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Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

Space Satan

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Some stuff came out
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  • A new tech-web spreads out from a central point, offering 360 degrees of choices that softens the old game's propensity towards predictable upgrade paths.
  • The technologies themselves do that Civ thing of improving the player's capabilities as a resource gatherer, military force, tech researcher and builder. They offer a layman's guide to the potentiality of the future, blending fairly obvious advancements with the esoteric and bizarre.
  • For Civ 5 fans, the most frustrating part of the fantasy has been diplomacy, during which players seek to manipulate and manage seemingly sociopath, deranged, moronic rivals. It is, by far, the weakest part of the game, often coming across as a thinly veiled front for gameplay exigencies, rather than as a simulation of stone cold international relations.
    According to McDonough, work has been done to tweak the diplomacy section, although a thorough overhaul doesn't look likely. "Yes, we have been endeavoring to make diplomacy more interesting," he said. "The leaders are fictitious and not historical characters so that gives us a little more room to work with, to make them change over time and gain perspectives based on activities in the game. We want them to be a lot less predictable and more sophisticated."
  • You may have your next 15 moves planned out but when a siege worm shows up on the border it changes the entire calculus and you really have to stay on your toes," added Miller
  • Players can build futuristic wonders with evocative names like “The Gene Vault” and “The Panopticon,” the latter of which is a sort of super-spy system that provides a variety of bonuses.
  • One map type, called “Vulcan,” was described as “the opposite of an archipelago,” which means there are no oceans, just lakes and small seas.
  • The most dramatic of these new terrain features is the glowing green mist known as the “miasma.” In the early game, you’ll mainly be concerned with keeping your forces out of the alien gas, since the miasma will inflict damage to units that end their turn in it. As you advance through the tech web and upgrade your Workers you’ll have the option to remove the miasma, making your territory a bit more hospitable and Earth-like.
  • For players who follow the Harmony Affinity, however, there’s a dramatically different option. You can work on adapting your people to the new planetary environment to such an extent that the miasma clouds actually provide healing, rather than damage
  • At that point it can become advantageous to research the “Restore Miasma” ability for your Workers, which will allow you to begin flooding every spare hex of your territory with the green clouds — toxic to other players, but life-giving to your new human-alien hybrid soldiers.
  • Unique units and buildings are one feature from past Civ games that won’t be showing up in Beyond Earth
  • Most of the differentiation between civilizations at the game’s outset comes from the pre-game options you choose for your colonists, cargo, and spacecraft — a system Pete described as “almost like deckbuilding” — while later in the game your units will be distinct from those of your neighbors thanks to the technology and Affinity you’ve chosen to pursue.
  • There are no Great People in Civilization: Beyond Earth, so you won’t be seeing some futuristic version of Elvis Presley culture-bombing your borders
  • Much of the in-game functionality of the Great People system has instead been shifted into the sky with the new Orbital Layer, where, for example, military satellites provide the area bonuses previously found on Great Generals.
  • Satellites come with a whole slew of interesting strategic options, since they can’t be moved once placed and their lives are temporary, meaning their orbits will eventually decay and they’ll crash down to the surface, depositing wreckage that can be excavated by Explorers for tech or resource bonuses.
  • City-states are also gone in Beyond Earth, but much of the role they played in Civ 5 is now the domain of “stations.” Stations are independent businesses that take up a single tile (no more city-states hogging the best territory, hooray!) that establish themselves throughout the map over the early stages of the game. Stations offer opportunities for trade (via vulnerable trader units that will travel back and forth from your cities to the station) of particular kinds of resources and bonuses.
  • For those stations closest to your first cities, you’ll often have a chance to choose which type of station they will be, so you’ll be able to tailor them to your interests and play-style, somewhat. Your active trade routes aren’t unlimited however, and stations will only trade with one civilization at a time — and they may become less friendly towards you if you neglect them for too long. In this way stations function as something “halfway between city-states and shared tile improvements,” according to Pete
 

