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Skyrim is worse than Oblivion in every way

mastroego

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Honestly I don't think Skyrim deserves ultra-harsh criticism.

It is what it is, but for an AAA title, it's pretty non-decline.
After all, consider this:
  • it utterly humiliated Dragon Age 2 (more than that did on its own), which was satisfying.
  • it has atmosphere, cool locations and decent music
  • it is really immense, content-wise
  • sure it gets repetitive, but then again people put hundreds of hours into it
  • DLCs are not a joke
  • mods can enhance it immensely (I mean try Frostfall, Dragon Combat Overhaul, or the excellent UI mods...). And no, moddability is NOT a given, especially for AAA titles
  • conversely, some of the things that made the crowds scream "THE HORROR! IT'S DUMBED DOWN!!!!", were never re-implemented by modders (case in point: weapons and armor degradation): it may be argued that they removed some of the right things, after all.
I myself I'm having fun with it, when all is said and done. Sure, now and then I need a long break.
 

DeepOcean

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conversely, some of the things that made the crowds scream "THE HORROR! IT'S DUMBED DOWN!!!!", were never re-implemented by modders (case in point: weapons and armor degradation): it may be argued that they removed some of the right things, after all.

Maybe there is a reason for why there isn't weapon degradation mods. Like, you know ... not possible like adding atributes and the spell maker? Are you saying Bethesda did right by removing those mechanics because modders didn't added them? Do not understand.
 

commie

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I'm glad there is no weapon degradation. It works in some instances, but in Bethesda creations many of these things like ammo weight and need to eat don't really add much and are actually annoying given the nature of the games. Case in point is Fallout 3. At first I appreciated the mods that gave ammo weight and need to eat and sleep and coupled with weapon degradation it seemed like something to make the experience more challenging. After a while though I found that the way you had to go back and forth to hoard ammo and constantly take breaks to eat and sleep and repair guns just made the game tedious as trash mobs were always just around the corner and one couldn't be arsed to play the scavenging survivor when all other elements in the game were so mediocre that just grinding past them made the most sense. The fact that Bethesda games are loot games only serves to point out the pointlessness of such things. Gothic did it right by not adding pointless micromanagement and instead letting you carry a million things, abstracting the whole concept and it certainly made the game much better.

Bethesda and modders would do better to limit the quality and quantity of loot available as it would really increase the value of finding a good sword and make the whole exploration much more meaningful rather than finding 40 swords in each cavern and deciding which to carry back to sell for 1GP or compare the relative degradation of each(as in earlier games) which added fuck all.
 

Jick Magger

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That and it's hard to enjoy Skyrim even with mods because the land of Skyrim itself is such a fucking boring place aesthetically. Not as bad as Oblivion for sure, but jesus did it get fucking tiring trudging through generic woodlands to get to generic mountains to find a generic cave guarded by generic level scaled bandits in order to traverse one of Skyrim's dozens of linear copy-pasted dungeons filled with generic zombies and puzzles that literally have the solutions within arms reach to get another shitty piece of a Dragon Shout that I'll never use.

The comment on people putting hundreds of hours into stuff also doesn't really tell me much beyond the obvious fact that there are people who are invested in something on an emotional level. I've seen plenty of people who're equally as emotionally invested in Dragon Age II, doesn't mean I'll list "There are people who've played it several times to get every romance option available" as a positive.
 

DraQ

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Honestly I don't think Skyrim deserves ultra-harsh criticism.

It is what it is, but for an AAA title, it's pretty non-decline.
I can generally agree with that. However:

After all, consider this:
  • it utterly humiliated Dragon Age 2 (more than that did on its own), which was satisfying.
  • it has atmosphere, cool locations and decent music
  • it is really immense, content-wise
  • sure it gets repetitive, but then again people put hundreds of hours into it
  • DLCs are not a joke
  • mods can enhance it immensely (I mean try Frostfall, Dragon Combat Overhaul, or the excellent UI mods...). And no, moddability is NOT a given, especially for AAA titles
  • conversely, some of the things that made the crowds scream "THE HORROR! IT'S DUMBED DOWN!!!!", were never re-implemented by modders (case in point: weapons and armor degradation): it may be argued that they removed some of the right things, after all.
I myself I'm having fun with it, when all is said and done. Sure, now and then I need a long break.
1) Is good but not indicative of quality.
3) ok, no objection maybe apart from questline content. Also lacks handplaced shit.
4) people putting hunderds of hours into something is not an argument on the Codex.
6) true, though not really indicative of quality. Then again something must have redeeming quality to be fixable by mods (other than TCs).
7) Nope. Dumbing down is dumbing down and dumbing down in skyrim is egregious and shit. The game would have meshed awesomely with less level scaling, no quest compass, spellmaker, more faction reactivity and crealtionships, sprawling dungeons, attributes and so on.
As for repairs and durability, I don't think they need to be in every game, but a game with stuff like glass weaponry definitely needs that.
 

