Sid Meier's Civilization: Beyond Earth

[Johannes]

Well maybe if they could program a competent AI that can also uses those interrupts they wouldn't have to streamline the game to hell. Oh, who am I kidding, they would have done it anyway. We can't have interrupts breaking apart AI / player turns, that would confuse the target audience. Seriously, giving player options is not about making the game easier, it's about giving him more control in tactical combat instead of more abstract rules. I want to be able to shoot and move. I want to be able to reload and fire. I want to be able to move during my interrupt. I want a true field of view that allows me to surprise the enemy. I want a real inventory system. And I want the AI to use it all as well. And that is why when I think of the best turn based tactical combat, I don't think of any jrpg-s or of the new XCOM, I think of a game that gives me that.

That's a pipe dream game you're thinking of though, nowhere I've seen an AI use such a complex system sensibly.

 

[Zero Credibility]

What, a game with APs that lets you take multiple actions freely, interrupt system that lets you take actions other than firing, real inventory and field of view? No pipe dream, just good old JA2 (1.13). True, AI is often not up to the challenge but it can and does use all of these. If you want to compare new XCOM to the best tactical turn based combat, don't compare it to jrpg-s, compare it to this game. TUs were cut out for the same reason the strategic layer of the game got gutted as well - to make the game more streamlined, more accessible. That article linked on the last page shows that infuriatingly clear. And it's for this reason (and what they showed in and are bringing over from CiV) that I have zero faith in this team ever creating a good Alpha Centauri sequel, spiritual or real.

 

[Johannes]

JA2 has shit AI as you say. It's a great simulation but as a tactical game, it's nothing too special.

 

[Infinitron]

I agree with Johannes(!)

Blackguards just wouldn't have been the same if I could slash at somebody and then retreat. THe move-and-attack system changes the dynamic of gameplay and forces you to "commit" in a way that TU systems don't.

(tuluse, I would expect you of all people to acknowledge that more simulation isn't always better!)

 

[Zeriel]

Move-and-attack's mechanical advantages can be arrived at in a TU system by changing the costs of actions. TU's flexibility can never be simulated by move-and-attack.

Literally the only argument in favor of Move-and-attack is "it's really simple to explain". That's why Solomon went with it. There's a really long interview with him on the design of the game where he talks about their design being a little cowardly after the disastrous reception their internal Vertical Slice got. He doesn't make it sound like the implementation in XCOM is his idea of the perfect solution... just the safest route they could do quickly.

(If people really want that 1hr + long podcast interview I could go track it down.)

 

[Infinitron]

Maximizing "flexibility" isn't always a design goal.

("Why can't I move diagonally in Might & Magic X?" cried the kid who just didn't get it.)

 

[Zero Credibility]

JA2 AI is good for what it is. Is it very good - hell no. But it can surprise you by flanking, suppressing or sniping you with the help of a spotter. What's more important is that it can and does make full use of action points and interrupts, so the argument that AI can't deal with TUs or real interrupts is not true. And neither is the idea that TUs were removed from XCOM to improve the AI. That's clearly not so, as developers themselves freely admit. It was removed to make the game simpler and more accessible for their target audience (people that were somehow confused by and hated the options that were there in the original). And yes, the game suffered as a result and yes, the resulting combat system is but a pale streamlined shadow compared to JA2 combat system.

 

[Space Satan]

• The African Union faction in Beyond Earth behaves a lot like Civ V‘s Shoshone, expanding and grabbing territory early and then fiercely defending it.
• Siege Worms are powerful alien units that you won’t be able to dispatch during the early stages of the game, and their travels through the Earth can lead to the destruction of tile improvements.
• The full-body animated leaders will change visually depending on what Affinity they are pursuing, with Purity leaders beginning to wear clothing with classical Roman influences.
• Affinities aren’t selected in the same way as social policies or religions in previous Civilization titles. Instead Affinities develop naturally as the result of many choices made over the course of a game.
• The Virtues system allows players to pursue victory in different ways, even when they have the same Affinity. Combining Supremacy with the Might and Knowledge Virtues can make you a technological military powerhouse, while Supremacy plus Industry and Prosperity will crank up the production of your cities.
• Players who follow the Harmony Affinity will have a chance to use a “Xeno Titan” unit…which was described by Firaxis as “basically a Kaiju.”

 

[tuluse]

I agree with Johannes(!)

