Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (new From Software game)

[Nathir]

I also remember having difficulties against the Demon, but iirc then I used the umbrella shield and did it first try.

 

[Lambach]

I also remember having difficulties against the Demon, but iirc then I used the umbrella shield and did it first try.

I never use Spirit Emblems in that fight before the third phase, because I need to cheese the shit out of it with that Whistle thingy and Divine Confetti, or my chances of beating the fucker rapidly approach zero. DoH remains the only Boss I could never defeat without Prosthetics and/or cheese.

 

[Silva]

Anybody else noticed a big gap in difficulty between the two possible paths (the normal one and the one where you fight extra bosses, like Father Owl etc) ?

My first time I missed the extra bosses and the endgame ones became really tough. I almost quitted the game on demon of hatred. Then my next playthrough I went for the path where you fight extra bosses along the way and I wiped the floor with demon of Hatred (besides making Isshin much mode manageable).

I think the "default" playthrough can become too frustrating because of this, specially for first timers.

 

[Old Hans]

i really hate these bosses that have a sweep and a thrust and you have 0.1 seconds to figure out which one it is

 

[Black Angel]

i really hate these bosses that have a sweep and a thrust and you have 0.1 seconds to figure out which one it is

Weapon on the ground = sweep
Weapon not on the ground = thrust
Not holding their weapons? = grabs
You can also identify them based on what attack move they performed prior to the perilous attacks. Generally speaking, a sweep will flow from horizontal slashes, while thrusts generally happens after vertical strikes or if they pull their weapons back.

If you're still not confident in identifying the attacks in time, you can always train with Hanbei the Undying.

 

[Old Hans]

i really hate these bosses that have a sweep and a thrust and you have 0.1 seconds to figure out which one it is

Weapon on the ground = sweep
Weapon not on the ground = thrust
Not holding their weapons? = grabs
You can also identify them based on what attack move they performed prior to the perilous attacks. Generally speaking, a sweep will flow from horizontal slashes, while thrusts generally happens after vertical strikes or if they pull their weapons back.

If you're still not confident in identifying the attacks in time, you can always train with Hanbei the Undying.

I blame the big red rune that pops up, which draws my attention away from the animation. so really im not gonna blame myself. I will blame miyazaki for adding that distraction, which goes against the Shinobi iron code.

 

[Blaine]

Two which Demon's/Dark Souls game is the level design (strictly the level design) in Sekiro most similar?

The answer to this question will determine whether or not I ever play it. It's on sale now, and I've been playing through DS1 and DS2 again this past month or so, so I'm interested.

 

[Jedi Master Radek]

I think it's DS 3. There no world interconnectness like in Dark Souls 1 nor environmental hazards like in DS 2. However, Sekiro isn't about level design, but about boss battles. It's certainly more fun than DS 3, Sekiro feels more fresh, even if it's just a pure action game.

 

[Silva]

Two which Demon's/Dark Souls game is the level design (strictly the level design) in Sekiro most similar?

Sekiro level design is pretty good and somewhat refreshing coming from the Souls games. It's a semi-linear romp through the Ashina clan lands with the main castle as it's epicenter. Different from DS2 though, here it makes sense - you can open a map and see how the lands neighbour each other in coherent fashion. It's semi-linear because you'll need/want to revisit some of the peripheral areas after the first clean up, and refreshing because some areas are truly beautiful in a way you don't see much in Soulsdom.

I say go for it. Even if it's not my favorite souls, it's totally worthy the experience. Plus the bosses are the best From ever did.

 

[Multidirectional]

Don't play it it's gonna be too hard for you.

 

[Blaine]

Don't play it it's gonna be too hard for you.

It will certainly be too hard for me to play if it's one long, thinly-disguised linear path with treasure nooks off to the side and fast travel nodes every twenty feet like DS3 was.

 

[Old Hans]

Two which Demon's/Dark Souls game is the level design (strictly the level design) in Sekiro most similar?

The answer to this question will determine whether or not I ever play it. It's on sale now, and I've been playing through DS1 and DS2 again this past month or so, so I'm interested.

compared to demon's souls, you can traverse the areas fairly quickly in Sekiro, but the sword combat is so much fun and the boss fights are fun EXCEPT for that big dumb demon

 

[Silva]

Don't play it it's gonna be too hard for you.