sea

inXile Entertainment
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I'm glad there is no weapon degradation. It works in some instances, but in Bethesda creations many of these things like ammo weight and need to eat don't really add much and are actually annoying given the nature of the games. Case in point is Fallout 3. At first I appreciated the mods that gave ammo weight and need to eat and sleep and coupled with weapon degradation it seemed like something to make the experience more challenging. After a while though I found that the way you had to go back and forth to hoard ammo and constantly take breaks to eat and sleep and repair guns just made the game tedious as trash mobs were always just around the corner and one couldn't be arsed to play the scavenging survivor when all other elements in the game were so mediocre that just grinding past them made the most sense. The fact that Bethesda games are loot games only serves to point out the pointlessness of such things. Gothic did it right by not adding pointless micromanagement and instead letting you carry a million things, abstracting the whole concept and it certainly made the game much better.

Bethesda and modders would do better to limit the quality and quantity of loot available as it would really increase the value of finding a good sword and make the whole exploration much more meaningful rather than finding 40 swords in each cavern and deciding which to carry back to sell for 1GP or compare the relative degradation of each(as in earlier games) which added fuck all.
Bingo. It's finite resources in a game with a relatively fixed duration that make those ideas compelling. Do you spend your hard-earned money repairing your gun or buying a new one? Do you get health or ammo? If you go out for a long trek into the wilderness, will you have enough to make it back alive? Meanwhile in a Bethesda game you are rolling in supplies all the time, money is infinite, you can just steal high-value stuff from NPCs (which often respawns after a few days), kill some bandits to get some cash or items to repair with, etc. Those games are built around exploration and character progression, not resource management, because for the most part the resources you are concerned with are transitory. The "real" things in the game you need to acquire are your XP/skills and map markers.
 

DraQ

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Bingo. It's finite resources in a game with a relatively fixed duration that make those ideas compelling. Do you spend your hard-earned money repairing your gun or buying a new one? Do you get health or ammo? If you go out for a long trek into the wilderness, will you have enough to make it back alive? Meanwhile in a Bethesda game you are rolling in supplies all the time, money is infinite, you can just steal high-value stuff from NPCs (which often respawns after a few days), kill some bandits to get some cash or items to repair with, etc. Those games are built around exploration and character progression, not resource management, because for the most part the resources you are concerned with are transitory. The "real" things in the game you need to acquire are your XP/skills and map markers.
But that's just bullshit.

Resource management can occur and have different dynamics at various timescales. Even if in long term it's meaningless, it may still matter when trying to make best of the finite carryable supplies while in hostile territory.
Finally not every mechanics is necessarily functional, sometimes main reason for including it is flavour (remember DX:IW and its nonsensical universal ammo system?).
If your game features different quality items possibly made of exotic materials, some of which may, for example, have excellent properties, but be relatively fragile (glass?), it makes sense to reflect this mechanically for flavour resons alone, regardless of usefulness of such mechanics, though deciding whether to pack a light, sharp, but fragile glass sword, you may need to replace at great loss (pack spares, negating weight advantage?, light disposable, but shitty chitin weapon, steel, which is durable, but heavy and cannot harm supernatural creatures, or maybe silver, which is similar to steel (the weapon is still mostly steel, actually) and harms incorporeal creatures, but dulls quickly makes for interesting gameplay.

As for ammo, with weightless ammo there is no practical reason to even track it (at least common types), because you are going to accummulate it ad infinitum.
 

IDtenT

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Okay, I gave this another couple of hours.

The game has practically zero replay value. I can't for the life of me get myself to redo all them early quests. Mage combat on the most difficult level is actually interesting, but raising the dead is far too easy a spell. The new class system also makes progress a bit cleaner. Why does everyone assume I want to do their quests? I don't even get an option to say no most of the time. The gossip system is fucking annoying. Getting called a great warrior to join the Companions while I'm a puny mage is ridiculous. The long quests are all far too combat heavy, as is most of the game. Even with SkyUI (the only mod installed) the interface is still a fucking chore with the mouse. The theme park is arguably worse than Oblivion and there are far too many people with quests.
 

Zewp

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Codex 2013
The problem with Skyrim quests is not only that they're all too combat heavy, but that they're also essentially reskinned WoW quests. As far as Kill X and Fetch Y quests go, Skyrim's quests take the terms 'bland' and 'generic' to a whole new level.
 

hakuroshi

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In my experience, playing Skyrim first time with alternative start mod which suppresses MQ completely until you follow a certain rumor, turned out to be a surprisingly enjoyable adventurer simulator. Felt like a nice mix of Morrowind-like exploration and Daggerfal random quest hunting. Impression lasted for 20 hours maybe and eventually got sour by numerous defects, mostly minor by themselves, but together... meh. Replaying is very questionable, after I got familiar with land, main attraction for playing has gone.
 

DraQ

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Then again, who in their right mind plays TES for quests?

turned out to be a surprisingly enjoyable adventurer simulator. Felt like a nice mix of Morrowind-like exploration and Daggerfal random quest hunting.
Agreed.