Space Satan

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Franco-Iberia ? (unknown)
People's African Union Samatar Jama Barre (+diplomacy, +growth, +health, -production, -religion)
Kavithan Protectorate Kavitha Thakur (+religion, +growth, +culture, -military training, -infrastructure, -science)
Polystralia ? (unknown)
Slavic Federation General Kozlov (+military, +20% satellite duration)
 
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wtf is this shit?
uniques are one of the reasons mods like ffh2 are so much fun, and they've been axed.
time limited satellites? what kind of moron put them in orbit? south korea?
rest of the "new features" are just a bunch of renamed stuff from the same civ5 or some other previous game or just some baseless self-advertising.
 

Galdred

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Is that what happened to XCOM under Firaxis' watch? What's the RPG Codex consensus on that game (and the expansion)?
Jake Solomon, the lead on XCOM, actually knew what he wanted to do but was overridden by executives and play testers who couldn't understand time units.

The consensus seems to be that XCOM is an ok tactics game that is good for what it is.
The problem was not the Time Unit. The new 2 action system works as well. The problem of the tactical map is that there are not enough maps to replay the game several times without getting lots of duplicates, and the opponents do nothing before being "activated", which is just silly.
The problem is that they have axed the whole geoscape, and replace it with a "chose one mission among these 3, because hard choices" screen. It feels like a good board game instead of a great simulation.
 

Modron

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Someone should link that post release interview where he described how they went from a updated xcom faithful to the old to NuXcom.
 

Jaedar

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Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
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American Reclamation Corporation Suzanne Marjorie Fielding (+science, +infrastructure, +production, -culture, -religion)
Brasilia ? (+military)
Pan-Asian Cooperative Daoming Sochua (+production, +culture +energy, +science, -military, -diplomacy, -religion)
Franco-Iberia ? (unknown)
People's African Union Samatar Jama Barre (+diplomacy, +growth, +health, -production, -religion)
Kavithan Protectorate Kavitha Thakur (+religion, +growth, +culture, -military training, -infrastructure, -science)
Polystralia ? (unknown)
Slavic Federation General Kozlov (+military, +20% satellite duration)
Those be some serious boring bonuses and penalties. Where's my +25% to attack, or max city pop reduction and so on?
 

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Someone mentioned above that modern game designers are uncultured swine, who aren't interested in anything interesting, and that, I must say, is why video game stories are so lousy. I don't think video games will ever aspire to the same heights of storytelling as literature, but they could at least take a few tips. And they did! they did! In older games I notice nods to things like Homer's Odyssey and whatnot, and in Alpha Centauri I mentioned they must have been inspired by things like 1984 and maybe Solaris.

In his interview on Troy Goodfellow's podcast, Brian Reynolds that he was listening to "Les Miz" when he was writing the dialogue for SMAC, which is why some of the diplo choices are so grandiose when you can accuse other faction leaders of villainy.

This game is going to be shit I tell you. The people in charge of it have no idea what they are doing. But it will sell millions.

Is that what happened to XCOM under Firaxis' watch? What's the RPG Codex consensus on that game (and the expansion)?
http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/index.php?threads/xcom-enemy-unknown-or-what-couldve-been.80462/

Read it and weep.
 

IDtenT

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Divinity: Original Sin
Someone mentioned above that modern game designers are uncultured swine, who aren't interested in anything interesting, and that, I must say, is why video game stories are so lousy. I don't think video games will ever aspire to the same heights of storytelling as literature, but they could at least take a few tips. And they did! they did! In older games I notice nods to things like Homer's Odyssey and whatnot, and in Alpha Centauri I mentioned they must have been inspired by things like 1984 and maybe Solaris. But in these modern games I find such nods totally lacking. I saw some interview with a writer on the Project Eternity team, where she was asked about her literary influences, and she basically listed a few pop fantasy novels, then moved on to a bunch of video game shit. I think some video games are good and all, like Planescape: Torment, but they really aren't the medium for new and interesting ideas. They all seems to comb over novels for their ideas (Fallout took much from classics like Canticle for Libowitz), so as 'influence,' they're second hand.
I guess the main difference between the old and new generation of game designers is that today's designers grew up with video games as their main and probably only hobby, while the guys from the 90's and back came into gaming as adults and had more diverse backgrounds and interests.
I think you've figured it all out.
 

