Vapourware Scam Citizen - Only people with too much money can become StarCitizens! WOULD YOU LIKE TO KNOW MORE?

[Blaine]

It's Roberts we're talking about here, Freelancer was very "casual" in this sense and the impression I always got of SC

Roberts left the Freelancer development team long before the game was complete. He spent far more time not on the team than on it. This is something almost all Freelancer fans are unaware of (and I don't blame you for being unaware of it, either).

Further, he tries to avoid talking about Freelancer or commenting on it one way or the other, other than politely acknowledging Freelancer fans. I've gotten the distinct impression he'd rather not be associated with it.

Finally:

And this is just one example.

 

[Whiran]

Well, a $70 laser mouse with a nice mousepad will be better, but yes, the fact that a 7-year-old can theoretically learn the game in fifteen minutes is worrisome.

That sounds good to me.

That suggests that the controls are fairly intuitive for a mouse user and accessible.

I thought the idea behind HOTAS was to have lots of control over little things which would make using HOTAS much harder to get into but, after mastering all the fiddly bits, could be better (for the very few who master it) than using a mouse and keyboard combination? But, even with that, that the primary idea for using HOTAS was for a more immersive experience?

 

[Grunker]

If mouse is OP, the solution seems to be adding functionality to the HOTAS, not nerfing mouse.

You are basicly arguing.

I'm not arguing anything, I'm asking. I literally said I didn't have any sort of clear overview of the discussion, that's why I asked. I'm willing to eat Blaine's argument raw, but I'll supplement that concession by asking what the fuck you guys expected. Did you expect a mass appeal MMO based on Wing Commander to feature hardcore simulation controls? It's been a long (loooooooong) while since I play WC, but I don't recall its controls being that difficult to work with, really.

Maybe what I'm asking is this: Blaine, could you whip up your preferred alternative? Like, how should the game control with KBM?

 

[Blaine]

That suggests that the controls are fairly intuitive for a mouse user and accessible.

accessible.

 

[Raapys]

Isn't the solution quite simple though? They'll just have to exclusively use non-rotatable hardpoints for weapons. Sacrifice some realism for gameplay.

That'd be pretty retarded, but it's not like I have any better ideas either. Glad I don't need to be making these decisions. Of course, since they already have people's money they can pretty much ignore all the wailing and just do whatever they want.

True. I think it looks better visually though. I.e., ships firing straight forward looks better than ships firing at an angle. Smaller fighter-type craft mind you, I assume the larger ships will all have turrets and not cannons anyway.

 

[Blaine]

Sorry if this was already asked, but can't you bind the gimballed guns to the "joystick" on your Saitek 52 throttle ("clitoris" with the button that mimics the mouse button), so you move them independently from the main joystic axes? Or to one of the 8-hats? That way you would have main joystick trigger for fixed guns and "clitoris" functionality for gimballed guns. I know it will not work the way normal mouse works, but still not bad. Alternatively, with bigger ships, you would have AI or another human operating gimballed guns.

We don't really know yet, and you have to edit config files to assign custom controls currently, especially with joysticks/HOTAS.

I imagine you'll be able to pick your "gimbal cursor controller" though, yes.

 

[Whiran]

Thank you for pointing out my join date and for answering my question with a yes by doing so.

 

[Blaine]

Maybe what I'm asking is this: Blaine, could you whip up your preferred alternative? Like, how should the game control with KBM?

I'll think about it. I have a decent idea of my ideal solution, but it'll take time to create a mockup in Torrentshop.

 

[Bradylama]

Ideally a mouse should not even be a factor. Pitch and roll with the arrow keys, like the old days. If gimballed cannons need to be auto-aimed then so be it, but the way you control a ship should be what counts, not point and click like any other game.

Keep in mind, this is going to be a massively mutliplayer game that requires players to take out insurance policies on their ships to guarantee replacement. If you can get shotdown by some scrub on daddy's cumpooter who just has to point the mouse onto your ship to win it's a problem.

 

[Raapys]

Ye, let's make the game as uncomfortable to play as it possibly can be. Just because.

