Serious Business - Is Dishonored better than Thief?

[Child of Malkav]

NPCs in D2 detect you instantly, if you play with all custom difficulty markers on. Unless you abuse the Dark Vision power, you have no way of gathering information to plan an approach. If you play without powers then it's just trial an error until you know where every enemy is.
In Thief you can hide in shadows, you have sound propagation, you can use a scouting orb to assess your environment, NPCs locations and patrols and properly plan your actions. As well as in SC, Styx, Mark of the Ninja, Aragami, Hitman etc. In SC you gave a drone, sticky cameras, 3rd person view, shadows, in Styx you have 3rd person view, a clone which can be used for scouting but also for coordinated actions, shadows, in Hitman you gave 3rd person view, no shadows but a disguise system, in Aragami, shadows and 3rd person view, in MotN you have shadows, 2d view, visual representation of sounds etc.

 

[DalekFlay]

I sort of see what you're saying, but also sort of disagree. Personally I found Dishonored 2 to have easier stealth. This is because I'm accustomed to Thief's style of stealth where if you would be visibly harder to see, you'll probably be better hidden from AI (within reason for technology of the time - silhouette / line of sight detection wasn't implemented), and Dishonored 2 did have something close to this detection model. Dishonored 1, on the other hand, shadows did not conceal the player at all. I know there was the whole lean shit, but I didn't find myself leaning very often so I didn't really take advantage of it. But I did get caught a lot because I was expecting hiding in some pitch black corner while enemies walked in a bright lit area would keep me hidden, but they would see me perfectly. So Dishonored's less realistic stealth made it harder for me, and Dishonored 2 having more realistic stealth made it easier.

I get what you're saying, but once I knew light didn't matter I just quickly adjusted to it I guess.

As Malkav's baby boy says above, in Dishonored 2's highest difficulty enemies notice you pretty much instantly. I assume those saying it was still easy to ghost or whatever are accustomed to quicksaving and quickloading over and over to learn patterns, because there's no way it's easy to just ghost through immediately. Though I will also say how much you want to explore matters a lot. Blink makes it so you can quickly get through most areas if you just want to get to the exit and not explore them, which is something I could probably never do. Also if we're not talking ghost or even stealth runs at all then both games are indeed super easy just because of how simple it is to kill guards (or incapacitate them and run). So... it really all depends on your playstyle. My main point was that in Dishonored 2 enemies notice you MUCH more quickly, but how "hard" that makes the game depends on what you're doing.

 

[what am i doing]

I sort of see what you're saying, but also sort of disagree. Personally I found Dishonored 2 to have easier stealth. This is because I'm accustomed to Thief's style of stealth where if you would be visibly harder to see, you'll probably be better hidden from AI (within reason for technology of the time - silhouette / line of sight detection wasn't implemented), and Dishonored 2 did have something close to this detection model. Dishonored 1, on the other hand, shadows did not conceal the player at all. I know there was the whole lean shit, but I didn't find myself leaning very often so I didn't really take advantage of it. But I did get caught a lot because I was expecting hiding in some pitch black corner while enemies walked in a bright lit area would keep me hidden, but they would see me perfectly. So Dishonored's less realistic stealth made it harder for me, and Dishonored 2 having more realistic stealth made it easier.

I get what you're saying, but once I knew light didn't matter I just quickly adjusted to it I guess.

Fair enough, guess I just couldn't really adapt to it.

 

[DalekFlay]

Fair enough, guess I just couldn't really adapt to it.

Dishonored and Thief share a lot of similarities but I wouldn't say Dishonored has that same "sneaking through the shadows" feel in general. I said this a bit ago, but it's much more a "slink by on the rooftops" or "be the predator and swoop down from the rooftops" type of stealth game. I think Splinter Cell, third-person view aside, is much more like Thief than Dishonored is if we're talking playstyle basics.

 

[markec]

Fair enough, guess I just couldn't really adapt to it.

Dishonored and Thief share a lot of similarities but I wouldn't say Dishonored has that same "sneaking through the shadows" feel in general. I said this a bit ago, but it's much more a "slink by on the rooftops" or "be the predator and swoop down from the rooftops" type of stealth game. I think Splinter Cell, third-person view aside, is much more like Thief than Dishonored is if we're talking playstyle basics.

