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Savegame limitations?

Should there be any savegame limitations in RPG games?


  • Total voters
    131
  • Poll closed .
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
If you can ruin a game for yourself by using Cheat Engine and boosting all your stats to 999999,
wasn't aware that cheat engine is included with the game itself
glad we agree that abusing savegames is cheating tho

Save system is purely a tool to save your progress, and should be treated as independent from the core game. Just as the system you play the game on, is a tool to run it. You can use both tools to cheat and ruin your experience, doesn't mean that developers should have their games cater to cheaters. RPGs should be designed purely by assuming that your playerbase doesn't cheat, and if they do, that's their own problem if they ruin the experience for themselves.

That being said, I have nothing AGAINST anti-savescum systems. I just think it's pointless, and waste of work - Save systems that allow you to ruin your experience through savescumming, make retards filter themselves. Systems that discourage savescumming, usually just prevent majority of same retards from even trying them. I don't cheat, so end result for me is exactly the same. But as long as the underlying game is good and not made with retards in mind, I don't care if they spend some extra devtime on what is imho pointless system.
I agree, save systems are independent from games which is why all games should autosave constantly. No going back to some unspecified point in time where you took a snapshot, you start off right where you last ended.
 

Shaki

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If you can ruin a game for yourself by using Cheat Engine and boosting all your stats to 999999,
wasn't aware that cheat engine is included with the game itself
glad we agree that abusing savegames is cheating tho

Save system is purely a tool to save your progress, and should be treated as independent from the core game. Just as the system you play the game on, is a tool to run it. You can use both tools to cheat and ruin your experience, doesn't mean that developers should have their games cater to cheaters. RPGs should be designed purely by assuming that your playerbase doesn't cheat, and if they do, that's their own problem if they ruin the experience for themselves.

That being said, I have nothing AGAINST anti-savescum systems. I just think it's pointless, and waste of work - Save systems that allow you to ruin your experience through savescumming, make retards filter themselves. Systems that discourage savescumming, usually just prevent majority of same retards from even trying them. I don't cheat, so end result for me is exactly the same. But as long as the underlying game is good and not made with retards in mind, I don't care if they spend some extra devtime on what is imho pointless system.
I agree, save systems are independent from games which is why all games should autosave constantly. No going back to some unspecified point in time where you took a snapshot, you start off right where you last ended.


Sure, assuming there is no bugs that can lock your playthrough, savegame corruption problems, etc. then that's the best way to do it.
 

mondblut

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ruining their experience in the process.
ruining the game for themselves
dumbfucks will ruin it for themselves
retards abusing it and ruining the games for themselves

If you can ruin a game for yourself
ruining their playthroughs
ruining the experience for themselves?

ruin your experience
they ruin the experience for themselves.
allow you to ruin your experience

Fascinating, do continue on.

In fact, it already sounds like a lyrics to some progressive antifa punk song. Just add d-beat and we're set.
 

Shaki

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ruining their experience in the process.
ruining the game for themselves
dumbfucks will ruin it for themselves
retards abusing it and ruining the games for themselves

If you can ruin a game for yourself
ruining their playthroughs
ruining the experience for themselves?

ruin your experience
they ruin the experience for themselves.
allow you to ruin your experience

Fascinating, do continue on.

In fact, it already sounds like a lyrics to some progressive antifa punk song. Just add d-beat and we're set.


Great idea, you would have something to listen to while you repeatedly savescum the same encounter and still pretend you're not a casual peasant. Nothing helps with numbing the pain of insecurity more than some funky music.
 

mondblut

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Great idea, you would have something to listen to while you repeatedly savescum the same encounter and still pretend you're not a casual peasant. Nothing helps with numbing the pain of insecurity more than some funky music.

Seethe :smug:
 

fork

Guest
Savegame limitations are always better than no savegame limitations if done right, i.e. if they're integrated into the game design. The best examples are ink ribbons in the classic Resident Evil games and continuous saving in the Dark Souls games. Both saving systems add tension but not tedium, thus making the games more enjoyable.
 

mondblut

Arcane
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Great idea, you would have something to listen to while you repeatedly savescum the same encounter and still pretend you're not a casual peasant. Nothing helps with numbing the pain of insecurity more than some funky music.

Seethe :smug:

Add more smug emojis and memewords, for maximum epic troll teenager vibe

That's two posts without complaining about someone ruining their experience even once. What happened?
 

