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[Blaine]

Uh, what's stopping people from disabling Mouse for Flight Controls, letting Joystick control flight and strictly Gun Control to the more precise mouse.

Throttle control is important in 6dof, too. I use my throttle for controlling the throttle axis (obviously), reverse thrust, the afterburner, "brakes," sliding up/down/left/right (with 4- or 8-way HAT), matching target speed, and a number of discretionary functions assigned to remaining buttons/HATs. On my throttle, there's even a console controller-esque little analog stick that "clicks in" to also function as a button (just like Xbox and PS3 controllers) that's handy for navigating game menus and making selections.

Replace that with a mouse and, aside from its use in aiming, you have only a few mouse buttons available to assign in addition to the joystick.

Not to mention, people generally use their dominant hand to control both joysticks and mice. With a joystick and mouse combo, you'd be forced to use either one or the other in your off hand. This isn't a problem with a throttle since it has only one axis (two parallel, if it's split) and doesn't need super-fine control.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Note also however that CIG has mentioned in the past that gimbaled guns will quite probably be allowed to be linked to head-tracking devices (TrackIR 5, Oculus Rift, etc.) somewhere down the line. In real life, head-tracking helmet HUDs linked to gimbaled guns are already a reality on certain military helicopters.

In other words, the guns would point where you're looking. It's hard to say how precise that could potentially be or how draining it would be to have to glance directly at your target to keep the gimbaled guns on-point, but with some slight auto-aim (which mouse users already get), it could be very workable.

In which case, a TrackIR/Oculus and HOTAS would be VASTLY superior to a mouse, since instead of navigation and guns being on one axis you'll have nuanced maneuverability with the HOTAS and the ability to track your gimbaled guns just by moving your head.

 

[Blaine]

CIG issued an in-universe (fictional) recall in response to a bug in Arena Commander:

 

[Blaine]

There's a huge shitstorm over the chase-the-mouse vs. HOTAS issue over on the official forums, with one megathread containing almost 500 posts, and individual threads such as the following:

 

[J_C]

And that's the problem. Even if you have superior ship control with HOTAS, the aiming is so easy with a mouse (if the guns are not locked in the axis of the ship), that they will kill you before you could pull a manouver.

 

[Disgruntled]

hmm my first impressions are better then i thought. Videos dont really do it justice compared to playing first hand. Looks pretty good and feels like space for the most part.

The controls are a nightmare though. Using kb/m and with almost no recent experience in flying games has left me flinging myself around like a retard. That shouldnt be too hard to fix I suppose.

Dogfighting itself is the biggest issue. It is like that thread says, chase the mouse. I spent my time against the vanduul locked onto a ship and mindlessly following it with the guns till I get a hit. No spatial awareness apart from dodging the odd asteroid, basically a turret with jets attached.
Still only an hour in so maybe im playing it wrong.
I think if the controls are fixed up and I learn how to fly the damn thing, it wont be as crazy.

Other things that bother me is the top speed and boundary limits, both are rather short. I heard it was tied to Cryengine so I dont know how far they can go with that, cause it needs serious expanding.


Has potential but needs work.
Alpha content etc etc.

 

[Blaine]

https://forums.robertsspaceindustri...-to-configure-joystick-throttle-pedals#latest

Me trolling 4chan:

 

[Infinitron]

You'd think EA would be upset with him throwing around the word "Origin" like that. The logo even looks similar to the old Origin one.

 

[Haba]

There should be a setting on the server so you can chose whether if you want to join into an all sim server (with joystick control only), or arcade, or half-sim. This works very good in War Thunder.

If by very good you mean very good in making sure that you get a single fight per night at best, then sure.

Most people do not have joysticks those days.

 

[Raapys]

Yep. If they(SC & Elite) deliberately make mouse controls clunky or 'not as good as can be' I'll be dumping both games.

 

[Grunker]

Blaine: So people are complaining that the controls are too good? And their solution is to purposely limit the mouse control in favor of the more complicated control scheme?

Seems to me that the controls can never be too "easy" (i.e. good) - if that's a problem then it's far more likely that there simply isn't enough upside to using the complex control scheme. I.e. the list of functions that can't reliably be executed with the mouse is relatively non-existant, which is another way to say that all the complex physics control you can purpotedly have over the ship aren't either necessary or functional?

