Serious Business - Is Dishonored better than Thief?

[HoboForEternity]

i seriously love dishonored but thief are still better at least as far as stealth/ level goes. combat wise dishonored wins

 

[JDR13]

That's a fair and consistent definition but it does leave us with almost no stealth games ever created. Thief might be the only one (and that's really only due to the swordplay being bad enough to be unusable), since all the other big names in stealth like Hitman, Splinter Cell, Deus Ex, Commandos and so on can all be played as action/murderfest games.

Have you tried Ghost of a Tale? I've only played it very briefly but it seems pretty decent. The description has it mislabeled as an action-RPG, but it's a pure stealth game.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/417290/Ghost_of_a_Tale/

 

[Child of Malkav]

since all the other big names in stealth like Hitman, Splinter Cell, Deus Ex, Commandos and so on can all be played as action/murderfest games.

You can but it's not easy. Good luck playing like that on Expert SCCT. Or Hitman on highest difficulty. Stealth games shouldn't have combat options at all. Look at Styx, or Aragami, or Dark 2013, or Ghost of a Tale. None have an attack button. Sure they have powers or supernatural abilities (the first 3) but combat is completely discoursged.

 

[DalekFlay]

You can but it's not easy. Good luck playing like that on Expert SCCT. Or Hitman on highest difficulty. Stealth games shouldn't have combat options at all. Look at Styx, or Aragami, or Dark 2013, or Ghost of a Tale. None have an attack button. Sure they have powers or supernatural abilities (the first 3) but combat is completely discoursged.

It's not easy to run around and gun people down willy-nilly in Deus Ex HR either, on the hardest mode.

 

[Exhuminator]

The original Thief is untouchable. Combat may be better in Dishonored, but you should not be fighting in Thief anyway. A Master Taffer is never seen, let alone fought with.

 

[Child of Malkav]

You can but it's not easy. Good luck playing like that on Expert SCCT. Or Hitman on highest difficulty. Stealth games shouldn't have combat options at all. Look at Styx, or Aragami, or Dark 2013, or Ghost of a Tale. None have an attack button. Sure they have powers or supernatural abilities (the first 3) but combat is completely discoursged.

It's not easy to run around and gun people down willy-nilly in Deus Ex HR either, on the hardest mode.

It is if you augment yourself with combat specific perks or augmentations. Stealth games shouldn't allow combat. Empowerment in stealth games comes from remaining hidden, observing, planning and executing that plan and in general completing objectives and navigating while being undetected. If a game allows you to sneak past an enemy while also allowing you to simply shoot that enemy in the head with a suppressed gun what's the point of sneaking around then? It feels like a complete waste of time. You artificially prolong the game by using distractions, creating opportunities, sneaking by, running the chance of being seen, reloading, or not and dealing with a lower score, probably less resources/rewards etc. instead of, you know, shooting the guy, done in 5 seconds.
This type of games I call, hybrid games, because they combine 2 or more genres (generally opposing genres like action and stealth) in a bad way. Yeah, you have multiple playstyles but they're all equally shallow, not deep enough to attract the action crowd, but enough to attract the stealth crowd because we're so desperate for SOME stealth games, that we're playing even these things. Which reminds me, someone said that RPG genre is dead. I'm like 'bruh, stealth is on life support', only moving a finger or two when gems like Mark of the Ninja, Aragami, Styx, Ghost of a Tale come out and how often does that happen? Games like these don't sell to ensure a future. Super niche genre. Hitman is doing alright now although sales wise I haven't heard good things about.

 

[DalekFlay]

It is if you augment yourself with combat specific perks or augmentations. Stealth games shouldn't allow combat.

Look it's fine if you guys want to go with this definition, but as said above by Lemming, that leaves us with VERY few actual stealth games that exist. Even Thief wouldn't count under this definition. I'd prefer something more lenient, personally, like "allows you to finish the game completely stealthily" or something. But hey... genre increasingly means nothing, look at our top 100 RPG list, so whatever. Who cares really.

 

[PrettyDeadman]

Dishonored has better graphics and, thus, is a superior game.

 

[Multidirectional]

So you chose to enjoy and immerse yourself in one game and not the other. Seems balanced to me.

One game is immersive, other isn't. I don't see your point.

We've finally come to a point where there are significant number of people on Codex claiming Thief and Dishonored are at similar quality levels. These are dark times.

 

[sullynathan]

I'd say they're about equal for me.

Wait what. You like dishonored THIS much too?

 

[sullynathan]

AI in both games are generally dumb, criticizing over the other is facetious. They don't compare to a splinter cell or MGS. Thief guards don't notice arrows removing torches.

 

[JarlFrank]

I'd say they're about equal for me.

Wait what. You like dishonored THIS much too?

I would marry Dishonored 2's level design if I could.