Blackguards just wouldn't have been the same if I could slash at somebody and then retreat. THe move-and-attack system changes the dynamic of gameplay and forces you to "commit" in a way that TU systems don't.

(tuluse, I would expect you of all people to acknowledge that more simulation isn't always better!)

I'm not arguing simulationism for the sake of simulationism. I'm arguing increasing options available to the player because that almost always make games more fun.

I don't really care that the AI can't handle it either. 1) it's possible to improve AI, 2) good AI isn't necessary for enjoyment see : Deus Ex.

 

[Galdred]

I'm not arguing simulationism for the sake of simulationism. I'm arguing increasing options available to the player because that almost always make games more fun.

I don't really care that the AI can't handle it either. 1) it's possible to improve AI, 2) good AI isn't necessary for enjoyment see : Deus Ex.

Actually, 1) is not really true : You can improve AI, but you could improve it too in a simpler system in which it would have performed better. The AI of the most complex game will always be weaker than that of the simpler one. Go, which has no hidden information, and a relatively small game space compared to any skirmish game, is already hard for the AI (it should beat all humans soon, but we are not there yet).
So a system with too many viable options (if there are a few dominant ones, the AI will always select them, making the real complexity of the system lower) will always result in a weaker AI for the same amount of effort than a relatively less complex system.
That's why it is impossible to program an AI that will not suck for a game like civilization 5 (heh, we are back to the topic!) :
It is possible to have the AI handle formations correctly (which for some weird reason has not been done), and the tech tree and build order should not be too hard for the AI to max, but choosing on what to spend most efforts, when to build military unit, where to expand, guessing the positions of opposing units and managing diplomacy in a non retarded way are very hard problems.
A simpler game, like Armageddon Empires, manages to give a proper challenge without having the AI cheat at all.

2) I agree with this. You can make the game around a mediocre AI if it is asymmetrical enough. It actually worked well in old X-Com, and it's the way they fixed Warlock in Armageddon mode.

 

[Athelas]

The problem with move/attack should be obvious - it doesn't ask you to make any interesting choices, since you can always move AND attack. And it lacks the granularity of action points/time unit.

It's not that different from many RPG or Tactical RPG systems where you either have 1 move and 1 action (Final Fantasy Tactics, Fire Emblem, Blackguards, Drums of War...), or something close (most DnD game). I have never heard any of these games be called a joke because of lack of TUs, so I really think it is not a major problem.

I dunno about Blackguards or Drums of War but the design philosophy that Japanese developers have for turn-based combat is fundamentally flawed IMO, including FF Tactics. Although I enjoy Fire Emblem's system, but that's in spite of the lack of time units.

 

[MadMaxHellfire]

• The full-body animated leaders will change visually depending on what Affinity they are pursuing, with Purity leaders beginning to wear clothing with classical Roman influences.

way to add useless, pointless, meaningless features just to complicate modders' lives.

 

[tuluse]

The problem with move/attack should be obvious - it doesn't ask you to make any interesting choices, since you can always move AND attack. And it lacks the granularity of action points/time unit.

Sometimes you skip moving and just attack

 

[Spectacle]

Fuck, it's like people don't even know that tabletop wargames exist.

 

[Zeriel]

Okay, so I promised I'd dig it up and here it is.

https://www.idlethumbs.net/tonecontrol/episodes/jake-solomon

Probably the best interview I've seen with him. He talks about (my phrasing) why Kickstarters are a really awkward way to make games, including his belief that good games aren't made chiefly by talent, but by having the time to redo shitty stuff over and over until it's less shitty. There's an interesting part about XCOM and the infamous Vertical Slice. It's a little less depressing than the other articles we've seen on it. He makes it sound like the Vertical Slice was bad not because X-COM is bad (clearly we know it isn't), but because he added a bunch of new mechanics and details on top of a feature-complete version of the old X-COM model. Also talks about design cowardice (his words, seriously) and how the version of XCOM we got was them playing it safe. He talks a lot about being afraid of losing his job and demolishing Firaxis if XCOM tanked, along with his relationship with Sid, who he clearly looks up to, so... there you go.

Speaking of XCOM, has anyone had the chance to play the Long War mod? I had avoided all mods because they make very small changes, but apparently this beast adds aliens acting independently on the geoscape, ignoring alien attacks being a valid choice, genuine choice in what to do, longer game arc, more techs...

