Skyrim is worse than Oblivion in every way

[DraQ]

Ring of permanent invisibility...

Requires metagaming or being level 20 or something, plus gold for enchantment to be made.

 

[DalekFlay]

Then again, first MQ mission was delving into dungeon full of smugglers. Second - a dungeon full of undead.

Doesn't matter since anyone turned off by challenge couldn't find Caius Cosades anyway.

 

[DraQ]

Then again, first MQ mission was delving into dungeon full of smugglers. Second - a dungeon full of undead.

Doesn't matter since anyone turned off by challenge couldn't find Caius Cosades anyway.

 

[Zewp]

Just GTFO and walk the other way if you see multiple wolves at lvl1. Same with bandits unless you're confident that you can take them out and have superior positioning (kill anyone who looks like archer and then whoever approaches). And block/dodge/interrupt instead of tanking.

Besides it isn't that different from low-level Morrowind, where at low level entering cave could mean a burly Nord bumrushing you and killing you with two consecutive blows of a massive steel hmmr (first blow knocking you flat and helpless).

Cliffracers murdered you, most bandits murdered you, kagouti murdered you, skeletons murdered you (especially archers), bonewalkers drained your strength and then murdered you, while ghosts murdered you slowly while completely ignoring your weapons.

Except in Morrowind the focus wasn't on combat. You didn't have to fight at all most of the time. In Skyrim the entire focus is on combat.

Then again, first MQ mission was delving into dungeon full of smugglers. Second - a dungeon full of undead.

And incidentally, in the very first MQ mission your objective is literally in a room just off the entrance of the dungeon. You have to fight 4 or 5 bandits at most. In Skyrim all your objectives lie at the very end of the dungeon.

 

[Utgard-Loki]

caius also gave you the advice to join a guild or two to gain experience first. pretty much all starting guildquests involve fedex quests without combat, and those that do require it send you after a giant rat or something other well inside even the most non combat focused characters scope. the first companions quests involves you raiding a nordic tomb. the first collage quest involves you raiding a nordic tomb. the first thieves guild quest, i don't even fucking remember, but there is also far too much raiding caves and tombs involved in that questline.

 

[DalekFlay]

Sneaking is such a god mode in Skyrim you could probably ghost the whole fucking game after level 10 or so.

 

[DalekFlay]

the first thieves guild quest, i don't even fucking remember

A very neat burglary mission to that island honey farm. Best quest in the whole thieves guild questline and it's the first one.

 

[Zewp]

The thieves guild questline was actually the only quest line that I thought was okay in the game. There was still a lot of derp, but it was much better than the rest. At least you don't become grandmaster after 5 quests.

 

[DraQ]

Except in Morrowind the focus wasn't on combat. You didn't have to fight at all most of the time. In Skyrim the entire focus is on combat.

Focus wasn't on combat, but you did have a lot of potential combat thrown in your way, and the tools you were given to avoid it weren't that different from what Skyrim gives you.

And incidentally, in the very first MQ mission your objective is literally in a room just off the entrance of the dungeon.

In a very tiny room forcing you into melee with lvl5 dude with an axe wearing iron cuirass.

caius also gave you the advice to join a guild or two to gain experience first. pretty much all starting guildquests involve fedex quests without combat, and those that do require it send you after a giant rat or something other well inside even the most non combat focused characters scope.

Well, those rats in Thelas' attic murder a lot of lvl 1 Nerevarines.
They should not be taken lightly.

the first companions quests involves you raiding a nordic tomb.

With a powerful meatshield accompanying you.

the first collage quest involves you raiding a nordic tomb.

With a powerful wizard accompanying you (seriously, Tolfdir + Requiem = OMG).

the first thieves guild quest, i don't even fucking remember, but there is also far too much raiding caves and tombs involved in that questline.

Sounds a lot like Daggerfall, actually.


Plus, Skyrim may be more combat focused (shit, need to play a near pacifist...), but it's also less level dependant. For example, you don't get HP boost unless you specifically choose it over extra stamina or magicka. With Requiem effectively nullifying HP bloat it becomes possible to tackle a lot of challenges at low level if you're smart. Pretty much the main limiting factor is perks.

Aaand, if it comes to worst (like when I entered that last cavern with my lightly armoured character and saw an *army* of draugr, nearly half of them with bows), you can always just do

and turn back.

Turning your tail used to be an important player ability in RPGs.

