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Savegame limitations?

Should there be any savegame limitations in RPG games?


  • Total voters
    131
  • Poll closed .

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
Messages
5,419
Forced Ironman mode generally spoils RPGs. Instead of challenging and interesting fights, you have to stick to boring fights you are guaranteed to win.
This is only true when all you have are fights. To me it would be interesting if fighting wouldn't be the main (or the only) mode of operation. RPG is the genre that can achieve this. But this requires looking past combat and more into how it is possible for the player to interact with the world at large, so they can do more interesting/creative things to accomplish their goals.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Rusty I am still expecting examples of "save & quit" in modern games. And Just to be clear: when I think "save & quit" I don't mean that you restart form the last checkpoint/save point . In this case it is just a checkpoint with another name. With proper "save and exit" I mean that I restart exactly in the point where I quitted.
Right off the top of my head?
Kingdom come deliverance, fallout 4 survival mode, essentially every roguelike, ATOM rpg, Mount & blade.
 

Nifft Batuff

Prophet
Joined
Nov 14, 2018
Messages
3,578
Rusty I am still expecting examples of "save & quit" in modern games. And Just to be clear: when I think "save & quit" I don't mean that you restart form the last checkpoint/save point . In this case it is just a checkpoint with another name. With proper "save and exit" I mean that I restart exactly in the point where I quitted.
Right off the top of my head?
Kingdom come deliverance, fallout 4 survival mode, essentially every roguelike, ATOM rpg, Mount & blade.
Yes these are the games I was thinking too, but, as I said, these games already implement a save everywhere feature, with the exception of roguelikes (I rather say that a huge number of modern roguelikes, including souls-likes, don't have a save & quit feature, however). You don't implement a "save & quit" feature if you don't have planned a save everywhere feature in the game from the start.

The truth is that the overwhelming number of modern games just uses simplified versions of save points and check points, even if this not make sense within the game itself (not every game need to be an arcade coin-ops game). In the past PC games, in contrast to console games, distinguished themselves in having a proper save system, since there was no memory limits. Now memory limits make no sense even for consoles, but by inertia, laziness and general fake conception of "muh difficulty", a proper save-system where you can restore exactly at the point where you left the game is becoming rarer and rarer, a white fly. Modern games regressed to the check points of old ages.

Some people think that the reason rely to the fact that modern games are more complex than in the past and this translates in more time needed to develop a proper save system. I don't know exactly why this is happening. But you see this trend clearly in indie games and in simple game genres (like in adventure point & click games). Another reason could be that kids nowadays doesn't know how to manual save any more and developers want to streamline even this part of the game. You see this trend also in modern remaster/remakes of old games. For example in the original Crysis you can save everywhere. In the remaster they removed manual saves and introduced checkpoints.

In this context it is funny that there are so many fanatical religious people (à la Rusty), that looks like they are in a crusade against "savescumming" (obvioulsy "savescumming" has touched them somewhere). And like every fanatical religious, they want to extend their personal views to other people and want to remove the possibility to save in all the games for everyone.
 

Saduj

Arcane
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
2,584
Many times you don't have to even be trying particularly hard to accidentally optimize away all the challenge and fun in poorly designed games. Have you never played a game where you've accidentally stumbled into a broken build just by picking obviously synergistic abilities? It's annoying and poor design to present a player with a game feature (including a quicksave system) that, when actually used to its fullest extent, makes the game less enjoyable. Let me repeat again: just because you can avoid using a particular mechanic doesn't mean it's good design.

I've played games where I accidentally picked one skill that makes everything trivial. In Divine Divinity, the trap skill allows you to deploy one or more metal scorpions that can and will clear entire dungeons for you. For most of the game, these scorpions will be much more powerful than your character. And they aren't even hard to find or expensive. Once I realized how boring they make the game, I stopped using them. I agree that this is bad design. But it wasn't hard to stop using them. And that was a feature I invested resources into when building my character. Having a quicksave feature isn't something I chose or invested in and it is easy not to abuse it. Unlike broken skills or abilities, it is not something you invest resources into.

If you cannot see how games would be designed differently in the absence of quicksave after everything I said, then I have little else to say on that point. I'll give you one more hint though: compare roguelikes with crpgs and see how they differ and how that relates to their save systems.

Roguelikes are their own genre and they are specifically designed expecting the player to start over. Most have no C&C and rely on procedurally generated design to avoid repetition. A single successful run typically has much less content than a CRPG. They basically simplify and randomize their content in order get around the lack of saving forcing players to repeat content. And most of them still feel repetitive after a while anyway. Traditional CRPGs have more complex content but there is only one version of it and I'm not interested in repeating things for no other reason than I couldn't save when I wanted to stop playing.