 

[exe]

• The African Union faction in Beyond Earth behaves a lot like Civ V‘s Shoshone, expanding and grabbing territory early and then fiercely defending it.
• Siege Worms are powerful alien units that you won’t be able to dispatch during the early stages of the game, and their travels through the Earth can lead to the destruction of tile improvements.
• The full-body animated leaders will change visually depending on what Affinity they are pursuing, with Purity leaders beginning to wear clothing with classical Roman influences.
• Affinities aren’t selected in the same way as social policies or religions in previous Civilization titles. Instead Affinities develop naturally as the result of many choices made over the course of a game.
• The Virtues system allows players to pursue victory in different ways, even when they have the same Affinity. Combining Supremacy with the Might and Knowledge Virtues can make you a technological military powerhouse, while Supremacy plus Industry and Prosperity will crank up the production of your cities.
• Players who follow the Harmony Affinity will have a chance to use a “Xeno Titan” unit…which was described by Firaxis as “basically a Kaiju.”

wow, this gets worse everytime they open their mouth :D

 

[KoolNoodles]

Does it?
1) Okay, faction personality breakdown, not good or bad. AC had the same divisions.
2) Siege Worms sound awesome, even if the name is stupid. Giant space worms that destroy things, cmon.
3) Leader animations.....yawn, who cares moving on.
4) Affinities not being selected and developing because of some C&C? That sounds awesome, will need more details.
5) Virtues sounds like civics/social policies, so who cares.
6) Godzilla? Fucking awesome.

 

[Johannes]

Looked up what Kaiju means... So basically it's a Godzilla or King Kong like. R00fles

 

[Renegen]

Affinities develop based on every technology you research.

 

[Space Satan]

1. What are the defining aspects of this Affinity?

Supremacy represents the most dramatic change for humanity. This Affinity sees technology as the thing that saved humanity after The Great Mistake. Technology is what took man from Earth to the new planet, so they decide to double down in cybernetics. As the supremacy player sheds his or her humanity, they adopt a more austere robotic appearance. By the end of the game, vehicles and military units are sleek, efficient, and often unrecognizable from their human origin.

2. What geological, technological, or other benefits does this Affinity have over others?

Supremacy has an interesting tactical design. Unique Supremacy units, for the most part, work better in tightly formed groups than they do alone. This is because of the various adjacency buffs the units get from being near each other. This makes positioning your units more important, so you can maximize their battle potential. On the other hand, you can give up these perks for a “lone wolf” upgrade that buffs your unit when they are not next to anyone. You can live out your sci-fi alien-squashing fantasies by taking a lone wolf marine into the middle of an alien nest and open fire.

3. When designing the look for this Affinity, what served as inspiration?

Mike Bates - With Supremacy’s emphasis on advanced technology, we wanted to duplicate the sleek design you would expect to see on a cool piece of hardware. All the tech in Supremacy has been optimized and slimmed down. There’s no bulk or extraneous features. Think about cell phones 20 years ago, and then look at them now. You can compare the approach to Purity’s bulky look. Purity has less sophisticated technology and must use brute force to make up for it. Supremacy has the more elegant streamlined solution and can perform advanced battle tactics.

4. What would a person aligned with this Affinity say to someone aligned with the others?

“Resistance is futile.”
Supermacy screenshots:

Spoiler

 

[Space Satan]

Affinities develop based on every technology you research.

Nope. They stated that it will also be based on your choices. As an example - quest\mission to choose between two laboratories- bio, tech and some other choice.

 

[Spectacle]

The plot of this thing seems like it was taken from a Saturday morning cartoon, but the gameplay sounds like a very interesting twist on Civ. I like that there's apparently a lot of things you can customize, and the "technology web" will be a nice change from common tech trees.

 

[Space Satan]

So far one unit pet tile could ruin entire game unless they will not find a way to make it work.

 

[Zeriel]

So far one unit pet tile could ruin entire game unless they will not find a way to make it work.

It's obvious their attempt to make it more interesting is to replace multiple units per tile with satellites, but I already know that won't satisfy me. Whether or not you like this game is going to revolve around whether or not you can stomach the way Civ V is now.

 

[Kaiserian]

My first post in RPG codex!
I'm really excited for this game. Civilization V with aliens. I hope there is much varieties in space civilizations (more than 8 civs) and terrains. I'm also interested to see what kind of soundtracks Firaxis will use in the game.