 

[Gord]

Sneaking is such a god mode in Skyrim you could probably ghost the whole fucking game after level 10 or so.

My first character was a thief focusing on bows.
As I was fighting mostly ranged, my sneaking skills actually never went really high. Even when I finished the game at level ~35, sneaking was still well below 100. Probably in the 80s and many enemies could spot me after I shot them a few times with the bow. Which was admittedly enough for most enemies, but e.g. higher level draugr usually only allowed one or two sneak attacks before they came running to me.
With that char, sneaking felt mostly "right" to me.
If you, however, sneak into mele range, your skill raises much faster AND you get the stupidly high sneak damage multiplier for daggers.

 

[Zewp]

I honestly can't remember ever struggling with the first MQ in Morrowind. Not even when playing non-combat characters.

As for the sneaking in TES titles. It's utter shit. Thief did it a lot better, as did Dark Messiah. And Deus Ex. In fact, I'd wager a bet and say most games do stealth better than TES games. TES has one of the worst stealth systems around.

 

[DraQ]

My first character was a thief focusing on bows.
As I was fighting mostly ranged, my sneaking skills actually never went really high. Even when I finished the game at level ~35, sneaking was still well below 100. Probably in the 80s and many enemies could spot me after I shot them a few times with the bow. Which was admittedly enough for most enemies, but e.g. higher level draugr usually only allowed one or two sneak attacks before they came running to me.
With that char, sneaking felt mostly "right" to me.
If you, however, sneak into mele range, your skill raises much faster AND you get the stupidly high sneak damage multiplier for daggers.

Actually, you should get a good chance of instakilling someone if you manage to attack them unnoticed in melee, but it should be pretty much use it and lose it bonus - stabbing someone should make you noticed and pursued making it difficult to throw enemies off your track, let alone sneak up to someone again.

It should be "do I stab this guy and have to flee or fight everyone else, or do I try to slip by unnoticed?".

Unless you really manage to sneak up to someone in secluded spot.

I honestly can't remember ever struggling with the first MQ in Morrowind. Not even when playing non-combat characters.

As for the sneaking in TES titles. It's utter shit. Thief did it a lot better, as did Dark Messiah. And Deus Ex. In fact, I'd wager a bet and say most games do stealth better than TES games. TES has one of the worst stealth systems around.

TES doesn't have any single stealth system.

In Morrowind it was pretty much rudimentary skill VS distance VS random variable check, unless you had occlusion.
In Skyrim it's much more sophisticated, accounting for lighting, noises and all kinds of stuff. Pretty much the par for stealth system although with variables set up rather badly (like enemies alert timing out in hilariously short time). Modded, it can be pretty interesting.
In oblivious it's probably somewhat similar to Skyrim's vanilla, except enemies were oblivious to noises and stuff happening around them.

And DX didn't have good stealth. It was horrible, with enemies having poor FoV and very long confirmation times, although it accounted for both lighting and noise.

Good stealth system was present in STALKER, although it temporarily broke if you reloaded save made while sneaking around enemies.

 

[DalekFlay]

My first character was a thief focusing on bows.
As I was fighting mostly ranged, my sneaking skills actually never went really high. Even when I finished the game at level ~35, sneaking was still well below 100. Probably in the 80s and many enemies could spot me after I shot them a few times with the bow. Which was admittedly enough for most enemies, but e.g. higher level draugr usually only allowed one or two sneak attacks before they came running to me.
With that char, sneaking felt mostly "right" to me.
If you, however, sneak into mele range, your skill raises much faster AND you get the stupidly high sneak damage multiplier for daggers.

Hmmm. I had a sneaky archer and sneak leveled insanely fast. I did use daggers too, but archery sneak crits tended to level me insanely fast. I guess it depends on a lot of factors though, I know I walked around crouched like 90% of the time in dungeons. You also get a LOT of sneak exp for running away and hiding again when the enemy loses you.

In any event sneak 80+ with the perks and archery 80+ with the perks = god. The game literally loses all appeal because there is no challenge what-so-ever. My other high level character, a spellsword, has a much rougher time of it.

Actually, you should get a good chance of instakilling someone if you manage to attack them unnoticed in melee, but it should be pretty much use it and lose it bonus - stabbing someone should make you noticed and pursued making it difficult to throw enemies off your track, let alone sneak up to someone again.