Once the rules are locked in, however, everything should be fair game. Maybe you are the exception, but in general the player naturally wants to use the rules of the game to his advantage. Underpowered/trap options are bad, but there is at least a modicum of enjoyment in being able to see those ahead of time and avoid them. What's not enjoyable and is in fact poor design is when using the tools as presented results in a pathetically easy or tediously repetitive experience. In a quicksave game, the rule of the game is that you can easily test every outcome. The natural incentive is to do so and find the best result. The practical effect is that the player does a lot of tedious quickloading and dialogue repetition and never need suffer the consequences of his actions.

Our disagreement is over whether all or most players view quicksave as game system that should be fully exploited for best outcomes. I don't play that way and I don't want to be inconvenienced because some people have such a lack of self control that they MUST ruin their game for themselves if presented the option.
 

Pentium

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To reiterate, just because you can refuse to use a broken mechanic doesn't mean the mechanic is well designed.

I'm having a hard time believing there are people seriously propositioning that a save system is just another gameplay mechanic like any other. I've never in my life seen this proposition put forward before.

And I'm not going to go along with it, sorry.
I don't think that's what's being proposed here. That quote of WhiteShark has clearly a completely different context. But sure, this is forums, why would you need to understand written text?

What we say is merely that save system might be a part of the game design. Surprise - many developers agree.
 
Joined
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Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Our disagreement is over whether all or most players view quicksave as game system that should be fully exploited for best outcomes. I don't play that way and I don't want to be inconvenienced because some people have such a lack of self control that they MUST ruin their game for themselves if presented the option.
Imagine thinking RPGs aren't designed around players cheating when it's put right infront of their faces and they're told to use it
 

Zibniyat

Arcane
Joined
Jun 22, 2014
Messages
6,536
I don't think that's what's being proposed here. That quote of WhiteShark has clearly a completely different context. But sure, this is forums, why would you need to understand written text?

What we say is merely that save system might be a part of the game design. Surprise - many developers agree.

Game design sure. Game mechanic whose purpose is to be used as any other mechanic to progress through the game? No way.

Yes, developers can create a particular save system to elevate difficulty or discourage save scumming. For example, I've played Exiled Kingdoms on the second-highest difficulty, and there you could not save in dungeons; you could save, but it meant quitting the game at the same time, otherwise if you die in said dungeon then you have to reload from the beginning of it. I thought of it as very clever and rather good save system.

