibre 7.62 in the genre.

 

[Makabb]

Nothing comes close to the scope of Daggerfall, that saying, Daggerfall by todays standards is flawed,,,, let's hope the new game by Once Lost will be good.

 

[Verylittlefishes]

Maybe you don't know who I am?

 

[aweigh]

reactivity which is really all that matters in an RPG

If that's all that you truly think matters in RPG design then you'd probably be happier playing adventure games instead.

I prefer when RPGs have good gameplay instead. Reactivity can be a nice bonus, but when devs forget about making each mechanical system play well with each other (combat, exploration, itemization, power curve, encounter design, area design, etc); when devs forget about the core mechanical foundations, then the RPG is a failure, and no amount of "c&c" can save it.

The best reactivity is the one that comes from the core mechanical systems themselves, and it largely has little or nothing to do with dialog trees or branching story state choices.

 

[Makabb]

reactivity which is really all that matters in an RPG

If that's all that you truly think matters in RPG design then you'd probably be happier playing adventure games instead.

I prefer when RPGs have good gameplay instead. Reactivity can be a nice bonus, but when devs forget about making each mechanical system play well with each other (combat, exploration, itemization, power curve, encounter design, area design, etc); when devs forget about the core mechanical foundations, then the RPG is a failure, and no amount of "c&c" can save it.

As always, the best reactivity is the one that comes from the core mechanical systems themselves and largely has absolutely nothing to do with dialog trees or branching story state choices.

but what is an RPG ?

 

[aweigh]

but what is an RPG ?

Wizardry. Ultima. Might & Magic. Pool Of Radiance. Fallout. Knights Of The Chalice. Daggerfall. VTMB.

Take your pick.

 

[Heroic Liberator]

but what is an RPG ?

But what can change the nature of a RPG?

Spoiler

 

[Jason Liang]

Story is what seperates great rpgs and the best rpgs.

Combat can make an rpg excellent, and without good combat an rpg's systems, mechanics, character progression etc... are pointless. It is the glue that holds an rpg together. But combat just needs to pass the functionality threshold (ie not be completely shit like Arcanum or Fallout).

More specifically, combat is an abstraction. This is what seperates turn based rpgs from Diablo or Gauntlet. Appropriate abstraction allows rpg combat to focus on tactics and drama. Only through the filter of abstraction can the essence of combat be savored.

The greatest masterpiece rpgs both use rpgs as a storytelling medium and yet allow you to participate as a player.

 

[Jason Liang]

but what is an RPG ?

But what can change the nature of a RPG?

Spoiler

communism and joysticks, aparently

 

[barghwata]

(combat, exploration, itemization, power curve, encounter design, area design, etc)

I didn't mention any of these things not because i don't consider them to be important but because i consider these things to be the bare minimum, and none of these are specific to RPGs, a lot of genres can do these things just as well, but roleplaying mechanics and reactivity is where RPGs excel obviously.

The best reactivity is the one that comes from the core mechanical systems themselves, and it largely has absolutely nothing to do with dialog trees or branching story state choices.

Also i am not entirely sure why you assumed i meant C&C and dialog tress when i said reactivity, what i meant by reactivity is how well the game reacts to your character build and your actions, this doesn't require dialog trees or any story for that matter.

If that's all that you truly think matters in RPG design then you'd probably be happier playing adventure games instead.

I played a lot of adventure games and none of them even a hold a candle to the type of reactivity games like Fallout or Arcanum have to offer.

 

[Lilura]

I am familiar with your works and your jagged alliance retrospective (now with silent storm) was as brilliant as ever, but the conclusions you came to are all wrong. Silent Storm absolutely BLASTS jagged alliance 2. The reasons why all attempts to make a sequel to ja2 were a failure is that developers hold the same opinion on ja2 vs ss as you are and try to copy a game which has great sentimental value but ultimately an inferior turn-based tactical game. Having wrong priorities from the start is what dooms all those endevaors.

You have no argument as to why Silent Storm "BLASTS" Jagged Alliance 2, though.

I have. And I've written multi-part retrospectives on both. Thus, I have no bias.

In order to refute my claim, you need to take me to task on my criticisms of Silent Storm's grave flaws and jank, which Jagged Alliance 2 does not have (but which ToEE also has).

The more I write of my 10 section analysis on both of their combat systems, the more I realize the greatness of JA2, and the more I realize how much of a missed opportunity SS was (for example, by not having player-assignable initial positioning upon entry to combat sectors, by not allowing dual-weapons/ambidexterity, and by relegating clearly viewable color-coded cover to estimations based on shadows and geometry).

 

[laclongquan]

IN an effort to drive Codex to drink (to DRINK! I tell ya!)