Again, I know shit about shit when it comes to what this debate is about, but any debate involving "controls are too functional" raise my eyebrows.

 

[Raapys]

I could see the argument if the mouse somehow adds 'non-existing' functions to the ships. Or avoids the physics system set in place. That kinda stuff. But if it doesn't, then there shouldn't be a problem.

 

[Blaine]

Most people do not have joysticks those days.

Granted, this was from way back when there were approx. 100,000 backers. If all 100,000 had voted, I imagine it would've been split nearly down the middle +/- 5% favoring one side or the other.

Blaine: So people are complaining that the controls are too good? And their solution is to purposely limit the mouse control in favor of the more complicated control scheme?

Many fighter craft have gimbaled or turreted guns fitted, most notably the Hornet. These gimbaled guns currently follow the mouse cursor almost exactly 1:1 within a very wide radius (see posted video) automatically, meaning that you quite simply move the mouse cursor over your target and press fire, almost as easily as clicking an icon on your Windows desktop. It's already easier to aim with a mouse than a HOTAS without gimbaled auto-aim, but flight and 1:1 aiming controls being on the same two-axis mouse is ridiculous.

The equivalent for a HOTAS, which is much better than a mouse at finely maneuvering a ship (conversely a mouse is much better at fine aiming), would be if the guns simply automatically aimed themselves with no user input required other than maneuvering the nose close to the target. After all, maneuvering is largely handled automatically by the game when playing with mouse controls; why shouldn't aiming be largely handled by the game when playing with a HOTAS?

There are many proposed solutions, including gimbaled guns automatically auto-aiming a bit for both joystick and mouse users, but not 1:1 (for either) as it is currently for mouse users.

There are several megathreads, many smaller threads, and a massive shitstorm on the official Arena Commander subforum and elsewhere. One thing's for sure: The developers can't possibly miss the debate.

 

[Grunker]

Hmm, fair enough. If it's a question of the mouse controls blocking the challenge for the mouse users, I can agree. However I still don't see the argument to nerf one scheme to align it with another. If mouse is OP, the solution seems to be adding functionality to the HOTAS, not nerfing mouse. I do see the auto-aim versus auto-maneuver point as quite legitimate though.

Anyway, I'm basically talking out of my ass. Thanks for the rundown.

 

[Blaine]

It's not a nerf, for fuck's sake. Developers can add (or remove) functionality, automation, aim assist, etc. to any control scheme right up until the game practically plays itself; in my opinion, CIG have strayed too far toward "plays itself" with the mouse controls right out of the gate. Tying gimbaled guns 1:1 to the mouse cursor was a design decision, not an inherent advantage of the mouse. It's quite a complex issue, and not nearly so simple as mere nerfs and buffs.

I'm actually gobsmacked at the reaction to this issue here at the Codex; I expected most Codexers to sneer at simplistic automated mouse controls.

 

[J_C]

If mouse is OP, the solution seems to be adding functionality to the HOTAS, not nerfing mouse.

You are basicly arguing that they should dumb down the game, add aim-assist to the hotas, and even flight assist. Because the mouse has that. People who play simulators don't want assists, just like an FPS player wouldn't want to play with aim assist on.

I'm actually gobsmacked that I'm on this side of the argument here at the Codex; I expected most Codexers to sneer at simplistic automated mouse controls.

I just think that not many people play flight simulators, and are in the dark regarding the control scheme.

 

[Blaine]

Perhaps an analogy will help.

I'm sure everyone is aware of the existence of racing simulator computer games. Some of them are incredibly realistic; most also have a "Driver Assist" toggle setting of some kind.

With Driver Assist toggled on, the game automatically (and behind the scenes) taps the brake, adjusts the accelerator input slightly, and assists with fine steering such that it's much easier to take a curve without blasting off into the treeline and turning into a fireball, and much harder to oversteer off the course even when not taking sharp curves. It will also be much more forgiving with changing gears.