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  • The Pan-Asian Cooperative: Led by Daoming Sochua, the Pan-Asian Cooperative specializes in culture, energy, and science, while downplaying military, diplomacy and religion. This faction is based on the People's Republic of China and bands together many former Asian nations like South Korea and Japan. The PAC emphasize in the technology, housing high-tech corporations and high-level research and development.
  • The Peoples' African Union: Led by Samatar Jama Barre, the People's African Union embraces diplomacy, growth, and health. Exercising the principles of self-reliance, the united African nations downplay production and religion. With ample mineral and biological resources, the African nations are now a haven for exploration beyond its borders.
  • Kavithan Protectorate: Led by the prophet Kavitha Thakur, the Protectorate believe in religion, growth, and culture. Having set aside any need for military, infrastructure, or science, the Protectorate houses one-sixth of planet's population within its borders and seeks to spread the word of their prophet across the entire world.
  • American Reclamation Corporation: Led by Suzanne Majorie Fielding, the ARC focuses on science, infrastructure, and production, concerning itself less with culture and religion. The ARC is the world's first and foremost megacorporation, comprising the third-largest economy in the world. Using their vast resources that includes gobs of capital, the ARC can fund just about any scientific endeavor.
 

Storyfag

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The problem was not the Time Unit. The new 2 action system works as well.

No it fucking doesn't. TU's allowed for multiple discreet actions. 2 "large" actions are a fucking joke.

The problem of the tactical map is that there are not enough maps to replay the game several times without getting lots of duplicates, and the opponents do nothing before being "activated", which is just silly.
The problem is that they have axed the whole geoscape, and replace it with a "chose one mission among these 3, because hard choices" screen. It feels like a good board game instead of a great simulation.

Here you are correct.
 

Galdred

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The problem was not the Time Unit. The new 2 action system works as well.

No it fucking doesn't. TU's allowed for multiple discreet actions. 2 "large" actions are a fucking joke.

It does give more flexibility, but at the same time, TUs gives incentive to move the minimal distance each turn, to save as much as possible for shooting. 1 move + 1 action makes moving much less penalizing. You still forfeit your action by moving too much, but at least, the optimal play is not always to move 1 tile anymore before contact.
It's not that different from many RPG or Tactical RPG systems where you either have 1 move and 1 action (Final Fantasy Tactics, Fire Emblem, Blackguards, Drums of War...), or something close (most DnD game). I have never heard any of these games be called a joke because of lack of TUs, so I really think it is not a major problem.
 
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  • The most dramatic of these new terrain features is the glowing green mist known as the “miasma.” In the early game, you’ll mainly be concerned with keeping your forces out of the alien gas, since the miasma will inflict damage to units that end their turn in it. As you advance through the tech web and upgrade your Workers you’ll have the option to remove the miasma, making your territory a bit more hospitable and Earth-like.
  • For players who follow the Harmony Affinity, however, there’s a dramatically different option. You can work on adapting your people to the new planetary environment to such an extent that the miasma clouds actually provide healing, rather than damage
  • At that point it can become advantageous to research the “Restore Miasma” ability for your Workers, which will allow you to begin flooding every spare hex of your territory with the green clouds — toxic to other players, but life-giving to your new human-alien hybrid soldiers.
Now where have I've seen this before? But hey, they are totally not making an Alpha Centauri game. A shitty CiV rip-off of Alpha Centauri on the other hand...

I have zero faith in them making a decent game after CiV and XCOM. That article about what XCOM was like before retards got their hands on it... it makes me rage every time. What a senseless waste. And I must say that for me TU or AP are way preferable over the system that we got in XCOM. Flexibility is indeed the reason. Why the hell can't I fire off a shot, then move behind cover? Is that something unrealistic to do or was that just too complicated for their target group?
 