I would say that Deus Ex is the most similar game to Dishonored.

 

[Excommunicator]

This thread has well and truly triggered me

I absolutely love Thief

I do not love Dishonored



Thief has better combat than Dishonored

Also Prey is better than Dishonored

 

[Carrion]

After a few hours Dishonored definitely feels too easy. Food and healing items are everywhere, mana has been a complete non-issue so far since the early powers you get cost practically nothing, and the game seems way too generous with runes given how overpowered you seem right from the start. The only way I can see someone running out of something important is doing a full-combat playthrough and sucking at it. And even if you did run out of something, so what? You can always just sneak past enemies, which will probably be much easier than combat anyway. Granted, it's only the first actual mission, but I think you should be struggling at least a little bit at the start.

 

[JDR13]

If your goal is just to complete the task and finish the level, then yeah it's not very difficult. Getting the Ghost achievement with no HUD and zero fatalities was not that easy though on most levels.

 

[Excommunicator]

https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/...red-ditched-its-thief-shadow-stealth-mechanic

"As we are a bit perfectionist, we wanted it to work as in Thief and very realistically. With these two notions we got crazy and decided to eliminate the light parameters, because it was too difficult to have both."

[...]

"You might have noticed that our artists went kind of crazy to create the most detailed and interesting world," said Dinga Bakaba, game designer and associate producer, "so it was kind of contradictory to put some pitch black areas where you can't see very well."

"We couldn't get it to work as well as Thief so we abandoned it which is good because we wanted to focus on our pretty art instead"

 

[DalekFlay]

Oh no, they managed their project effectively and chose priorities rather than a clusterfuck of trying to do everything well. The horror.

 

[Fedora Master]

Dishonored is to stealth games as Pillars is to Crpgs: It came out during a dry spell so some people latched on to it because they were desperate but ultimately everything about the game is insufferable, the world, the npcs, the mechanics, everything.

 

[Ghulgothas]

Except Dishonored had a financially successful sequel.

 

[Excommunicator]

Except Dishonored had a financially successful sequel.

So successful in fact that they decided to shelve the series and focus on other things.

 

[Carrion]

Just finished the Lady Boyle mission. My initial impressions with Dishonored haven't changed much. My biggest issue with the game is related to its difficulty. I'm sure this stuff has been mentioned a million times, but I don't care.

To state the obvious, with all the powers the game just keeps getting easier. You don't get much of a feeling of satisfaction or achievement when you can just pretty much run rings around the guards. Mana consumption definitely should've been tied to the difficulty level, since even on the hardest level you can spam powers left and right and still keep running around with full mana and as many potions as you can carry. While the level design is kind of nice with all the different routes and nice environments, from a gameplay-perspective it's probably not that great. The game quite simply doesn't provide you with enough scenarios that would force you to be creative or put all of your skills to use. The easy option is always there. The AI is incapable of looking up, which makes all those high ledges and pipes way too convenient. Getting to your targets is also too simple, and in a couple of instances I just stumbled upon them by accident and took care of it without anyone having a clue of what just happened. Having a bunch of different ways to deal with a mission is loses its meaning when you can usually just walk to your target (again, make use of high spots and chances are that you can climb right into their chambers) and blast them, with the non-lethal options sometimes being outright trivial.

Now somebody's going to suggest playing without powers.The game's just not particularly interesting that way. The stealth mechanics are too limited, with line of sight being the only real factor in the absence of good lighting and sound systems. You're always silent when sneaking regardless of the surface, and even if you were able to manipulate light sources aside from candles it would make no difference. You can throw bottles to distract enemies, but that's about it regarding meaningful environmental interaction. The stealth system's simply not deep enough to carry the game on its own. I guess you could play it as some sort of a stealth shooter, but eh, it just feels wrong to me.