It will certainly be too hard for me to play if it's one long, thinly-disguised linear path with treasure nooks off to the side and fast travel nodes every twenty feet like DS3 was.

You're in for a surprise. The vertical exploration + different combat results in a very different experience than Souls.

Stop talking and play it already.

 

[Multidirectional]

Don't play it it's gonna be too hard for you.

It will certainly be too hard for me to play if it's one long, thinly-disguised linear path with treasure nooks off to the side and fast travel nodes every twenty feet like DS3 was.

Wow even my ace in the hole foolproof plan to get you to play it yielded no result. Well that's it I'm all out of tricks.

 

[Blaine]

Silva I'm aware of the grappling hook and the many differences between the two franchises.

So far, I'm very unconvinced. DS3 greatly damaged my confidence in modern FromSoft's ability to design levels, previously one of the studio's greatest strengths; and there are countless of examples of games with verticality that are absolute shit in the level design department.

DS3 was basically a rail with content dropped on it, so I feel fairly justified in being skeptical here.

 

[Multidirectional]

If all you care about is level design Sekiro ain't for you. It's not terrible in that regard but it ain't DS or DS II. Exploration is done much faster thanks to highly increased mobility and really what you're gonna be doing most is getting raped by bosses over and over until you git gud. And yes, there are plenty of bonfires. So you play it for combat or you don't play at all. The problem with DS III for me was that combat was also pretty shit. I enjoyed it a lot in Sekiro. But it's not to everyone's taste.

 

[Cosmo]

Exploration is done much faster thanks to highly increased mobility and really what you're gonna be doing most is getting raped by bosses over and over until you git gud. So you play it for combat or you don't play at all.

Exploration is tactics. You don't explore a space, you explore the practical possibilities it's liable to give you.
You only discover space by absorbing into the way you play the game.

 

[Silva]

Exploration is tactics. You don't explore a space, you explore the practical possibilities it's liable to give you..

This. Sekiro is so different in its premise to Souls that trying to compare it DS 2 or 3 or whatever is useless.

 

[Blaine]

Exploration is tactics. You don't explore a space, you explore the practical possibilities it's liable to give you..

This. Sekiro is so different in its premise to Souls that trying to compare it DS 2 or 3 or whatever is useless.

I understand what you're trying to convey, but all games with any significant quantity of variegated virtual space/"real estate" (as opposed to merely a flat playing field for a board game, a mostly static UI for a puzzle game, etc.) perforce require someone to design the layout of that space. That's level design, and the basic principles of good level design are universal.

The only real exception to this is when the environment is meant to be realistic terrain of a realistic scale, such as in a flight or trucking simulator.

I enjoy difficult boss fights, but primarily when they're couched in a surrounding framework of meaningful exploration and environmental challenge: Hollow Knight, Super Metroid (a bit on the easy side), Gothic II, DS, DS2, etc.

Anyway, Multidirectional has finally given me what I need. Bonfires everywhere, level design phoned in to what's basically a funnel to the next boss in the boss rush--exactly what I would have expected from From after DS3.

 

[Multidirectional]

Yeah, well.. it's way better than DS3 and it felt like a needed breath of fresh air after 3 DS games. You're just scared because you know you wouldn't be able to beat the bosses anyway.

 

[Cosmo]

the basic principles of good level design are universal.

No. What you can do (the gameplay) in a given level will shape said level, so with every type of gameplay or videogame subgenre comes a different kind of level design. Therefore a different type of "exploration".
Your expecting of every game to be shaped more or less like a metroidvania is an indictment on your expectations and nothing else.

 

[Silva]

This clip shows how useless it is comparing Sekiro to Souls. Notice the freedom to traverse the map and approach situations differently, the myriad tactical possibilities. It's a different beast from Souls and trying to judge it by the same parameters is moot.

 

[Multidirectional]

^ Sekiro sucks as a stealth game though.

