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slowpoke checking in: New Vegas

Zboj Lamignat

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Anyone who thinks Fallout 1 or 2 has better combat than New Vegas is just plain wrong (calling it comparable is acceptable).
:lol:

Why would you even compare F1/2 combat to F3/FNV when they are a completely different things. F3/FNV combat should be compared to fps games where it sucks completely and hits the rock bottom. The best you could do is to compare it to hybrid fps games where it being rock bottom is even more evident due to the fact that there aren't many such games. And the retarded legal god mode called VATS is only there to make it console-friendly, arguing that it somehow salvages the game is like arguing that making a hole in your stomach after amputating the anus is a cool feature.
 

ohWOW

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Anyone who considers New Vegas combat good has a brain tumor. Is fucking retarded.

Enjoy your bloat-hp contests, faggots.
 

Gord

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Anyone who thinks Fallout 1 or 2 has better combat than New Vegas is just plain wrong (calling it comparable is acceptable).
:lol:

Why would you even compare F1/2 combat to F3/FNV when they are a completely different things. F3/FNV combat should be compared to fps games where it sucks completely and hits the rock bottom. The best you could do is to compare it to hybrid fps games where it being rock bottom is even more evident due to the fact that there aren't many such games. And the retarded legal god mode called VATS is only there to make it console-friendly, arguing that it somehow salvages the game is like arguing that making a hole in your stomach after amputating the anus is a cool feature.

No, it's no shooter. Compare it to other hybrids (Deus Ex, System Shock, etc.) but not to pure first person shooters, that's just as retarded.
 

Zboj Lamignat

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No, it's no shooter. Compare it to other hybrids (Deus Ex, System Shock, etc.) but not to pure first person shooters, that's just as retarded.
So you actually believe that F3/FNV combat shares as much with any common fps as with F1/2? Yeah, no :lol:
 

Gord

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I believe that while you are right that comparing combat in FNV with FO1/2 might be problematic, comparing it with a pure shooter isn't right, either. It's no real shooter, period.
 

Carrion

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Weapon skills affect your accuracy though. It does ultimately feel like a holdover that should have been dropped since it's a stat that doesn't work in a realtime fpp game.
The effect is way too small. There's also absolutely no reason why perception couldn't work in a real-time game either. It could be implemented quite easily if the combat worked like in Deus Ex [insert trollface here]. You could just make perception affect your maximum accuracy (how small your crosshair can get when standing still) while weapon skills would affect your weapon handling, such as how quickly you can take an accurate shot after drawing your weapon, how well you can aim while moving, how well you can control your recoil, how fast you can reload, how fast you can fix a jammed gun and so on. Perception can work very well in a FPP game, it only becomes problematic when you try to fit it into an existing non-RPG system that is crap.

With the overpowered top tier melee weapons, sure (and even then only in certain situations, those being the "feast or famine" skill). Not so much all the wobbly-guns that also benefit from the damage increase that comes from increased skill.
...which is a shitty mechanic that makes zero sense.

No. You're also contradicting what I quoted before this. "You can be fairly deadly with severely underpowered weapons" how does that even work? I guess one might consider them underpowered if you expect to kill everything in 1-2 hits, like good old eyeshot criticals in Fallout 1/2.
Underpowered guns work both ways. Even with high weapon skills you'll have to pump a ton of lead into an enemy's head to kill anyone, but you can also take a lot of damage from guns without it slowing you down one bit.

What a horribly empty statement. Fallout's combat was marginally-tactical single character turn based hack and slash.
Yeah, and New Vegas' combat is marginally tactical real-time "run backwards and shoot everything in the head" borefest, or alternatively "run forward and press LMB repeatedly to kill everyone" hack and slash. I'm sorry, but this really is a "but stats..." question, and I do give a shit. The important part is that every action you took in Fallout was directly tied to your stats, and different characters played differently in combat. The system was clearly built for an RPG from the start. These are the basics that I'm talking about. In New Vegas, too many of the things you do in combat are independent from your character's stats, and even when stats have an effect it's so small that you usually don't even notice it.

