Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice (new From Software game)

[Deflowerer]

Nah, it should be mostly read as "I suck at the game."

 

[Anonona]

What would even be artificial difficutly, and how does it differ from normal difficutly?

Probably something that kills you in one hit, has almost no wind up or tell and you can only learn how to deal with it after getting hit and be forced to restart the fight.

 

[Dadd]

Why does that make the difficulty "artificial"?

 

[Lyric Suite]

What would even be artificial difficutly, and how does it differ from normal difficutly?

Probably something that kills you in one hit, has almost no wind up or tell and you can only learn how to deal with it after getting hit and be forced to restart the fight.

So basically you don't like the idea of having to get gud.

 

[Dadd]

Abrupt increases in difficulty like those are necessary to keep the game genuinely challenging.

 

[Anonona]

Why does that make the difficulty "artificial"?

Probably because it would be more of a knowledge check that gets you the first time instead of something that truly test your skills, kind of like a desperation attack at the end of a boss fight but one that happens almost instantly without warning. Just talking in an hypothetical case

What would even be artificial difficutly, and how does it differ from normal difficutly?

Probably something that kills you in one hit, has almost no wind up or tell and you can only learn how to deal with it after getting hit and be forced to restart the fight.

So basically you don't like the idea of having to get gud.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I do love "getting gud", I'm just throwing my two cents of what could be considered artificial difficulty. Quite honestly I consider the use of the term bullshit in almost every case, including Porky's. Sekiro is in my opinion extremely fair and tightly designed. Hell, I would argue that the complain about requiring reflexes is invalid too. They help you win early, but if you learn a boss's patterns and tells you don't need to react fast, with practice you can win all fights.

 

[MajorMace]

Hell, I would argue that the complain about requiring reflexes is invalid too. They help you win early, but if you learn a boss's patterns and tells you don't need to react fast, with practice you can win all fights.

I'd agree. Also, it might have been patched, but I remember the parry window to be very forgiving compared to, say, the usual invicibility window of rolls in other games.
I remember mashing dat parry with quite the success back then. I think I first tried both giant skeletons fight despite being taken by surprise each time, simply by mashing dat parry.

Obviously when I say mash, I don't mean actual mashing. But the game isn't too punishing if you press it a bit early or a bit late iirc.

 

[Multidirectional]

Deflect windows are pretty generous in this game and it's definitely easier to do than parrying in Souls games. Anyone who thinks deflecting in Sekiro requires insane reflexes should try Dante's Royal Guard style in DMC. Now THAT is hard. And I'm talking DMC V, which has made Royal Guard easier than it was in previous games.

 

[Lyric Suite]

It's not hard to make an hard game (lel) and to be honest that's only part of the attraction of From games. I just like the style and the design. I like the difficutly too and they wouldn't be the same if they were easier but that's a relative thing.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

It's not hard to make an hard game (lel)

A cheap hard game, sure
But an hard game with no bullshit, now that requires finesse

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Getting too old for these artificial difficulty bullshit games.

Please make one (1) example of artificial difficulty in Sekiro. Just to understand what you mean by this term.

Bosses that have multiple phases are artificial difficulty. Bosses that have some stupid gimmick that you must do to defeath them, e.g. jump up to reflect lightning. Bosses that have infinite stamina, attack 4 million times, seamlessly switch between melee, ranged, magic weapons, have some stupid magic attack out of nowhere to "test" you, etc. Bosses that have a unique moveset that you must memorize by dying to them 40 times. Basically FS games are built around artificial difficulty.

Real difficulty would be just having an in-depth combat system, and having the player learn and master it, and then be able to apply it in every fight. Games like KCD and M&B come to mind for great examples of that. Of course with a combat system like that, you can't build the entire game around it, god knows, you might have to add some actual story, and dialogue and exploration, but who needs that when you can throw together a game after game after game where none of that shit matters and you can just around from Boss to Boss, mastering each Boss's BS.