Galdred

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I have zero faith in them making a decent game after CiV and XCOM. That article about what XCOM was like before retards got their hands on it... it makes me rage every time. What a senseless waste. And I must say that for me TU or AP are way preferable over the system that we got in XCOM. Flexibility is indeed the reason. Why the hell can't I fire off a shot, then move behind cover? Is that something unrealistic to do or was that just too complicated for their target group?

With high enough reactions and AP, you can move, shoot several shots without taking return fire, and go back behind a wall so that you opponent cannot shoot back during his turn, even though you spent 80% of your TU in sight of the opponent, so we could argue that it is somewhat unrealistic, but it is bound to happen with an alternate turn structure anyway. That's why many games(the tactical RPGs I quoted before : Final Fantasy Tactics, Fire Emblem, BlackGuards, Drums of War) do not allow the units to move after hitting (it gets even worse with melee : you could have one guy move one tile, use 80% of his TU hitting the target, and pull back to let the spot empty for someone else, allowing you to hit the same guy in melee with your whole squad in a turn without even needing to surround him(it was the case in the board game Descent : Journeys in the Dark for instance. It had 2 actions, but you could split your move before and after the attack).
Both approachs can make sense if the underlying game is solid, it really depends on the points the game wants to emphasize.
 

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Flexibility is indeed the reason. Why the hell can't I fire off a shot, then move behind cover? Is that something unrealistic to do or was that just too complicated for their target group?
That does have the advantage of leveling the field between what you can do and what the AI does.

The general advantage of a sleeker system is that it puts more focus on what you do, than on the exact micromanagement of how you do it.
 
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I really don't see why retreating behind cover after firing would be a problem. Is it because it seems unrealistic? Turn based combat will always include some element of abstraction and limiting player to just one move per turn is hardly going to change that. Quite the opposite - why does moving one hex / square cost exactly the same as moving 10? Is it because it's unbalanced? I don't see why it would be, that's what reaction fire / interrupt is for. You move out of cover and the enemy has a chance to fire at you. What's the problem?
 

tuluse

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With high enough reactions and AP, you can move, shoot several shots without taking return fire, and go back behind a wall so that you opponent cannot shoot back during his turn, even though you spent 80% of your TU in sight of the opponent, so we could argue that it is somewhat unrealistic, but it is bound to happen with an alternate turn structure anyway. That's why many games(the tactical RPGs I quoted before : Final Fantasy Tactics, Fire Emblem, BlackGuards, Drums of War) do not allow the units to move after hitting (it gets even worse with melee : you could have one guy move one tile, use 80% of his TU hitting the target, and pull back to let the spot empty for someone else, allowing you to hit the same guy in melee with your whole squad in a turn without even needing to surround him(it was the case in the board game Descent : Journeys in the Dark for instance. It had 2 actions, but you could split your move before and after the attack).
Both approachs can make sense if the underlying game is solid, it really depends on the points the game wants to emphasize.
That's why x-com has interrupts.
 

Galdred

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I really don't see why retreating behind cover after firing would be a problem. Is it because it seems unrealistic? Turn based combat will always include some element of abstraction and limiting player to just one move per turn is hardly going to change that. Quite the opposite - why does moving one hex / square cost exactly the same as moving 10? Is it because it's unbalanced? I don't see why it would be, that's what reaction fire / interrupt is for. You move out of cover and the enemy has a chance to fire at you. What's the problem?
It is not a problem indeed : Turn based requires some abstraction indeed. My point was just that you have to sacrifice something whichever route you chose to go. TU are not a perfect answer. It really depends on what you want the part of the gameplay you want to emphasize.

That's why x-com has interrupts.

Indeed, but high reaction differential somewhat negates interrupt. + Interrupts take control away from the player, when the TU system was supposed to give more control. C&C...
 

tuluse

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It is not a problem indeed : Turn based requires some abstraction indeed. My point was just that you have to sacrifice something whichever route you chose to go. TU are not a perfect answer. It really depends on what you want the part of the gameplay you want to emphasize.