When you turn Driver Assist off, the car will drive just like in real life: Your steering wheel, accelerator, gearshift, and brake inputs will be received by the game exactly as you give them, and if that means you rocket off into the trees like a startled bluejay while taking a curve, then you'll be doing exactly that.

Mouse control in most space sims is very much like having Driver Assist turned on. You needn't concern yourself with fine maneuvering, only move the mouse in the direction you want to go, and the ship's thrusters and such compensate to follow it. You'll still have to set the throttle and press buttons to roll and such. Adding gimbal auto-aim on top of this on the same two axes....

 

[Turisas]

Granted, this was from way back when there were approx. 100,000 backers.

Do the same poll now and the stats would look very different. The enthusiasts that have HOTAS setups to begin with would be far more likely to be early backers than just random gamers that are semi-interested (enough so to buy the cheapest package).

People are just butthurt that their expensive setups are beat by any old $20 mouse.

 

[Raapys]

There should be no assists. To rotate left you should have to manually fire right-side forward thruster and/or left-side backward thruster, and then fire the opposite when you want to stop rotating. They may have space ships, but that doesn't mean they have software that can coordinate thruster control.

 

[Blaine]

Do the same poll now and the stats would look very different. The enthusiasts that have HOTAS setups to begin with would be far more likely to be early backers than just random gamers that are semi-interested (enough so to buy the cheapest package).

What are you saying, Turisas? Are you implying—nay, outright stating—that developers should cater to the lowest common denominator and appeal to the widest possible audience when developing a computer game... one marketed as bringing back the good old days, no less?

Is that what you're saying, Turisas? Because it sounds very much like that's what you're saying.

Spoiler

People are just butthurt that their expensive setups are beat by any old $20 mouse.

Well, a $70 laser mouse with a nice mousepad will be better, but yes, the fact that a 7-year-old can theoretically learn the game in fifteen minutes is worrisome.

It's not just about HOTAS, it's also about low skill ceiling and how quickly combat will become boring even if everyone is content to use the mouse, when chase-the-mouse with auto-aim is 75% of what you need to do to adequately control your ship and its armament.

 

[Bradylama]

As somebody who just dropped a hundo on a Fighterstick, this troubles me.

 

[Turisas]

What are you saying, Turisas? Are you implying—nay, outright stating—that developers should cater to the lowest common denominator and appeal to the widest possible audience when developing a computer game... one marketed as bringing back the good old days, no less?

Is that what you're saying, Turisas? Because it sounds very much like that's what you're saying.

It's Roberts we're talking about here, Freelancer was very "casual" in this sense and the impression I always got of SC was that he wanted to continue largely in the same vein, except Bigger, Better and Unfettered by publisher meddling - not make some super hardcore sim for serious people only. I think some of these HOTAS folks won't be happy until their preferred method of control is better than everything else.

 

[Raapys]

Isn't the solution quite simple though? They'll just have to exclusively use non-rotatable hardpoints for weapons. Sacrifice some realism for gameplay. That wouldn't bother me, so long as they get the navigation with the mouse right.

 

[Blaine]

As somebody who just dropped a hundo on a Fighterstick, this troubles me.

You're welcome.

Don't worry, it's still fine (and preferred) in Elite Dangerous, because Braben isn't pandering to a clown car full of casual retards.

However, it's important to note that CIG haven't responded to the shitstorm yet. There's no sense drawing conclusions yet.

 

[mikaelis]

Sorry if this was already asked, but can't you bind the gimballed guns to the "joystick" on your Saitek 52 throttle ("clitoris" with the button that mimics the mouse button), so you move them independently from the main joystic axes? Or to one of the 8-hats? That way you would have main joystick trigger for fixed guns and "clitoris" functionality for gimballed guns. I know it will not work the way normal mouse works, but still not bad. Alternatively, with bigger ships, you would have AI or another human operating gimballed guns.

 

[Turisas]

Isn't the solution quite simple though? They'll just have to exclusively use non-rotatable hardpoints for weapons. Sacrifice some realism for gameplay.

That'd be pretty retarded, but it's not like I have any better ideas either. Glad I don't need to be making these decisions. Of course, since they already have people's money they can pretty much ignore all the wailing and just do whatever they want.