 

[MajorMace]

I can see how Sekiro in particular can feel scummy with some of its bosses, as they pull out new tricks during a fight (and then again, most are very much fine. Heck I'm shit at the game and I first try-d the double ape encounter...) but to call it artificial difficulty because you need to "scout" a fight to know about it (... like yeah... ?) sounds petty.

Real difficulty would be just having an in-depth combat system, and having the player learn and master it, and then be able to apply it in every fight. Games like KCD and M&B come to mind for great examples of that. Of course with a combat system like that, you can't build the entire game around it, god knows, you might have to add some actual story, and dialogue and exploration, but who needs that when you can throw together a game after game after game where none of that shit matters and you can just around from Boss to Boss, mastering each Boss's BS.

So they make a flawed combat system, so flawed that they don't need to decorate it with story dialogue and exploration (sic) ?
What ? How does that work in your head ?

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

The point is, real life combat cannot work like it does in FS games. Imagine if you practiced some martial art or sword fighting system all your life, and then every time you ran across a new enemy, you would die 20 times because it fights in a completely artifical way different from every other enemy. Obviously no one would survive in such a world.

So the essense of FS combat is you always suck. You could master all the previous bosses and die 400 times to the next one. And the entire game is built around that. You just run from boss to boss, and die a bunch of times to master it. The truth is... that's a pretty boring approach to video games. At least in DaS1, they created an interesting world also, but by ER/Sekiro, the world is just a backdrop for boss runs...

 

[Tyranicon]

The point is, real life combat cannot work like it does in FS games. Imagine if you practiced some martial art or sword fighting system all your life, and then every time you ran across a new enemy, you would die 20 times because it fights in a completely artifical way different from every other enemy. Obviously no one would survive in such a world.

So the essense of FS combat is you always suck. You could master all the previous bosses and die 400 times to the next one. And the entire game is built around that. You just run from boss to boss, and die a bunch of times to master it. The truth is... that's a pretty boring approach to video games. At least in DaS1, they created an interesting world also, but by ER/Sekiro, the world is just a backdrop for boss runs...

I think Sekiro is trying to simulate the differences in fighting different opponents/styles, like a fighting game would. In this way, the game is actually realistic in that you have to learn your opponent, their strengths and weaknesses.

I'm no badass navy seal copypasta, but I did some light sparring (MMA/Krav/Taekwondo, not HEMA or anything with a sword) and Sekrio's combat "feels" more like a real fight than most other Fromsoft games (although Bloodborne is kind of like a street fight).

There's a real sense of waiting, positioning, reacting that are at a higher level than From's previous work.

However, I will agree that I also prefer a less "gamey" combat feel. And while a lot of people hate KC:D's combat, I actually love it and it's more historical approach.

 

[MajorMace]

The point is, real life combat cannot work like it does in FS games. Imagine if you practiced some martial art or sword fighting system all your life, and then every time you ran across a new enemy, you would die 20 times because it fights in a completely artifical way different from every other enemy. Obviously no one would survive in such a world.



So the essense of FS combat is you always suck. You could master all the previous bosses and die 400 times to the next one. And the entire game is built around that. You just run from boss to boss, and die a bunch of times to master it. The truth is... that's a pretty boring approach to video games. At least in DaS1, they created an interesting world also, but by ER/Sekiro, the world is just a backdrop for boss runs...

I see your point. It's obviously a matter of taste. Demon's Souls, Dark Souls III and Sekiro are very gimmick oriented indeed. It's a little less true for the others. Dark Souls II being the most organic of the bunch.

But in this regard, you're right, the combat system rests on the design of the enemies you face. Beyond boss fights, it's true for creeps and minions too, and even for traps and obstacles. That's the essence of the experience.

I still think it's a stretch to deem its difficulty artificial. This isn't a "I wanna be the Guy" type of game. And you do get good beyond knowing patterns and movesets, as anyone probably fared much better during his second game of the series than during the first they've played.

Sekiro isn't much different. Once you get the shtick, you can breeze through the game when you were struggling at first. And that's, as I said, without knowing the later levels.