Indeed, but high reaction differential somewhat negates interrupt. + Interrupts take control away from the player, when the TU system was supposed to give more control. C&C...
Yeah, well the reaction time seems intended to me. The devs wanted super fast dudes who could pop out shoot and pop back before getting hit. So it's not a flaw, and if you don't like it's mathematically correctable using the same system.

JA2 has interrupts which give the player even more control.

2 action system sux, I can't believe there are people in the world who can't understand action points given a short explanation and no more than 10 minutes of play time to get used to them.
 
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Yes, exactly that - give the player control when it comes to interrupts, JA2 style. It makes fucking sense - say you move your sniper behind some cover, hit end turn and suddenly a metric ton of armored angry alien with a gun bigger than your soldier shows up on your flank. You get an interrupt and - you waste it by firing your pistol at him that doesn’t even scratch the paint on his armor? No, give me control so that I can use my remaining TU / APs for what I want to do - run like hell, drop smoke grenade, something useful. Don't hide my options in the name of streamlining the combat system.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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It does give more flexibility, but at the same time, TUs gives incentive to move the minimal distance each turn, to save as much as possible for shooting. 1 move + 1 action makes moving much less penalizing. You still forfeit your action by moving too much, but at least, the optimal play is not always to move 1 tile anymore before contact.
It's not that different from many RPG or Tactical RPG systems where you either have 1 move and 1 action (Final Fantasy Tactics, Fire Emblem, Blackguards, Drums of War...), or something close (most DnD game). I have never heard any of these games be called a joke because of lack of TUs, so I really think it is not a major problem.
You've never heard jap "tactical" "crpgs" be called a joke? Well, here's one one me: they're a joke and basing an XCOM game on them is a fucking travesty (the shit move+action thing is unfortunately not the only thing nuXCOM tactical battle mechanics copy from them). But since it's a console game then no surprises there, Firaxis declined hard and are now an enemy.
 

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Yes, exactly that - give the player control when it comes to interrupts, JA2 style. It makes fucking sense - say you move your sniper behind some cover, hit end turn and suddenly a metric ton of armored angry alien with a gun bigger than your soldier shows up on your flank. You get an interrupt and - you waste it by firing your pistol at him that doesn’t even scratch the paint on his armor? No, give me control so that I can use my remaining TU / APs for what I want to do - run like hell, drop smoke grenade, something useful. Don't hide my options in the name of streamlining the combat system.
Otoh giving the player too much options can make the game too easy, and if you adjust the difficulty up in other ways, not necessarily as fun to play still.
 
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Well maybe if they could program a competent AI that can also uses those interrupts they wouldn't have to streamline the game to hell. Oh, who am I kidding, they would have done it anyway. We can't have interrupts breaking apart AI / player turns, that would confuse the target audience. Seriously, giving player options is not about making the game easier, it's about giving him more control in tactical combat instead of more abstract rules. I want to be able to shoot and move. I want to be able to reload and fire. I want to be able to move during my interrupt. I want a true field of view that allows me to surprise the enemy. I want a real inventory system. And I want the AI to use it all as well. And that is why when I think of the best turn based tactical combat, I don't think of any jrpg-s or of the new XCOM, I think of a game that gives me that.
 

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  • For Civ 5 fans, the most frustrating part of the fantasy has been diplomacy, during which players seek to manipulate and manage seemingly sociopath, deranged, moronic rivals. It is, by far, the weakest part of the game, often coming across as a thinly veiled front for gameplay exigencies, rather than as a simulation of stone cold international relations.
Actually sounds like a rather good depiction of international politics to me. (Even if you take the economic puppeteers, geostrategic advisors and internal politicking into account, that our news usually fail to mention.)

And guys, I know Codex is all about derailing threads and stuff, but might you consider discussing XCOM in an XCOM-thread?
 

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