That's why you use daggers, they are completely silent. You can kill four people in the same room without any of them perking up at all.

In Morrowind it was pretty much rudimentary skill VS distance VS random variable check, unless you had occlusion.
In Skyrim it's much more sophisticated, accounting for lighting, noises and all kinds of stuff. Pretty much the par for stealth system although with variables set up rather badly (like enemies alert timing out in hilariously short time).

Yes, even at sneak level 100 with all the sneak perks it's damn near impossible to sneak up on enemies in broad daylight outside.

 

[racofer]

A very neat burglary mission to that island honey farm. Best quest The single good quest in the whole thieves guild questline and it's the first one.

 

[Carrion]

I thought the only good quest of the Thieves Guild was the one in the Dwemer museum. The honey farm quest was decent but didn't really seem like a job for a thief. Aside from those two quests the guild was dumber than Oblivion.

 

[Broseph]

Yeah, the first quest was decent because it allowed for multiple approaches like entering through the sewer at the north side of the island. One of the few quests in the entire game that I enjoyed.

 

[Luzur]

Then again, first MQ mission was delving into dungeon full of smugglers. Second - a dungeon full of undead.

Doesn't matter since anyone turned off by challenge couldn't find Caius Cosades anyway.

i want to murder everyone that post the "HAPL I CNAT FIN CAJUS COSADA SHIT GAEM OLOLOL PS1 GRAFIX" comment on internet.

Sneaking is such a god mode in Skyrim you could probably ghost the whole fucking game after level 10 or so.

my char is maxed out in sneak (and bows), and i can stand still in the middle of the hallway and have enemies bump into me without them noticing, until i start to fire.

still gives me 2 or 3 chances at Draugr Deathlords before they find me.

 

[DalekFlay]

my char is maxed out in sneak (and bows), and i can stand still in the middle of the hallway and have enemies bump into me without them noticing, until i start to fire.

In the expansion the little goblin dudes pop out of the ground in caves to surprise you. With 100 sneak and all the perks they were popping out of the ground right under me, my character shoved aside in the process, and then they just stood there with me inches away, not seeing me.

Part of me likes how stat-based sneaking seems to be but in a game where everything is skill-based it seems really off.

 

[Kitako]

The goldenglow mission was a disgrace. Every single fucking guard was stationary with the back on the player path. Only one patrolled... a 10 meters corridor. And when you get to the owner... awesome scripted godvision that see even through invisibility.

 

[Luzur]

my char is maxed out in sneak (and bows), and i can stand still in the middle of the hallway and have enemies bump into me without them noticing, until i start to fire.

In the expansion the little goblin dudes pop out of the ground in caves to surprise you. With 100 sneak and all the perks they were popping out of the ground right under me, my character shoved aside in the process, and then they just stood there with me inches away, not seeing me.

Part of me likes how stat-based sneaking seems to be but in a game where everything is skill-based it seems really off.

ah, those blind things? they actually jumps down from those big hives on the wall.

 

[Luzur]

The goldenglow mission was a disgrace. Every single fucking guard was stationary with the back on the player path. Only one patrolled... a 10 meters corridor. And when you get to the owner... awesome scripted godvision that see even through invisibility.

actually, he didnt see me when i snuck in, although i saw him hiding behind the cupboard thanks to 100 sneak.

 

[DalekFlay]

ah, those blind things? they actually jumps down from those big hives on the wall.

No no no, on Solstheim, the little blue goblins. Reklings? They were in Bloodmoon too. They jump right out of the ground or out of barrels.

 

[Luzur]

ah, those blind things? they actually jumps down from those big hives on the wall.

No no no, on Solstheim, the little blue goblins. Reklings? They were in Bloodmoon too. They jump right out of the ground or out of barrels.

i havent reached Solstheim yet, im dancing around with the Thieves Guild atm.

 

[DalekFlay]

ah, those blind things? they actually jumps down from those big hives on the wall.

No no no, on Solstheim, the little blue goblins. Reklings? They were in Bloodmoon too. They jump right out of the ground or out of barrels.

i havent reached Solstheim yet, im dancing around with the Thieves Guild atm.

It's a good chunk of content, worthy of the expansion term. You should enjoy it if you enjoy the main game.

 

[JarlFrank]

*DraQs rating of different stealth systems*

Why didn't you list Thief in there? Haven't you played it yet? If not, why not?