WhiteShark

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Save system is purely a tool to save your progress, and should be treated as independent from the core game. Just as the system you play the game on, is a tool to run it. You can use both tools to cheat and ruin your experience, doesn't mean that developers should have their games cater to cheaters. RPGs should be designed purely by assuming that your playerbase doesn't cheat, and if they do, that's their own problem if they ruin the experience for themselves.
If you can ruin a game for yourself by using Cheat Engine and boosting all your stats to 999999, does that mean that the choice of open platform is at fault, and games should be stopped being produced for PCs, and instead only released on closed platforms like consoles, so retards would have a harder time ruining their playthroughs by cheating? Or maybe all games should be in always-online mode to prevent that?

Or maybe, you just shouldn't blame the system, for idiots misusing it and ruining the experience for themselves?
It is possible to cheat on any platform and even always-online games aren't immune. The key difference is that cheats are not provided within the game itself. A player should be able to safely assume that any mechanic or feature provided by the developer in the game itself was intended for use and will not be detrimental to the experience. Developers, for their part, generally design based on the mechanics they have provided to the player. If they don't design around those mechanics, it's bad design.

It has already been demonstrated that developers of games with quicksave systems design around said system. The exceptions could be said to be even worse since they don't account for quicksave in their design but use it anyway.

Devs starting to treat their playerbase like morons, and making games easier, more casual, and adjusted for savescumming, is the core reason that caused the decline of the RPG genre. It's impossible to produce a good game, if you produce it with idiots in mind as your target audience.
Developers adjust for savescumming because they expect you to savescum. They expect you to savescum because they gave you the tool that enables savescumming within the game itself. If they do not design around savescumming but give you quicksave anyway, then they further incentivize savescumming because it will be even more effective for achieving the player's desired outcomes.

For those of us who agree that savescumming is detrimental to both gameplay and game design, there should be no qualms about replacing it with a limited save system. It has already been demonstrated repeatedly that limited saving does not mean unnecessarily lost progress. If one desires to archive their saves, they can always do that outside of the game itself. For those who wish to savescum anyway, they can do the same.
 

0wca

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Don't understand why this is a problem. Have it as an option, it's usually called 'Ironman' in most games. Let everyone play how they want. I don't understand this need by developers to force players to play how they want. You should recommend how it should be played and that's it.
 

WhiteShark

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Don't understand why this is a problem. Have it as an option, it's usually called 'Ironman' in most games. Let everyone play how they want. I don't understand this need by developers to force players to play how they want. You should recommend how it should be played and that's it.
I'm fine with this, except that the developer will still be designing primarily around one mode or the other. If they want to provide a savescumming mode for people like mondblut, fine, but they should design with the ironman mode in mind because it's more interesting.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
I savescum whenever I like. Especially in the games that try to prevent savescumming. Seethe.

The good old copy your savegame out of the folder before you die method of beating roguelikes still works most of the time.

Save limitations are retarded, just add in an optional ironman mode like Battle Brothers or Mount and Blade, that only allow you to save when you exit. Everyone else can use normal save everywhere instead.

If you now try to argue "but then most normal people would savescum, and we have to protect them from savescumming!" you're the same kind of retard who argues for a quest compass because otherwise some people might miss content.

I don't savescum but I hate save limitations. I don't wanna replay ten minutes of the same content I just went through just because I died at the boss and the checkpoint is ten minutes back.
I wanna attempt that seemingly impossible leap across a crevice, being 99% sure that I won't make it. If I die, I reload. If I make it, I will be happy for having found a cool little secret.
In a game with forced save limitations, I wouldn't even make the attempt. I always play it safe in games like these in order to protect my progress and prevent having to replay long stretches of the level.

With quicksave available anytime, I can just derp around and do fun shit.
 

Shaki

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A player should be able to safely assume that any mechanic or feature provided by the developer in the game itself was intended for use and will not be detrimental to the experience. Developers, for their part, generally design based on the mechanics they have provided to the player. If they don't design around those mechanics, it's bad design.

I have to disagree on principle, because that whole paragraph sounds dangerously close to PoE design philosophy. "Players are making shitty builds and having bad experience because of it, therefore we have to dumb down stats to the point where they barely matter and any build is viable and not detrimental to the experience". This is an approach that I can't agree with. Good games provide you tools to shape your own experience, and allow you to face the consequences of misusing those tools and making bad choices.

This is a principle applied to game design, but can apply just as well to accompanying save system. I just don't see the point of spending devtime to prevent people from doing something obviously stupid. If they fuck up and have a bad time because of it, who cares? They stop playing the game? Good riddance.