From what I understand, the Lady Boyle mission is considered one of the best if not the best in the game. I must say it did manage to get me interested. For one, it's the first case where the meat of the mission is the assassination itself. You only get a little atmospheric city part that also throws in a new, more dangerous enemy type, and then you reach the actual location which is bigger than the ones before it. The premise is also great: you need to figure out who to kill and, more importantly, how to do it without getting caught. The mission mixes social stealth with prohibited areas, and I love that kind of stuff. There are even some anti-magic zones thrown in for good measure. The issue? You talk to two people on the first floor, and they tell you who your target is and hand you a very convenient way of dealing with her (lethal or non-lethal). It's all handed to you on a silver platter. What the hell? This mission should've been a goddamn riddle that requires you to explore, pull off all kinds of stunts and make logical deductions to find out more about your target, and then figure out some clever way to commit murder without getting swarmed by guards. Throw in the best sides of Thief and Hitman and go wild. Instead the whole thing just kind of deflates and the riddle solves itself before it's even been properly presented. And yes, I know the target is randomized on each playthrough, which in all fairness is really cool — it just didn't lead to a very good end result for me.

edit: I almost forgot the absolutely worst thing about the game. It's the tedium of clicking on all NPCs at the pub half a dozen times before and after each mission to hear what they have to say. And of course, reading those "this character is busy" messages in between because why not. Just include one line per NPC or program an actual dialogue tree. Argh.

 

[DalekFlay]

1. It's harder if you go full stealth and try getting all the collectible stuff. However yes, it's a mostly easy game.

2. Dishonored 2 solves the "they don't notice you up high" issue, and they notice you much faster in general.

3. It's more an assassination game than a pure stealth game. It's inspired by Thief (and others) but doesn't play exactly like it. It's more about slinking across rooftops and slitting throats than hiding in shadows, which is why they focused on other areas. Not saying a light and shadow system wouldn't have been welcome, but I'm usually perched above waiting to go in for the quick kill/knock-out, rather than sneaking behind dudes.

4. Not everyone cares about having a tough challenge in their games.

 

[Carrion]

1. It's harder if you go full stealth and try getting all the collectible stuff. However yes, it's a mostly easy game.

I've been fairly thorough, collecting all the runes and charms, but I've not been obsessive with searching every single room or collecting all the loot. I actually started off with the mindset of having an "imperfect" playthrough where shit occasionally hits the fan, but I've kind of reverted to avoiding detection and only killing my targets, whenever there's not a more interesting non-lethal option available.

3. It's more an assassination game than a pure stealth game. It's inspired by Thief (and others) but doesn't play exactly like it. It's more about slinking across rooftops and slitting throats than hiding in shadows, which is why they focused on other areas. Not saying a light and shadow system wouldn't have been welcome, but I'm usually perched above waiting to go in for the quick kill/knock-out, rather than sneaking behind dudes.

The thing is, the assasinations are a very small part of the game, almost like an afterthought. It's not like Hitman where you really need to think about how to kill your target, make a plan and execute it. There are lots of ways to take out your target, but they seem so simple and straightforward that they don't seem to warrant another playthrough. I think putting more effort into this aspect could've improved the game quite a bit.

If by assassination you mean plain old murder (e.g. killing guards), then yeah, playing it like that might be more entertaining. It'd be even easier, though. That's kind of the problem — the most "fun" stuff feels the least rewarding.

4. Not everyone cares about having a tough challenge in their games.

That's why difficulty levels exist. The game doesn't have to be punishingly hard, but at some point it should put your skills into a proper test. That's where the fun comes from, after all. If there's no challenge to overcome, what's the point of playing a game? It's not like anyone's going to play Dishonored for its story, even if the setting is nice.

It's not much fun if your mage has Abi-Dalzim's Horrid Wilting but you're only facing xvarts and gibberlings.

 

[DalekFlay]

I've been fairly thorough, collecting all the runes and charms, but I've not been obsessive with searching every single room or collecting all the loot. I actually started off with the mindset of having an "imperfect" playthrough were shit occasionally hits the fan, but I've kind of reverted to avoiding detection and only killing my targets, whenever there's not a more interesting non-lethal option available.

Yeah I'm agreeing it's too easy, just saying getting the "beat it without ever being seen" and "beat it without ever using powers" achievements are a way to add difficulty to it and lots of F9ing. Whether you're into that or not, I dunno, and I still wouldn't say it's Dark Souls difficult or whatever.

The thing is, the assasinations are a very small part of the game, almost like an afterthought. It's not like Hitman where you really need to think about how to kill your target, make a plan and execute it. There are lots of ways to take out your target, but they seem so simple and straightforward that they don't seem to warrant another playthrough. I think putting more effort into this aspect could've improved the game quite a bit.