 

[Ivan]

^ Sekiro sucks as a stealth game though.

not a stealth game. it's in service of the action. definitely came in handy to mitigate some of the spongy enemies

 

[Black Angel]

I understand what you're trying to convey, but all games with any significant quantity of variegated virtual space/"real estate" (as opposed to merely a flat playing field for a board game, a mostly static UI for a puzzle game, etc.) perforce require someone to design the layout of that space. That's level design, and the basic principles of good level design are universal.

I get where you're coming from. But as Silva said, trying to judge this game on the basis of Souls games is a fool's errand, and as Cosmo puts it, different type of gameplay warrants different type of level design (and really, almost everything else).

If we're talking about those special something that Fromsoft has, in terms of their signature design philosophies, I'm happy to tell you (based on my experience of playing their game that were released since 2011) they still pretty much got it. However, the fact that the game is singleplayer has given them room to be a bit more lenient with their usual approach to game design; as in, there are some streamlining, but nowhere close to the extent of dumbing down.

But if we're talking strictly about the level design, ignoring the checkpoints placement, they're actually fine. In fact, I'd say they're meticulously designed with all the new stealth mechanics in mind. And by stealth mechanics, I don't just mean pressing a button to crouch; hugging a wall or a cliff, hanging off the ledges of a cliff or rooftop edges, shimmying through them all; even the new jumping mechanic, which includes even some form of double jump, I included them all here. Heck, if you pay close attention to how enemies behave, as long as their back turned to you, even if you're sprinting towards them they won't be alerted until you bump into them. This implies that Sekiro is in a perpetual state of sneaking, thus if we translate this to an actual RPG mechanics, say Fallout, Sekiro possess the Silent Running perk.

Now, if we do include the checkpoints placement, it's only really an issue in the first third of the game, which is unfortunately linear. But once you get past that, the game actually opens up, and the levels has overall better designs, either individually, or in conjunction with one another. Past the first third of the game, checkpoints acts as a staging point for attempting the levels ahead, so instances like a bonfire existing right next to a shortcut to the previous bonfire doesn't occur. There is an instance of an outright retarded checkpoint placement, one that spawned right after a mandatory boss. It's immediately rendered useless, because literally next to it is the actual checkpoint of that level, which could be said also useless because nearby is a shortcut to the 'first' checkpoint of the entire game. This has occurred before; in Bloodborne, a lamp spawned after a mandatory boss, despite the fact that 5 steps ahead a lamp has already been placed. These two instances are so fucking stupid, that my memory became messed up to the point that I thought they have an 'obsession' with spawning a checkpoint literally after every mandatory bosses, but after thinking it through I know that that's not true. And yet, another design aspect of the game that's not exactly related to level design, but still relevant nonetheless, I would elaborate further below.

^ Sekiro sucks as a stealth game though.

not a stealth game. it's in service of the action. definitely came in handy to mitigate some of the spongy enemies

I agree with both of you, albeit partially about the game being sucks as a stealth game. The reasons why it sucks as a stealth game is largely because of two things:

1. The fact that there's no dire, or even real, consequence for being detected by an enemy. This is also extended to the fact that even though enemies discovering the corpses of their allies would alert them to your presence, they won't stay in that state constantly, nor would they actively search for intruders or suspicious movements nearby. Even if you get detected, so what? There's an enemy that would make a fuzz and puts everyone around them on a constant state of alertness but there's, like, literally only 3 of them in the entire game? And there's no enemy that are designed to trap and stop you in your tracks, nor there's any that could catch up to you due to an increase in extra dimensional axis for movement with jumping and grappling hooks, and this relates immediately with the second point
2. The fact that you could just run past enemies. This is a "feature" in the Soulsborne games; I remembered some actually complained about this being in those games, but it's obviously a cardinal sin for a stealth game, or a game with an elaborate and involved stealth mechanics, to have.

I wouldn't claim to be someone who knows how a ninja/shinobi really works and operates, but I'd assume they are meant to swiftly traverse through obstacles and take down anyone standing in their way to their real objectives silently and quickly, instead of hanging around and maybe even drag corpses to hide them like they do in a Hitman game, so perhaps that first point about not being in constant state of alertness upon discovering a corpse is understandable. But the second point needs to be addressed if they ever planned to make this kind of game again.