Developers adjust for savescumming because they expect you to savescum. They expect you to savescum because they gave you the tool that enables savescumming within the game itself. If they do not design around savescumming but give you quicksave anyway, then they further incentivize savescumming because it will be even more effective for achieving the player's desired outcomes.

When those systems were created, they didn't expect you to savescum. That's why I mentioned the OHKO spells earlier. They were included because they are a fun mechanic, and the possibility of morons to ruin their fun by savescumming 1000 times to bypass every boss encounter, didn't occur to the devs back then, because why the fuck would anyone do this?

Modern gamedevs, know from experience that people indeed are dumb enough to do this, but instead of ignoring it and letting dumb people be dumb and filter themselves, they decided they need to save them by adjusting the game, and in the process making it worse for people who do not savescum.

For those of us who agree that savescumming is detrimental to both gameplay and game design, there should be no qualms about replacing it with a limited save system. It has already been demonstrated repeatedly that limited saving does not mean unnecessarily lost progress. If one desires to archive their saves, they can always do that outside of the game itself. For those who wish to savescum anyway, they can do the same.

I'm mostly talking about save systems in a vacuum, but looking at the reality, I can somewhat agree with you. As I said, in a perfect world, devs would just simply ignore idiots misusing the system, and wouldn't let them have any impact on the game design itself. But of course there is no perfect world, and since they seem hell-bent on saving savescummers from themselves, straight up preventing savescumming is indeed an infinitely better choice than designing the game around it. So yeah, realistically speaking, I can agree that pushing for ironman/limited saves everywhere, is probably the smarter choice than defending free saving, if we want good games in the future.
 

Pentium

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If you now try to argue "but then most normal people would savescum, and we have to protect them from savescumming!" you're the same kind of retard who argues for a quest compass because otherwise some people might miss content.
What's retarded here is your analogy. If you're against limitations, that's fine but don't give us any fucking lame sophistries.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Me, playing Morrowind: "I wonder if I can kill Caius Cosades, my main questgiver."
whacks the guy
With this character's death, the thread of prophecy is severed. Restore a saved game to restore the weave of fate, or persist in the doomed world you have created.
"Ok cool. I like that this game allows me to kill essential NPCs. Now lemme just reload my quicksave and continue to play on normally."

If Morrowind had a limited save system:
"I wonder if I can kill Caius Cosades, my main questgiver."
whacks the guy
With this character's death, the thread of prophecy is severed. You can't restore a saved game so if you wanna continue the main quest you'll have to restart from the beginning. LMAO.
"Fuck this shit I quit!"
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Me, playing Morrowind: "I wonder if I can kill Caius Cosades, my main questgiver."
whacks the guy
With this character's death, the thread of prophecy is severed. Restore a saved game to restore the weave of fate, or persist in the doomed world you have created.
"Ok cool. I like that this game allows me to kill essential NPCs. Now lemme just reload my quicksave and continue to play on normally."

If Morrowind had a limited save system:
"I wonder if I can kill Caius Cosades, my main questgiver."
whacks the guy
With this character's death, the thread of prophecy is severed. You can't restore a saved game so if you wanna continue the main quest you'll have to restart from the beginning. LMAO.
"Fuck this shit I quit!"
choice and consequence?
sounds like incline to me
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
Patron
Joined
Jan 4, 2007
Messages
33,136
Location
KA.DINGIR.RA.KI
Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Me, playing Morrowind: "I wonder if I can kill Caius Cosades, my main questgiver."
whacks the guy
With this character's death, the thread of prophecy is severed. Restore a saved game to restore the weave of fate, or persist in the doomed world you have created.
"Ok cool. I like that this game allows me to kill essential NPCs. Now lemme just reload my quicksave and continue to play on normally."

If Morrowind had a limited save system:
"I wonder if I can kill Caius Cosades, my main questgiver."
whacks the guy
With this character's death, the thread of prophecy is severed. You can't restore a saved game so if you wanna continue the main quest you'll have to restart from the beginning. LMAO.
"Fuck this shit I quit!"
choice and consequence?
sounds like incline to me

Maybe sometimes I wanna make the choice I know is shitty, just to see what happens or to see if I can.
And then I reload and make the choice I want to continue on with.

That's the cool thing about games with permissive save systems: if you decide you wanna massacre an entire village's civilian population right now, you can do it. And then you reload and continue playing normally.

I'm not making a choice I want to commit to in these cases. I'm just playing around and doing dumb shit because it's fun.