I'd love to make an agile submachine gun character who uses his speed to flank enemies and shoot them in the face at point-blank range, but I can't really do that because the movement speed is the same regardless of your agility. Playing a master rifleman is really no different from playing someone who has never touched a gun in his life, the former just seems to have more effective guns for some unknown reason. The combat is pretty much exactly the same regardless of your stats, there are just a few barely noticeable modifiers added into the mix to make it look like it's RPG combat. Well, it's not. You can add a cardboard spoiler to your ordinary Volvo station wagon, but it doesn't make it a sports car. Similarly you can add VATS and "action points" into your terrible shooter combat, but in its core it's still terrible shooter combat.

I believe that while you are right that comparing combat in FNV with FO1/2 might be problematic, comparing it with a pure shooter isn't right, either. It's no real shooter, period.
I agree that it's not a real shooter, but I'd rather compare it to some mid-90's shooters than Deus Ex. Remove VATS and that's all you have left is really basic gunplay with minimal recoil and enemies that run straight at you. Deus Ex had simple but highly functional stat-based real-time gunplay that was clearly better in pretty much every way.

I guess you could compare the combat to Invisible War, though.
 

Garmik

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So, this thread made me want to play NV again, I played it back when it released, so played with no mods, and I still have to play the DLCs. I'm about to get them all.

But my question is, is there any mod that comes highly recommended? Mostly just looking for something that makes the game harder/more challenging, maybe realistic damage, harsher wasteland with harder survival elements?
So far I'm between Project Nevada an JSawyer's mod.

PN looks like it adds more stuff that could potentially be fun.
But JSawyer's looks more like the challenge I'm looking for... I can't find any complete changelog that lists all or the major changes though. Just saw what I can see on each version post on his blog.

Which one comes most recommended by the codex? Or just any comments on either of these would be appreciated. As well as any other possible recommendations.
 

Somberlain

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PN looks like it adds more stuff that could potentially be fun.
But JSawyer's looks more like the challenge I'm looking for... I can't find any complete changelog that lists all or the major changes though. Just saw what I can see on each version post on his blog.

Why not use both? JSawyer is compatible with with the core- (which is pretty much the only awesome thing about PN anyway) and equipment modules, probably with the cyberware too.

Also, the full changelog for JSawyer is in the readme.
 

Roguey

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F3/FNV combat should be compared to fps games where it sucks completely and hits the rock bottom.
New Vegas has better shooting than a lot of really terrible pure first person shooters. Of course it doesn't hold up against the best.
The best you could do is to compare it to hybrid fps games where it being rock bottom is even more evident due to the fact that there aren't many such games.
Hey, even then it's still better than Deus Ex, Invisible War, Bloodlines, and Alpha Protocol.

The effect is way too small.
It was not. I couldn't use 50-skill tier guns when my skill was 25 because the wobble gave me a headache. The effect is more pronounced the higher the discrepancy is.
There's also absolutely no reason why perception couldn't work in a real-time game either. It could be implemented quite easily if the combat worked like in Deus Ex [insert trollface here]. You could just make perception affect your maximum accuracy (how small your crosshair can get when standing still) while weapon skills would affect your weapon handling, such as how quickly you can take an accurate shot after drawing your weapon, how well you can aim while moving, how well you can control your recoil, how fast you can reload, how fast you can fix a jammed gun and so on. Perception can work very well in a FPP game, it only becomes problematic when you try to fit it into an existing non-RPG system that is crap.
This is all theorycrafting, no way to determine whether or not any of it is actually fun without testing. Perhaps they had and determined it was not.

...which is a shitty mechanic that makes zero sense.
Shitty is vague when you don't explain why. Game mechanics don't have to simulate reality and a lot of RPGs use damage treadmilling with no complaints.

Underpowered guns work both ways. Even with high weapon skills you'll have to pump a ton of lead into an enemy's head to kill anyone, but you can also take a lot of damage from guns without it slowing you down one bit.
Unless I was attacking something with an inefficient weapon or ammo, all enemies died within seconds. Especially with the top-tier guns which are overpowered on purpose as an aid for bad players. JSawyer mod significantly decreases your starting HP.

These are the basics that I'm talking about. In New Vegas, too many of the things you do in combat are independent from your character's stats, and even when stats have an effect it's so small that you usually don't even notice it.
Regarding the first part: I don't see that as a flaw. You're sounding awfully "vocal"
3325uvn.png

For the second part: Quoth Volourn: Bullshitz.