Genichiro and the Owl are extreme cases of set pieces that require training in order to overcome. It's a very fraction of the game in the end.

I disagree strongly regarding the relevance of this approach. I think, on the contrary, it pushes the designer to offer several challenges in a single mold of gameplay and the player to reconsider his approach of said gameplay.

I do agree though that the latest tendancy to include boss rushes is annoying.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

The point is, real life combat cannot work like it does in FS games. Imagine if you practiced some martial art or sword fighting system all your life, and then every time you ran across a new enemy, you would die 20 times because it fights in a completely artifical way different from every other enemy. Obviously no one would survive in such a world.

So the essense of FS combat is you always suck. You could master all the previous bosses and die 400 times to the next one. And the entire game is built around that. You just run from boss to boss, and die a bunch of times to master it. The truth is... that's a pretty boring approach to video games. At least in DaS1, they created an interesting world also, but by ER/Sekiro, the world is just a backdrop for boss runs...

I think Sekiro is trying to simulate the differences in fighting different opponents/styles, like a fighting game would.

This is key, because just earlier today, I was thinking abnout FS games, and basically they ARE becoming fighting games. They are not RPGs or Action-Adventure games anymore. All you do is basically fight bosses, learn their tricks and get better at that, and there is not much around that. I think their earlier games were different, more on the RPG/action-adventure side. And I for one, have no interest in fighting games, so that's why I am feeling burned out.

 

[Tyranicon]

This is key, because just earlier today, I was thinking abnout FS games, and basically they ARE becoming fighting games. They are not RPGs or Action-Adventure games anymore. All you do is basically fight bosses, learn their tricks and get better at that, and there is not much around that. I think their earlier games were different, more on the RPG/action-adventure side. And I for one, have no interest in fighting games, so that's why I am feeling burned out.

Sekiro is a departure from their usual stuff. With the financial success of Elden Ring, I think everyone expects From to keep going in the same direction.

But who knows? It'll be years before their next major title.

 

[NJClaw]

Bosses that have multiple phases are artificial difficulty. Bosses that have some stupid gimmick that you must do to defeath them, e.g. jump up to reflect lightning. Bosses that have infinite stamina, attack 4 million times, seamlessly switch between melee, ranged, magic weapons, have some stupid magic attack out of nowhere to "test" you, etc. Bosses that have a unique moveset that you must memorize by dying to them 40 times. Basically FS games are built around artificial difficulty.

Forgive me Porky, but it's impossible to take you seriously when you're playing a game in a series that has been doing this since day one and then complain about it. That's how these games work, why would you play them expecting a combat system that accurately imitates how real life fighting work? It would be like going in the Monkey Island thread to complain that puzzles don't make sense because real life doesn't work like that. It really sounds like you're butthurt about dying a bunch of times and just want a reason to complain.

And that's literally not what "artificial difficulty" means. Keep crying as much as you'd like, but PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD stop misusing terms like a random game journalist.

 

[Multidirectional]

The point is, real life combat cannot work like it does in FS games. Imagine if you practiced some martial art

Are you saying you actually believe martial artists can do real life combat?

It's ok dude, the game made you buttthurt and you need a break from it, no need to invent retarded reasons for why you are mad. I also played like shit and was plenty butthurt at Sekiro on my first run.

 

[MasPingon]

The point is, real life combat cannot work like it does in FS games. Imagine if you practiced some martial art

Are you saying you actually believe martial artists can do real life combat?

It's ok dude, the game made you buttthurt and you need a break from it, no need to invent retarded reasons for why you are mad. I also played like shit and was plenty butthurt at Sekiro on my first run.

Yeah, I was there too You should mute yourself whining about Sekiro on your first playthrough.