But whilst having it in mind, developers surely don't account for it as being used as a game mechanic. Or rather abused. I suppose if they care about providing a more curated experience, then they'll make the system difficult to abuse, as the example with Exiled Kingdoms shows. Or will limit the number of saves available or similar. That's fine too. But ironically, it means they go out of their way to prevent save system being (ab)used as a game mechanic, not create a particular mechanic having save system as its core.

~~~

Related to this whole discussion is also my (personal) tendency to save before any major event, for archival purposes. There are games for which I wish to have many saves of in case I want to visit a particular area at a particular time that becomes unavailable later on (like the Paradise in Oblivion while we're at it), or to revisit a particular conversation I had, or rewatch a certain in-game or cinematic cutscene. While in actuality it is rare that I revisit these things, during the play I always envision myself in the future as having a desire to revisit them, so in practice I end up having many save files for this purpose.
 

Saduj

Arcane
Joined
Aug 26, 2012
Messages
2,584
Our disagreement is over whether all or most players view quicksave as game system that should be fully exploited for best outcomes. I don't play that way and I don't want to be inconvenienced because some people have such a lack of self control that they MUST ruin their game for themselves if presented the option.
Imagine thinking RPGs aren't designed around players cheating when it's put right infront of their faces and they're told to use it

Imagine thinking there is a logical argument made in your post….

Yes, save systems are not secret or hidden. Very good. Not sure what you think that proves…
 

WhiteShark

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滅びてゆく世界
Game design sure. Game mechanic whose purpose is to be used as any other mechanic to progress through the game? No way.
Feature, mechanic, whatever you want to call it, it is undeniable that it is a system in place for progressing through the game. If you didn't use the save system, you would have to restart the game from scratch everytime you died. Assuming you aren't playing a roguelike, this would be quite contrary to the developer's intentions. When you want a different outcome from a situation, you quickload - this is what the developer expects and designs around. It is his intention that you use the save system to progress through the game.

Yes, developers can create a particular save system to elevate difficulty or discourage save scumming. For example, I've played Exiled Kingdoms on the second-highest difficulty, and there you could not save in dungeons; you could save, but it meant quitting the game at the same time, otherwise if you die in said dungeon then you have to reload from the beginning of it. I thought of it as very clever and rather good save system.

But whilst having it in mind, developers surely don't account for it as being used as a game mechanic. Or rather abused. I suppose if they care about providing a more curated experience, then they'll make the system difficult to abuse, as the example with Exiled Kingdoms shows. Or will limit the number of saves available or similar. That's fine too. But ironically, it means they go out of their way to prevent save system being (ab)used as a game mechanic, not create a particular mechanic having save system as its core.
These developers go out of their way to limit saves because they realize the power of saving as a mechanic. This is obviously because they see quicksaving as an abusable game mechanic that makes desirable outcomes too easy to achieve for the player.

Imagine you had an ability in a game to rewind time and redo a turn, and this ability was unlimited. That would be a game mechanic. The developer would have implemented it with the idea that the player uses it to achieve his aims. Quicksave/quickload is just a more universal form of that.

Related to this whole discussion is also my (personal) tendency to save before any major event, for archival purposes. There are games for which I wish to have many saves of in case I want to visit a particular area at a particular time that becomes unavailable later on (like the Paradise in Oblivion while we're at it), or to revisit a particular conversation I had, or rewatch a certain in-game or cinematic cutscene. While in actuality it is rare that I revisit these things, during the play I always envision myself in the future as having a desire to revisit them, so in practice I end up having many save files for this purpose.
This doesn't seem to matter much since you openly admit that you rarely make use of it. Even so, if it was that important to you, you could simply back up your persistent save file outside of the game itself for archival purposes in a game without quicksave. That would be a win-win: you get your archival saves but the game can still be designed around a more interesting save system than quicksave.
 

Shaki

Arbiter
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Dec 22, 2018
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Hyperborea
But whilst having it in mind, developers surely don't account for it as being used as a game mechanic. Or rather abused. I suppose if they care about providing a more curated experience, then they'll make the system difficult to abuse, as the example with Exiled Kingdoms shows. Or will limit the number of saves available or similar. That's fine too. But ironically, it means they go out of their way to prevent save system being (ab)used as a game mechanic, not create a particular mechanic having save system as its core.


Of course developers account for savescumming. But instead of creating systems to combat it, they just adapted their games to cater to savescumming crowd, which is one of the main reasons for the decline of gaming.

Take what Josh Sawyer said:

Take something like the classic spell Disintegrate from A/D&D. In older editions, this was a total win/loss spell. If the target failed the save, it died, flat out. People effectively used this as an effective degenerate tactic against many difficult enemies in Infinity Engine games. The first spell cast would be Disintegrate. If the target made its save, the player would just reload and try again.

With Disintegrate reworked as a spell that does a large amount of damage on a failed save and a decent amount of damage on a successful save, it's no longer an all-or-nothing spell that encourages save scumming. The effects are still variable, the results of the save still matter, but it's one check that's normalized with many others during combat. The more the randomized checks of combat are normalized, the more the player's specific character strategies and tactics matter.

Problem: Savescummers abused the OHKO spells to reload boss fights infinitely until they instawin an encounter, ruining their experience in the process.
Solution: Rework iconic and interesting spells, to instead be one of the hundreds of the same, boring "min dmg - max dmg" spells.

This is modern gamedev in a nutshell. Their answer to some retards savescumming like crazy and ruining the game for themselves, is to instead preemptively ruin the game for everyone, treat the whole playerbase like retards and adjust the design accordingly.


While the save systems like one in KCD etc, are better answer to savescumming than just making the game retarded like in above example, they are still solutions to something that is not a problem, but instead a much needed feature. Having the game able to be ruined by savescumming, is a great way to ensure that dumbfucks will ruin it for themselves, then move on to instead play call of duty or something, instead of polluting the RPG genre with their presence.