If by assassination you mean plain old murder (e.g. killing guards), then yeah, playing it like that might be more entertaining. It'd be even easier, though. That's kind of the problem — the most "fun" stuff feels the least rewarding.

I've played the game through multiple ways and by far my favorite was when I acted like a ruthless assasin. Perched on a rooftop overlooking the guards, seeing an opportunity and diving down to slit one's throat, then zooming back into obscurity before his buddy comes back. I think that kind of vibe is what they were going for, plus blinking is all about moving from one spot to another, making it easy to hide behind things. So that's why I think hiding in the shadows took a backseat at the design phase, and shadow stealth was culled to keep development on budget. Not saying this is great or anything, but I think they made the right decision for the focus of their game.

 

[bddevil]

Thief is the gold standard of stealth games, and it will take some juggernaut niche game focused purely around stealth to ever beat. Lightning and sound play a huge role in Thief, and I don't think this is interesting for modern gamers.

I like dishonored games, mostly due to level design. Ive played D1 and D2 with all the DLCs.
D2 has great level design, especially for games nowadays.

The problem with great level design in Dishonored or any action hybrid like Deus Ex games, is that the great design can only really be appreciated in a stealthy approach. I mean, sure, you can kinda be this crazy assassin, but you lose out on the intricacies of the map by just waltzing through it.

The first dishonored is probably the most marred by this, as regular stealth is bland there, yet if you go with action you're missing out on design. So you're kinda cheating yourself from fully enjoying handcrafted, once-in-a-decade kind of level design if you're not playing stealthy. It's a double edged sword. I think D2 improved this a bit by making some of the more intricate levels environment/time dependent and less playstyle dependent.

 

[Carrion]

Finished Dishonored. A couple of the late-game levels had some nice sections with tallboys and tighter security measures, and I wish the game had a bit more of that. Return to the Tower felt like the climax in many ways and pretty much showed all the tricks the game had up its sleeve.

How does Dishonored 2 compare to the first game? Are there any essential DLCs I should play before starting the sequel?

 

[toro]

Finished Dishonored. A couple of the late-game levels had some nice sections with tallboys and tighter security measures, and I wish the game had a bit more of that. Return to the Tower felt like the climax in many ways and pretty much showed all the tricks the game had up its sleeve.

How does Dishonored 2 compare to the first game? Are there any essential DLCs I should play before starting the sequel?

Dishonored's DLCs are the best. Play them before Dishonored 2.

 

[Child of Malkav]

Finished Dishonored. A couple of the late-game levels had some nice sections with tallboys and tighter security measures, and I wish the game had a bit more of that. Return to the Tower felt like the climax in many ways and pretty much showed all the tricks the game had up its sleeve.

How does Dishonored 2 compare to the first game? Are there any essential DLCs I should play before starting the sequel?

The DLCs are worth it. The knife of Dunwall and The Brigmore Witches. It also helps you understand the story of D2 a little bit better.

 

[Ghulgothas]

How does Dishonored 2 compare to the first game? Are there any essential DLCs I should play before starting the sequel?

Knife and Brigmore are worth a go-through before making the jump to 2. Captain of Industry and Delilah's Masterwork in particular.
Stay away from Dunwall City Trials unless you want basic test-trial stuff.

How does Dishonored 2 compare to the first game? Are there any essential DLCs I should play before starting the sequel?

An improvement in every way that matters. The intricacy in the level design in particular. Do your first playthrough as Emily, her powers complement the design better, are more universally useful in pacifist runs and have got really entertaining synergies.

 

[Nano]

If there's no challenge to overcome, what's the point of playing a game?

Might be difficult for you to understand, but video games are seen as power fantasies by a lot of players. They enjoy being demigods.

 

[Carrion]

Might be difficult for you to understand, but video games are seen as power fantasies by a lot of players. They enjoy being demigods.

They can be demigods all they like, on the Easy difficulty level or while crushing ants on their home porch. I have no qualms about eventually becoming super powerful in games, but it has to feel deserved. You need to get your ass kicked first, so that returning the favor feels satisfying. What the hell do I care about "a lot of players" anyway? It's those people that are to blame for the lack of nice things in the first place.