 

[J_C]

Ye, let's make the game as uncomfortable to play as it possibly can be. Just because.

Yes, because having an awesumbe button (like mouse aiming in a sim) is so much better.

 

[Bradylama]

Ye, let's make the game as uncomfortable to play as it possibly can be. Just because.

It's not "just because," dingus, it's because games that reward high skill are infinitely more satisfying than casual click fests. This is especially true for an MMO like Star Citizen which aims to hold the attention of its players for months and years at a time. They need players to want to stay in the game and want to spend real cash on in-game currency. If you can get by controlling a ship with nothing but the mouse and WASD keys, then pilot skill means diddly squat, and a significant amount of the player base (with a large disposable income) will just quit and play Elite: Dangerous.

 

[Turisas]

If you can get by controlling a ship with nothing but the mouse and WASD keys

Do you mean that more keys should be used for fine controls, or that getting peripherals should be mandatory to be competitive in pvp?

 

[Destroid]

As long as there is a warthunder style mouse autopilot, the aiming issues will exist. I played multiplayer Il-2 on mouse and keyboard, it's perfectly do-able without an autopilot, although a joystick is certainly the preferable input method. I imagine in space where you don't have to content with stalls and all the other aerodynamic issues, the problems would be significantly mitigated for the mouse/kb user.

 

[Bradylama]

If you can get by controlling a ship with nothing but the mouse and WASD keys

Do you mean that more keys should be used for fine controls, or that getting peripherals should be mandatory to be competitive in pvp?

The former. Being able to use the mouse to pitch & steer rudder, AND aim your guns is too easy. On top of that, everything else about the game is designed around immersive simulation to an annoying degree, to the point where you can feel compelled to buy a golf cart for your hangar just so you don't have to waste time running all over it. After going that in-depth, leaving PvP a throw up to arcade controls is too anachronistic. They made everything a simulative experience except the very core of the gameplay.

 

[Blaine]

Maybe what I'm asking is this: Blaine, could you whip up your preferred alternative? Like, how should the game control with KBM?

 

[Grunker]

Don't you think that will cause even more problems as simulation-fags complain that their control of choice is getting baby-sitted by the computer or somesuch?

 

[Blaine]

Don't you think that will cause even more problems as simulation-fags complain that their control of choice is getting baby-sitted by the computer or somesuch?

It's a compromise, no doubt about it.

At this point I'd also be in favor of simply bayleeting gimbaled guns entirely, on small, nimble craft at any rate. Is that realistic? Not really, not in the far future. Modern military vessels have gimbaled guns aplenty, some with head-tracking (helicopter gunships, for example). However, plenty of sacrifices have already been made in the name of "cool factor" in Star Citizen: sound in space, laser packets that move as slowly as bullets, speed limits significantly lower than modern race cars can achieve, tiny motionless asteroid fields, and so on.

Capital ship weapons and turrets are another matter.

Even setting aside controls, surely you can see how the current massive aiming zone (it's actually quite a bit larger in diameter than the circle I drew) makes gimbaled weapons far superior to fixed. Even if the fixed weapons are 1.5-1.75x as powerful to compensate (they are), that's not much compensation when it's 10x easier to hit with gimbaled weapons.

 

[Bradylama]

Even without the 1:1 reticle aim, the game still auto-compensates your aim with gimballed and fixed weapons, from what I've seen on the Hornet. If you point your mouse on top of the enemy craft and get a green triangle, that's your firing solution. Your weapons are automatically leading when you get that green triangle, no manual aiming required.

 

[Blaine]

My mockup is making the rounds on /vg/, the official forum megathreads (some other person cross-posted it), and elsewhere, very slightly but noticeably increasing the shitstorm.

 

[Raapys]

Ye, let's make the game as uncomfortable to play as it possibly can be. Just because.