Save systems were never a problem, retards abusing it and ruining the games for themselves were never a problem, devs designing their games to cater to those retards, however, are a problem.
 
Joined
Jun 24, 2019
Messages
697
Dark Souls save system is more like Dragon Quest, when you die you keep your equipment and experience but you go back in progress and suffer some penalty. Very different than, for example: reloading a save of Baldur's Gate 2 and having to redo all the cutscenes, loot and boring shit.

Not to mention you can't soft-lock yourself in Dark Souls, but you can easily soft-lock yourself in a CRPG and having restart the game. Like i said before, i tried a non-savescum run of Icewind Dale and i runned out of money to revive my characters and had to restart the game. Not to mention all the tedious inventory management, just unplayable, so i gave up of Iron man run in Icewind Dale. And that's pretty much the experience with almost every CRPG: costs too much to revive your characters, you cannot farm gold easily as in a JRPG and sometimes the game do not even let you revive your characters until later on.
 
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WhiteShark

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滅びてゆく世界
Save systems were never a problem, retards abusing it and ruining the games for themselves were never a problem, devs designing their games to cater to those retards, however, are a problem.
This is a silly conclusion. Save systems are bound to influence both game design and gameplay, and they always have. If developers embrace poor design decisions because of a particular save system, then perhaps the save system was at fault to begin with.

Not to mention you can't soft-lock yourself in Dark Souls, but you can easily soft-lock yourself in a CRPG and having restart the game. Like i said before, i tried a non-savescum run of Icewind Dale and i runned out of money to revive my characters and had to restart the game. Not to mention all the tedious inventory management, just unplayable, so i gave up of Iron man run in Icewind Dale. And that's pretty much the experience with almost every CRPG: costs too much to revive your characters, you cannot farm gold easily as in a JRPG and sometimes the game do not even let you revive your characters until later on.
This is proof that developers of games with quicksave systems expect you to use it without reservation, e.g. savescumming.
 

Harthwain

Magister
Joined
Dec 13, 2019
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5,419
Feature, mechanic, whatever you want to call it, it is undeniable that it is a system in place for progressing through the game. If you didn't use the save system, you would have to restart the game from scratch everytime you died. Assuming you aren't playing a roguelike, this would be quite contrary to the developer's intentions. When you want a different outcome from a situation, you quickload - this is what the developer expects and designs around. It is his intention that you use the save system to progress through the game.
I wonder... What if the saving system is just there due to convenience and the developer makes you win the entire game without dying ever, because it's the way how most games are made (you have to succeed. Always), so it became the norm?

Also, I do know there are some developers who don't take the saving system into the account, because they don't think it is worth the effort to try and stop the player from being "flawless". Developers of Battle Brothers said as much - the ironman was added later on, because some people wanted official mode and it wasn't that hard to implement, while the game itself is designed around the idea of player losing mercenaries.

Honestly, I wish there were more games where you aren't expected to win every time and make losing part of their mechanic. Usually they end up being more creative, because they have to deal with loss in some fashion.
 
Joined
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Codex Year of the Donut
Honestly, I wish there were more games where you aren't expected to win every time and make losing part of their mechanic. Usually they end up being more creative, because they have to deal with loss in some fashion.
won't happen as long as savescummers cling to their cheating habits
 

mondblut

Arcane
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Ingrija
Problem: Savescummers abused the OHKO spells to reload boss fights infinitely until they instawin an encounter, ruining their experience in the process.

You don't get to say what of ours we have "ruined". You silly peons will never know the joy of instagibbing the final boss with a single cast spell... especially if takes a hundred of reloads to achieve.

You deserve sawyers and sawyers deserve you.
 

Shaki

Arbiter
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This is a silly conclusion. Save systems are bound to influence both game design and gameplay, and they always have. If developers embrace poor design decisions because of a particular save system, then perhaps the save system was at fault to begin with.


If you can ruin a game for yourself by using Cheat Engine and boosting all your stats to 999999, does that mean that the choice of open platform is at fault, and games should be stopped being produced for PCs, and instead only released on closed platforms like consoles, so retards would have a harder time ruining their playthroughs by cheating? Or maybe all games should be in always-online mode to prevent that?

Or maybe, you just shouldn't blame the system, for idiots misusing it and ruining the experience for themselves?

Devs starting to treat their playerbase like morons, and making games easier, more casual, and adjusted for savescumming, is the core reason that caused the decline of the RPG genre. It's impossible to produce a good game, if you produce it with idiots in mind as your target audience.
 

anvi

Prophet
Village Idiot
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Yeah who needs savegames when your health regenerates like a radioactive lizard.
 

Shaki

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If you can ruin a game for yourself by using Cheat Engine and boosting all your stats to 999999,
wasn't aware that cheat engine is included with the game itself
glad we agree that abusing savegames is cheating tho

Save system is purely a tool to save your progress, and should be treated as independent from the core game. Just as the system you play the game on, is a tool to run it. You can use both tools to cheat and ruin your experience, doesn't mean that developers should have their games cater to cheaters. RPGs should be designed purely by assuming that your playerbase doesn't cheat, and if they do, that's their own problem if they ruin the experience for themselves.

That being said, I have nothing AGAINST anti-savescum systems. I just think it's pointless, and waste of work - Save systems that allow you to ruin your experience through savescumming, make retards filter themselves. Systems that discourage savescumming, usually just prevent majority of same retards from even trying them. I don't cheat, so end result for me is exactly the same. But as long as the underlying game is good and not made with retards in mind, I don't care if they spend some extra devtime on what is imho pointless system.
 

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