 

[Lemming42]

Have you tried Ghost of a Tale? I've only played it very briefly but it seems pretty decent. The description has it mislabeled as an action-RPG, but it's a pure stealth game.

https://store.steampowered.com/app/417290/Ghost_of_a_Tale/

Stealth games shouldn't have combat options at all. Look at Styx, or Aragami, or Dark 2013, or Ghost of a Tale. None have an attack button.

Haven't played any of these but they look interesting, thanks.

Hang on, though:

Stealth games shouldn't have combat options at all.

That would take Thief out, since levels like Return to the Cathedral and Strange Bedfellows nudge the player towards using combat against the creatures that have overrun the cathedral and the Hammerite temple.

You can but it's not easy. Good luck playing like that on Expert SCCT. Or Hitman on highest difficulty.

Not sure about this - in Hitman it was always easier to cause a massacre than it was to play the game properly, which is why the game has the ranking system to try and dissuade you (just like Dishonored). I remember playing Hitman 2 as a kid and getting so pissed off with the disguise mechanics that I just drew the silverballers and cleaned the level out to get to the next map. The new Hitman games even have cover shooting to make the maximum violence approach even easier.

I accept the definition of stealth game that you and JDR13 put forward but it still feels strange to me - it'd mean that Thief ceased to be a stealth game if everything about it was the same, but the sword and archery mechanics were improved. Like, Deux Ex HR clearly wants you to remain undetected in the same way Hitman games do, even if you ultimately decide to reject the core game mechanics and go on a shooting spree instead. The levels are filled with alarms, guards have states of awareness, there's air vents every 3 steps which allow you to bypass enemies, there's heavily signposted stealth routes through each map, etc.

The original Deus Ex I can kind of see being argued to be more of a stealth-FPS hybrid because ghosting places like Ocean Lab and Versalife requires you to start doing some fairly ridiculous shit and the game seems to want you to start shooting somewhere around the time you reach the Chinese ship, if not earlier, but HR is made with stealth in mind the whole way through.

 

[Multidirectional]

I would marry Dishonored 2's level design if I could.

I attempted to play it twice based on praises to level design, but ended up being bored out of my mind after few missions both times. I liked Prey a lot more.

Not sure about this - in Hitman it was always easier to cause a massacre than it was to play the game properly, which is why the game has the ranking system to try and dissuade you (just like Dishonored). I remember playing Hitman 2 as a kid and getting so pissed off with the disguise mechanics that I just drew the silverballers and cleaned the level out to get to the next map.

That's an issue with Hitman 2 specifically, AI gets suspicious in it incredibly fast.

 

[Shadowfang]

I did a zero kills, zero power upgrades and zero times caught playthrough on Dishonored 1 and i liked it, but never did i stop thinking of it inferior to Thief 1/2.
I liked the expansion where you played as Daud better, but still no where as good as Thief.

Dishonored is a good game, and clearly in the vein of the Thief series, but you can spot the dumbed down elements and flaws of the game right of the bat.
For the sake of brevity i am going to just name to small mechanical flaws, but i wouldn't mind going further with any of you.

1 - No footsteps while crouching.
On Thief 1/2 you would be less visible while crouching and althought you made less noise you still had to be aware of were you placed your feet. Avoiding metal floor over a coushy carpet was something that was always on my mind but on dishonored i had this little button that made like sound didn't matter and if i wanted to go further i could upgrade so i wouldn't do any sound even while moving up straight.

2 - Invisible leans.
Thief 1/2 lean is great. You can lean right, left and front! You can lean over an edge just to see how deep it is and what is underneath it. Since Thief there hasn't been a game that allowed you to do this, that i know of. Anyway, lean is great but you are exposing yourself so you can also be seen, but on Dishonored you were granted invisibility to the exposed part of your body while leaning. WTF!?

Although the game was satisfying, it felt a little dumbed down, and for a Thief veteran, it felt like i was playing a inferior product and could only wounder how could it would have been to go through the city with Thief's mechanics in it.

 

[JDR13]

I accept the definition of stealth game that you and JDR13 put forward but it still feels strange to me - it'd mean that Thief ceased to be a stealth game if everything about it was the same, but the sword and archery mechanics were improved. Like, Deux Ex HR clearly wants you to remain undetected in the same way Hitman games do, even if you ultimately decide to reject the core game mechanics and go on a shooting spree instead. The levels are filled with alarms, guards have states of awareness, there's air vents every 3 steps which allow you to bypass enemies, there's heavily signposted stealth routes through each map, etc.

To be clear, I never put forth any "definition". I simply pointed out that stealth and combat are not equally playable in Thief like they are in Deus Ex and Dishonored.

 

[DalekFlay]

To be clear, I never put forth any "definition". I simply pointed out that stealth and combat are not equally playable in Thief like they are in Deus Ex and Dishonored.