One of the masterpieces in game you could care to taste is :ambientmusic:

Legend of Mana.

Disregard the most interesting item craft aspect of all games.

Disregard one of the most ambient music theme in all games.

Disregard the masterful art style in the whole game.

Combined in a complete package, Legend of Mana is much more than the sum of all its parts.

It is a Master Piece.

 

[aweigh]

i consider these things to be the bare minimum

Not sure how to interpret that. Are you saying it's easy to make systems? Then why do most rpgs have bad mechanical systems? It's been 40 years since Wizardry came out and yet a lot of RPGs coming out today have less depth and have worse gameplay. It's not easy to make these things, which is why I don't know how to interpret them being considered "bare minimum". IMO It is a much worthier task to make a great-playing RPG.

not specific to the genre

Lots of things are not specific to RPGs. Even the much-vaunted c&c meme isn't specific to RPGs, ironically.

Also i am not entirely sure why you assumed i meant C&C and dialog tress when i said reactivity, what i meant by reactivity is how well the game reacts to your character build and your actions, this doesn't require dialog trees or any story for that matter.

Yup. Fully agreed. Sorry for assuming that, btw, just too many years dealing with codex cargo cultists.

I played a lot of adventure games and none of them even a hold a candle to the type of reactivity games like Fallout or Arcanum have to offer.

Off-the-cuff I'd say that's mostly because adventure games and CYOA's don't have combat mechanics; one of the mainr easons RPGs can so easily excel in so-called "reactivity" (really bad term for this sort of design talk, it can literally mean anything) is because of the interplay that systems can have when combat, character building and exploration come together, and adventure games lack the first two.

 

[Lilura]

The reason why many codexers consider Fallout to be a superior RPG to JA2 despite the latter having a much better combat system, is because it falls behind Fallout when it comes to roleplaying and reactivity which is really all that matters in an RPG.

aweigh refuted your other assertion solidly, so I'll take this part.

Let me tell you a secret: role-playing a singular protagonist promotes storyfaggotry and shitty systems. Give me an impersonal party of 18 any fucking day of the week.

And here's another secret: JA2 has more reactivity than Fallout: ending FMV slideshows are NOT reactivity. Indeed, that is pure shit. If it doesn't happen in-game it doesn't count. And this coming from someone who wrote about Fallout's reactivity and considers it 2nd-ranked all-time below Jagged Alliance 2.

 

[Makabb]

I played a lot of adventure games and none of them even a hold a candle to the type of reactivity games like Fallout or Arcanum have to offer.

Funny, because they are essentialy interactive movies.

There is no real 'role playing' game, the only 'role playing' can come from tabletop where you have a dungeon master and you can -literally- do anything you can come up with.

 

[barghwata]

i consider these things to be the bare minimum

Not sure how to interpret that. Are you saying it's easy to make systems? Then why do most rpgs have bad mechanical systems? It's been 40 years since Wizardry came out and yet a lot of RPGs coming out today have less depth and have worse gameplay. It's not easy to make these things, which is why I don't know how to interpret them being considered "bare minimum". IMO It is a much worthier task to make a great-playing RPG.

I admit that's bad wording on my part, what i meant to say is all of these things (combat, exploration, itemization, power curve, encounter design, area design, etc) are great but not specific to RPGs therefore shouldn't be entirely focused on at the cost of what i think is more important which are roleplaying mechanics and reactivity, you only need to get those things to a point where they're decent but what matters most is roleplaying, Fallout's combat system for example isn't really that great, stealth is way too basic and the encounter design could've been a lot better in my opinion but they're just good enough to do the job, what makes Fallout the excellent RPG it is isn't any of these things, it's the astounding amount of roleplaying opportunities, different solutions to quests and the amount of detail put in how the game reacts to different character builds but of course that dooesn't mean the things you mentioned aren't important, i just think they have to be accompanied by good roleplaying mechanics to actually matter in an RPG.

Yup. Fully agreed.

Glad you agree.

Off-the-cuff I'd say that's mostly because adventure games and CYOA's don't have combat mechanics; one of the mainr easons RPGs can so easily excel in so-called "reactivity" (really bad term for this sort of design talk, it can literally mean anything) is because of the interplay that systems can have when combat and exploration come together.

I don't know about that, i think as long as the game reacts really well to your character build it doesn't matter what kind of gameplay the game has (as long as it isn't shit of course), Disco Elysium and PS:T despite having little to no combat both react very well to different character builds and to the player's actions and combat isn't necessary to achieve that. However i agree with you that RPGs that can pull off all of these things together (exploration, story,combat etc.....) and balance them out are generally much better and more entertaining since the variety of the gameplay keeps a game interesting.