Impression lasted for 20 hours maybe and eventually got sour by numerous defects, mostly minor by themselves, but together... meh. Replaying is very questionable, after I got familiar with land, main attraction for playing has gone.
(duel), requiem, morrowloot mod stack?
 

hakuroshi

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(duel), requiem, morrowloot mod stack?

I might try them someday, and really should have done that at the beginning. But I've already seen most of Skyrim, and after a series of dungencrawls the excitement of athmosphere is somewhat diminished, while linearity of each crawl and other faults (mostly npc retardation, named and nameless) becomes too painful to endure. Still it might be interesting to try surviving low levels with these mods :)
 

DeepOcean

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I might try them someday, and really should have done that at the beginning. But I've already seen most of Skyrim, and after a series of dungencrawls the excitement of athmosphere is somewhat diminished, while linearity of each crawl and other faults (mostly npc retardation, named and nameless) becomes too painful to endure. Still it might be interesting to try surviving low levels with these mods :)
That was the same mistake I made, next game from Bethesda, I'm only going to start playing 2-3 years after release, buy it with a 75% Steam sale, use every gameplay mod available that don't enter in confict with each other (If Bethesda abbandon mod support in the future, there is no more Bethesda games for me) and I'm going to skip every dialogue line so the NPC retardation can't affect me. I will play as Todd intended: kill monsters and see pretty shit. If the next games are Fallout 3/Oblivion levels of derp, I'm just going to say LOL and stop my weakness for walking simulators.
 

Zeriel

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I might try them someday, and really should have done that at the beginning. But I've already seen most of Skyrim, and after a series of dungencrawls the excitement of athmosphere is somewhat diminished, while linearity of each crawl and other faults (mostly npc retardation, named and nameless) becomes too painful to endure. Still it might be interesting to try surviving low levels with these mods :)
That was the same mistake I made, next game from Bethesda, I'm only going to start playing 2-3 years after release, buy it with a 75% Steam sale, use every gameplay mod available that don't enter in confict with each other (If Bethesda abbandon mod support in the future, there is no more Bethesda games for me) and I'm going to skip every dialogue line so the NPC retardation can't affect me. I will play as Todd intended: kill monsters and see pretty shit. If the next games are Fallout 3/Oblivion levels of derp, I'm just going to say LOL and stop my weakness for walking simulators.

Eh, I kind of feel like the mods (while often excellent) would be kind of weird and patchworky if you hadn't played the game before to understand the distinction between modded and unmodded gameplay. I have yet to play a mod for an Elder Scrolls game that doesn't have its own flaws and idiosyncrasies that would possibly detract from the game if you didn't already understand/were really tired of the base game.
 

Zewp

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Codex 2013
Then again, who in their right mind plays TES for quests?

Erm, most of us? Quests might not be the main focus of playing the game, but they make a pretty big contribution to the longevity of the game. While it was fun to just walk around and explore Morrowind, without quests I likely wouldn't have spent nearly as much time on the game.
 

DraQ

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Then again, who in their right mind plays TES for quests?

Erm, most of us? Quests might not be the main focus of playing the game, but they make a pretty big contribution to the longevity of the game. While it was fun to just walk around and explore Morrowind, without quests I likely wouldn't have spent nearly as much time on the game.
But in Morrowind quests were mostly just chores for some organization or source of a reward of some sort.

Did anyone honestly played Morrowind to, for example, bring four samples of swamp shrooms to a furry?
Sure, quests oftent dictated the direction of exploration, but most of them weren't terribly hot, and even those that were were still means to an end.

:what:
Jesus Fucking Christ, XP based systems have totally warped you people, you can no longer tell the difference between a treat and bell ringing.


What other activities are there in Skyrim other than quests and, AHEM, "exploration"?
Adventuring - you know - running around killing things?

As in Todd's retarded definition of fantasy?
 

DraQ

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14602.jpg

I'm sorry, but in my adventures I don't want to kill many a thing.
:hmmm:
 

Andyman Messiah

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What other activities are there in Skyrim other than quests and, AHEM, "exploration"?

Cooking.
Try again.

Don't say mining or woodcutting. Rest assured, you WILL be asked to try again.

Romances. :troll:
There are romances in Skyrim? Besides mods?

DraQ: "Running around and killing things" is too generic to be an actual activity in of itself.
 

Zewp

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Codex 2013
Adventuring - you know - running around killing things?

As in Todd's retarded definition of fantasy?

So running around and killing random things is supposed to be more satisfying than working yourself up the ranks of a faction? Or finding the evil bitch who paralyzed the Nord and took all his clothes? In Morrowind quests added variety and flavor to the game world. I did them because often the backstory was interesting and I wanted to see how things pan out. That's why Skyrim's bland and generic quests just help make the game even worse.

I dunno, Draq. Normally you've got pretty alright opinions, but implying that quests are somehow unimportant in an (action) RPG is a very silly thing to say.
 

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