 

[DJOGamer PT]

Bosses that have multiple phases are artificial difficulty. Bosses that have some stupid gimmick that you must do to defeath them, e.g. jump up to reflect lightning. Bosses that have infinite stamina, attack 4 million times, seamlessly switch between melee, ranged, magic weapons, have some stupid magic attack out of nowhere to "test" you, etc. Bosses that have a unique moveset

None of these things are inherently bad
It depends on how they are implemented in relation to the game's mechanics

Real difficulty would be just having an in-depth combat system, and having the player learn and master it, and then be able to apply it in every fight. Games like KCD and M&B come to mind for great examples of that. Of course with a combat system like that, you can't build the entire game around it

If the combat system alone is indeed great, then you can very well build an entire game around it

 

[Tyranicon]

The point is, real life combat cannot work like it does in FS games. Imagine if you practiced some martial art

Are you saying you actually believe martial artists can do real life combat?

Martial arts also include boxing and wrestling, two of the more useful real life unarmed forms. There's a lot of others that are useful as well, even including some of the asian ones that aren't scams.

But yeah, guns, machetes and baseball bats exist, and they mostly work very well.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Bosses that have multiple phases are artificial difficulty. Bosses that have some stupid gimmick that you must do to defeath them, e.g. jump up to reflect lightning. Bosses that have infinite stamina, attack 4 million times, seamlessly switch between melee, ranged, magic weapons, have some stupid magic attack out of nowhere to "test" you, etc. Bosses that have a unique moveset that you must memorize by dying to them 40 times. Basically FS games are built around artificial difficulty.

Forgive me Porky, but it's impossible to take you seriously when you're playing a game in a series that has been doing this since day one and then complain about it. That's how these games work, why would you play them expecting a combat system that accurately imitates how real life fighting work? It would be like going in the Monkey Island thread to complain that puzzles don't make sense because real life doesn't work like that. It really sounds like you're butthurt about dying a bunch of times and just want a reason to complain.

And that's literally not what "artificial difficulty" means. Keep crying as much as you'd like, but PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF GOD stop misusing terms like a random game journalist.

You are missing my point: over time, FS games went from being more like RPGs to being more like fighting games. Sure, there was always (perhaps too much) focus on boss fights, but in DaS1, it was coupled with an interesting world, and fighting regular mobs was more important compared to fighting bosses. In their later games, like ER and Sekiro, it's just running from boss fight to boss fight, nothing else to do.

The point is, real life combat cannot work like it does in FS games. Imagine if you practiced some martial art

Are you saying you actually believe martial artists can do real life combat?

It's ok dude, the game made you buttthurt and you need a break from it, no need to invent retarded reasons for why you are mad. I also played like shit and was plenty butthurt at Sekiro on my first run.

How did it make me butthurt if I am blowing through bosses? I am just saying it's not really a fun way to design a game. It's like FS fooled gamers into thinking this kind of "suffering" gameplay is good, when it's really not. These games are not fun at all, people just play them to brag to their friends or whatever.

 

[Multidirectional]

It's like FS fooled gamers into thinking this kind of "suffering" gameplay is good, when it's really not. These games are not fun at all, people just play them to brag to their friends or whatever.

I certainly don't play games when I don't find them fun. But I guess now we know why you decided to play this game, so you could post videos of you beating bosses here. I found Sekiro fun enough to finish it multiple times. Elden Ring I got tired of from a single playthrough, therefore I don't touch it anymore. And I couldn't be arsed with a lot of later bosses in it so I summoned help, while being upfront about it here. No, I don't give a fuck about bragging to anyone about my video game skills.

It is true though that combat design is not one of From's strongest points, especially when we're talking about sequels. While I do find challenge of Sekiro to be mostly really fair, I think if they made sequels to it they would most likely start going full retard just like they did with Souls games.

 

[PorkyThePaladin]

Fuck the sword saint cunt...

By this point I can regularly get past phase 1 and 2, but the third phase is wrecking me so far... He just spams that spear/gun bullshit non-stop. Also the way he recovers his posture in 0.1 seconds is retarded, as is the fucking field of battle. The dumbass flowers make it harder to see what the fuck he is doing, especially since many of the attacks come from the ground. He pulled that spear out of his ass, and thats where many of the attacks come from as well.