It's not "just because," dingus, it's because games that reward high skill are infinitely more satisfying than casual click fests. This is especially true for an MMO like Star Citizen which aims to hold the attention of its players for months and years at a time. They need players to want to stay in the game and want to spend real cash on in-game currency. If you can get by controlling a ship with nothing but the mouse and WASD keys, then pilot skill means diddly squat, and a significant amount of the player base (with a large disposable income) will just quit and play Elite: Dangerous.

Nothing but the mouse and wasd keys? As opposed to nothing but a stick and a thrust control? And doesn't your argument go both ways? I know I won't be bothered if, like in some other games, they deliberately fuck with mouse controls so that other control schemes can appear comparable.

I guess that's ultimately the 'problem' with m/kb, because it's superior to everything else you lose some of the inherent challenges that other control schemes present. But then again, I'd argue sticks in 'real' spacecraft would probably work more like a mouse than like a stick in an atmospheric craft, since roll is generally a fairly useless action up in space; it's certainly not needed to turn the craft around.

 

[Bradylama]

Rolling is most certainly not a useless action in dogfighting, which is the core of the game.

Nothing but the mouse and wasd keys? As opposed to nothing but a stick and a thrust control? And doesn't your argument go both ways? I know I won't be bothered if, like in some other games, they deliberately fuck with mouse controls so that other control schemes can appear comparable.

No, it doesn't go both ways. Mouse + WASD is supposed to be an FPS or an arcade setup, not a combat simulator's. If you can control a fighter craft like a fatter, slower Doom Guy with auto-aim, something is wrong.

 

[Raapys]

Rolling is most certainly not a useless action in dogfighting, which is the core of the game.

Nothing but the mouse and wasd keys? As opposed to nothing but a stick and a thrust control? And doesn't your argument go both ways? I know I won't be bothered if, like in some other games, they deliberately fuck with mouse controls so that other control schemes can appear comparable.

No, it doesn't go both ways. Mouse + WASD is supposed to be an FPS or an arcade setup, not a combat simulator's. If you can control a fighter craft like a fatter, slower Doom Guy with auto-aim, something is wrong.

Not sure I agree with either of those. I mean yeah, rolling can be 'distracting', but ultimately everyone's aiming for the center of mass anyway, not a wing, so spinning or not they're still gonna hit you(or not). You'll only make a smaller target if you're going upwards/downwards, in which case spinning 90 degrees will minimize your profile.

And 'supposed to be'? Keyboard and mouse has been used to control any number of craft since day 1. WASD + mouse happens to work great for FPS because you can go in four directions and aim. It happens to work great for space sim since you can go in four(6 with roll, so +QE) directions and aim... I mean, it's ultimately the same thing, ye?

 

[Blaine]

Raapys
You don't understand why rolling is an integral part of 6dof dogfighting?

Although this guy is using a mouse (but is using a throttle and TrackIR), the mouse controls in Disaspora (Freespace 2 mod) aren't nearly as auto-assist as those in Arena Commander currently.

This is a decent, though not perfect, example of what Newtonian 6dof ought to look like. If he were using a joystick instead of a mouse, he'd have superior pitch and yaw control. You cannot do this with just a mouse and keyboard (throttle control's not fine enough, among other considerations), particularly with a setup that encourages chase-the-mouse for targeting rather than point-the-nose.

 

[tuluse]

It's not a nerf, for fuck's sake. Developers can add (or remove) functionality, automation, aim assist, etc. to any control scheme right up until the game practically plays itself; in my opinion, CIG have strayed too far toward "plays itself" with the mouse controls right out of the gate. Tying gimbaled guns 1:1 to the mouse cursor was a design decision, not an inherent advantage of the mouse. It's quite a complex issue, and not nearly so simple as mere nerfs and buffs.

I'm actually gobsmacked at the reaction to this issue here at the Codex; I expected most Codexers to sneer at simplistic automated mouse controls.

I think most of us are flight sim noobs and don't fully understand what the problem is. From reading your posts, it seems like the problem isn't mouse aiming, but mouse aiming on top of flight assist.

I have a question. What if there were two different modes. Like if you held shift, the guns would follow the mouse, but the ship wouldn't and when you let go the ship would follow the mouse, but the guns would point directly in front of the ship?