Thief just has shitty sword combat which is so bad you can't recover from being spotted using it, but the game is designed theoretically the same as Hitman/Splinter Cell where combat exists for when you fuck up. Also you can blackjack/arrow guards from a stealthy position, like you can silenced pistol headshot in the Deus Ex games. I'm not saying there's zero difference, you're definitely more effective in open combat in Dishonored. I just think you're exaggerating how big the difference is, and that a lot of that difference exists just because Thief's sword combat is ass.

Which leads us back to "if stealth means requiring no ability to rely on combat then very few stealth games exist."

 

[JDR13]

To be clear, I never put forth any "definition". I simply pointed out that stealth and combat are not equally playable in Thief like they are in Deus Ex and Dishonored.

Thief just has shitty sword combat which is so bad you can't recover from being spotted using it, but the game is designed theoretically the same as Hitman/Splinter Cell where combat exists for when you fuck up. Also you can blackjack/arrow guards from a stealthy position, like you can silenced pistol headshot in the Deus Ex games. I'm not saying there's zero difference, you're definitely more effective in open combat in Dishonored. I just think you're exaggerating how big the difference is, and that a lot of that difference exists just because Thief's sword combat is ass.

Which leads us back to "if stealth means requiring no ability to rely on combat then very few stealth games exist."

Sure bro. There isn't a big difference between Thief and Deus Ex/Dishonored when it comes to combat.

 

[Great Deceiver]

I did a zero kills, zero power upgrades and zero times caught playthrough on Dishonored 1 and i liked it, but never did i stop thinking of it inferior to Thief 1/2.
I liked the expansion where you played as Daud better, but still no where as good as Thief.

Dishonored is a good game, and clearly in the vein of the Thief series, but you can spot the dumbed down elements and flaws of the game right of the bat.
For the sake of brevity i am going to just name to small mechanical flaws, but i wouldn't mind going further with any of you.

1 - No footsteps while crouching.
On Thief 1/2 you would be less visible while crouching and althought you made less noise you still had to be aware of were you placed your feet. Avoiding metal floor over a coushy carpet was something that was always on my mind but on dishonored i had this little button that made like sound didn't matter and if i wanted to go further i could upgrade so i wouldn't do any sound even while moving up straight.

2 - Invisible leans.
Thief 1/2 lean is great. You can lean right, left and front! You can lean over an edge just to see how deep it is and what is underneath it. Since Thief there hasn't been a game that allowed you to do this, that i know of. Anyway, lean is great but you are exposing yourself so you can also be seen, but on Dishonored you were granted invisibility to the exposed part of your body while leaning. WTF!?

Although the game was satisfying, it felt a little dumbed down, and for a Thief veteran, it felt like i was playing a inferior product and could only wounder how could it would have been to go through the city with Thief's mechanics in it.

I agree with your sentiments in general, but in the interest of fairness, in Dishonored 2 enemies react much better and can certainly see you while you lean. It is mechanically a much better game than the first one.

 

[Egosphere]

what about thief 3 vs dishonored?

 

[DJOGamer PT]

The main design problem with Dishonered is that it's trying to be a stealth game with a far too overpowered character. Corvo ressembles more Skeletor than an thief/spy. Even with no magic he's already to powerful to be a stealth character because of his extreme agility, being pretty much silent when crouched, high damage (plus a really simple and easy combat system), arsenal of mostly deadly tools and the NPC's low awereness.

 

[DalekFlay]

Sure bro. There isn't a big difference between Thief and Deus Ex/Dishonored when it comes to combat.

I said you're exaggerating the difference, not that there isn't one. I think people are so used to ghosting in Thief they forget the game opens with a guard getting an arrow to the head and you carry a sword and train with it in the tutorial. They're different because of certain mechanics, but the goals are similar... fucked up stealth, attack to get out of it. Thief just sucks at it.

 

[JDR13]

Sure bro. There isn't a big difference between Thief and Deus Ex/Dishonored when it comes to combat.

I said you're exaggerating the difference, not that there isn't one. I think people are so used to ghosting in Thief they forget the game opens with a guard getting an arrow to the head and you carry a sword and train with it in the tutorial. They're different because of certain mechanics, but the goals are similar... fucked up stealth, attack to get out of it. Thief just sucks at it.

The point is that the difference is very significant. You only look foolish trying to argue otherwise.

 

[DalekFlay]

The point is that the difference is very significant. You only look foolish trying to argue otherwise.

I'm not arguing it isn't significant, I'm arguing the goals are the same. I'm arguing that if we define stealth by "can't use combat to negate it" then Thief doesn't count either and the genre basically doesn't exist.

 

[JDR13]

The point is that the difference is very significant. You only look foolish trying to argue otherwise.

I'm not arguing it isn't significant, I'm arguing the goals are the same. I'm arguing that if we define stealth by "can't use combat to negate it" then Thief doesn't count either and the genre basically doesn't exist.

I never claimed anything like that to begin with, so I have no idea who that argument is with.

And yes, you did seem to be arguing that the difference in combat wasn't that significant. At least until you realized how wrong you were.