I'd say that, in the end, the biggest culprit here isn't even your power level but the mission design. The level layouts are no doubt very nice, but they're not used nearly as well as they'd deserve. I replayed the last mission because I felt kind of bad for rewiring all the security systems the first time around, and it literally took me less than five minutes excluding the boat ride and a couple of NPC monologues. The rest of the game really is about the same. I think this is what separates Dishonored from, say, Thief (another stealth game) and Hitman (another assassin game), which at their best really shine when it comes to mission design.

In Thief, the missions are built around exploration. You can't just beeline to your objective, you really have to look around and be thorough with each level, as there may be a complex chain of objectives to complete or simply lots of mandatory loot to collect before you can finish the level. In Hitman there are a number of different ways you can tackle a mission, most of which are pretty short if executed properly, but to be able to pull that off you need to spend some time getting to know the level, observing NPC patterns, figuring out ways to do things without being caught, and so on. The levels are puzzles that you need to solve using the tools the game gives you, and only with careful planning and precise timing can you make it all work. Dishonored has elements from both (open levels with lots to explore, different ways to take out your targets), but it's all laid out for you. You always have a clear route to your target. You can explore, but the levels don't require it, and the tough places are almost always optional. If there's an obstacle, the way around it is always nearby or otherwise obvious. The game makes sure you'll always know what the non-lethal option is, instead of making you actively look for it. As a result, there's never that rewarding feeling you get from those other series. The closest Dishonored gets is the aforementioned Return to the Tower mission where it momentarily seems to throw everything it has at you.

Looking forward to the DLC nonetheless.

 

[bddevil]

Might be difficult for you to understand, but video games are seen as power fantasies by a lot of players. They enjoy being demigods.

They can be demigods all they like, on the Easy difficulty level or while crushing ants on their home porch. I have no qualms about eventually becoming super powerful in games, but it has to feel deserved. You need to get your ass kicked first, so that returning the favor feels satisfying. What the hell do I care about "a lot of players" anyway? It's those people that are to blame for the lack of nice things in the first place.

I'd say that, in the end, the biggest culprit here isn't even your power level but the mission design. The level layouts are no doubt very nice, but they're not used nearly as well as they'd deserve. I replayed the last mission because I felt kind of bad for rewiring all the security systems the first time around, and it literally took me less than five minutes excluding the boat ride and a couple of NPC monologues. The rest of the game really is about the same. I think this is what separates Dishonored from, say, Thief (another stealth game) and Hitman (another assassin game), which at their best really shine when it comes to mission design.

In Thief, the missions are built around exploration. You can't just beeline to your objective, you really have to look around and be thorough with each level, as there may be a complex chain of objectives to complete or simply lots of mandatory loot to collect before you can finish the level. In Hitman there are a number of different ways you can tackle a mission, most of which are pretty short if executed properly, but to be able to pull that off you need to spend some time getting to know the level, observing NPC patterns, figuring out ways to do things without being caught, and so on. The levels are puzzles that you need to solve using the tools the game gives you, and only with careful planning and precise timing can you make it all work. Dishonored has elements from both (open levels with lots to explore, different ways to take out your targets), but it's all laid out for you. You always have a clear route to your target. You can explore, but the levels don't require it, and the tough places are almost always optional. If there's an obstacle, the way around it is always nearby or otherwise obvious. The game makes sure you'll always know what the non-lethal option is, instead of making you actively look for it. As a result, there's never that rewarding feeling you get from those other series. The closest Dishonored gets is the aforementioned Return to the Tower mission where it momentarily seems to throw everything it has at you.

Looking forward to the DLC nonetheless.

What you're saying is true for most modern games though. A lot of newer Hitman games shove the different ways to approach things in your face. Same with Deus Ex. I get what you mean, exactly.

That Lady Boyle mission you mentioned, the NPCs are random so it's random who will tell you everything, but as long as you talk to everyone, you will eventually find them. I agree it would be way better that on high difficulty some of these obvious ways would be removed. This is what's wrong with difficulty levels nowadays - they just control stealth factor/sponge hp level and damage output. The game mechanics is still based on baseline stuff that's static.

Thief is in its own echelon and it's telling that attempts of its recreation in modern gaming were failures. Modern gamers don't "get" Thief and its point.