It's a game. Lemme do dumb shit and have some fun. Don't force me to commit to an entirely serious playthrough where any dumb shit I do is irreversible, and I have to keep two separate characters if I wanna do dumb shit with one of them.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2018
Messages
50,754
Codex Year of the Donut
Me, playing Morrowind: "I wonder if I can kill Caius Cosades, my main questgiver."
whacks the guy
With this character's death, the thread of prophecy is severed. Restore a saved game to restore the weave of fate, or persist in the doomed world you have created.
"Ok cool. I like that this game allows me to kill essential NPCs. Now lemme just reload my quicksave and continue to play on normally."

If Morrowind had a limited save system:
"I wonder if I can kill Caius Cosades, my main questgiver."
whacks the guy
With this character's death, the thread of prophecy is severed. You can't restore a saved game so if you wanna continue the main quest you'll have to restart from the beginning. LMAO.
"Fuck this shit I quit!"
choice and consequence?
sounds like incline to me

Maybe sometimes I wanna make the choice I know is shitty, just to see what happens or to see if I can.
And then I reload and make the choice I want to continue on with.

That's the cool thing about games with permissive save systems: if you decide you wanna massacre an entire village's civilian population right now, you can do it. And then you reload and continue playing normally.

I'm not making a choice I want to commit to in these cases. I'm just playing around and doing dumb shit because it's fun.

It's a game. Lemme do dumb shit and have some fun. Don't force me to commit to an entirely serious playthrough where any dumb shit I do is irreversible, and I have to keep two separate characters if I wanna do dumb shit with one of them.
you can make the same argument about cheats
you can have all the fun you want by enabling save cheats in the console menu
 

tritosine2k

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Checkpoint save gave you Diablo 2 with half assed solo mode then in turn WoW and its "lag friendly" cooldown mechanics: two decades of decline (and counting).
 

Pentium

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Me, playing Morrowind: "I wonder if I can kill Caius Cosades, my main questgiver."
whacks the guy
With this character's death, the thread of prophecy is severed. Restore a saved game to restore the weave of fate, or persist in the doomed world you have created.
"Ok cool. I like that this game allows me to kill essential NPCs. Now lemme just reload my quicksave and continue to play on normally."

If Morrowind had a limited save system:
"I wonder if I can kill Caius Cosades, my main questgiver."
whacks the guy
With this character's death, the thread of prophecy is severed. You can't restore a saved game so if you wanna continue the main quest you'll have to restart from the beginning. LMAO.
"Fuck this shit I quit!"
Well yeah, that's sort of the point of C&C. You don't mess around and do stupid bs like killing your quest givers.

But why would you argue what may happen if you just ADD limitations into an existing title? SHOULD a game have some than it needs to be generally adjusted for it (e.g. making quest givers invincible for fucks with stupid ideas).
 
Last edited:

WhiteShark

Learned
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Messages
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滅びてゆく世界
Me, playing Morrowind: "I wonder if I can kill Caius Cosades, my main questgiver."
whacks the guy
With this character's death, the thread of prophecy is severed. Restore a saved game to restore the weave of fate, or persist in the doomed world you have created.
"Ok cool. I like that this game allows me to kill essential NPCs. Now lemme just reload my quicksave and continue to play on normally."

If Morrowind had a limited save system:
"I wonder if I can kill Caius Cosades, my main questgiver."
whacks the guy
With this character's death, the thread of prophecy is severed. You can't restore a saved game so if you wanna continue the main quest you'll have to restart from the beginning. LMAO.
"Fuck this shit I quit!"
Well yeah, that's sort of the point of C&C. You don't do stupid bs like killing you quest givers.

But why would you argue what may happen if you just ADD limitations into an existing title? SHOULD a game have some than it needs to be generally adjusted for it (e.g. making quest givers invincible so for fucks with stupid ideas).
Or, better yet, make the game completeable even if you do kill everyone, like in Dark Souls.
 

JarlFrank

I like Thief THIS much
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Messages
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Steve gets a Kidney but I don't even get a tag.
Well yeah, that's sort of the point of C&C. You don't mess around and do stupid bs like killing your quest givers.

But why would you argue what may happen if you just ADD limitations into an existing title? SHOULD a game have some than it needs to be generally adjusted for it (e.g. making quest givers invincible for fucks with stupid ideas).

:lol:

:lol::lol:

:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

So you are advocating for the greater decline of invincible questgivers, in order to prevent the completely optional sin of savescumming which can just be avoided by having a strong will and just not hitting that quickload button.

Get a load of this idiot! Holy shit. :lol:

We must protect people from ruining their own game by savescumming! But then we must also protect them from entering an unwinnable state by doing stupid shit! Most retarded argument I've ever read on the Codex, and I've been here for over a decade.
 

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