Deus Ex had simple but highly functional stat-based real-time gunplay that was clearly better in pretty much every way.
When you make claims like this I just cannot take you seriously. And Fallout 3/New Vegas enemies actually use more stats than Deus Ex FYI. Open up the Unreal editor and you'll see that they're all just FPS enemies with generic accuracy modifiers.
 

Carrion

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It was not. I couldn't use 50-skill tier guns when my skill was 25 because the wobble gave me a headache.
Well, I did. I didn't pay any atention to strength requirements either since they didn't seem to matter a lot either. And was there even any "wobble" unless you used iron sights?

This is all theorycrafting, no way to determine whether or not any of it is actually fun without testing. Perhaps they had and determined it was not.
Fun is secondary. I want my character's stats to matter in a game that lets you put points into them. Pure FPS combat would probably be more fun than FPRPG combat, but it would undermine the whole RPG aspect of the game.

Shitty is vague when you don't explain why. Game mechanics don't have to simulate reality and a lot of RPGs use damage treadmilling with no complaints.
Reality matters if a game uses real-life weaponry. "Damage treadmilling" is alright with melee weapons as it actually makes sense there, although it shouldn't be the only thing a weapon skill does. With guns it's just a lazy way out as there are tons of other things a weapon skill could affect and which would be more interesting from a gameplay point of view (more of this later when we get to Deus Ex). It usually also leads to undesired side effects like HP bloat, and it really hurts the feel of the combat if your guns can barely scratch people. New Vegas' combat feels like shit mostly because of this. To be honest, Deus Ex had some damage scaling too, and it sucked there as well, but at least it was much more subtle, and it also had stuff like recoil, which is almost nonexistent in New Vegas (would be too annoying on consoles, I imagine).

Unless I was attacking something with an inefficient weapon or ammo, all enemies died within seconds. Especially with the top-tier guns which are overpowered on purpose as an aid for bad players. JSawyer mod significantly decreases your starting HP.
Might have something to do with difficulty since I've only played the game on Very Hard. Yeah, yeah, you can probably kill most if not all enemies within seconds if you shoot them in the head constantly, but most of them can still take a full clip from an assault rifle and just shrug it off.

JSawyer's mod is not New Vegas.

Regarding the first part: I don't see that as a flaw. You're sounding awfully "vocal"

For the second part: Quoth Volourn: Bullshitz.
I wish I knew what your were trying to say here. I don't speak Volournish.

When you make claims like this I just cannot take you seriously. And Fallout 3/New Vegas enemies actually use more stats than Deus Ex FYI. Open up the Unreal editor and you'll see that they're all just FPS enemies with generic accuracy modifiers.
Not talking about enemies here but what happens when the PC fires a gun in the game. Deus Ex simulates weapon handling in a pretty abstract but functional way. An untrained person with some basic knowledge of guns (like a UNATCO agent) can take a pretty accurate shot with a pistol or a rifle at a short or medium range if he is allowed to take his time with it. However, if you give him a limited amount of time to draw his weapon and take the shot, or give him a moving target, or tell him to take multiple shots at the same target in a short period of time, he'll most likely have some trouble. With increased training he'll learn to control the recoil, position himself faster for an accurate shot, aim at moving targets with greater accuracy, handle the weapon better while moving and so on. Deus Ex does this rather primitively through the crosshair, but as an abstraction it works reasonably well, and it also creates a clear gameplay difference between someone who's a weapon expert and someone who's not. The former can take out his targets swiftly even while moving whereas the latter can mostly just take single shots when standing still without fucking up his aim, which in turn means that the former can utilize a much wider variety of tactics due to his expertise in a specific skill. In short, the skills have an instantly notable impact on gameplay and they make sense. I wish weapon skills also had a greater effect on some other aspects of weapon handling, like reload speed, but you can't have everything.

On the other hand New Vegas' combat is more or less the same regardless of your skills. Gameplay differences between an experienced gunslinger and some never-held-a-gun-in-his-hands weakling aren't that noticeable, and increasing your weapon skills doesn't really let you do anything you couldn't already do anyway. You can unload a full clip into someone's face while strafing even if you haven't invested a single point into weapon skills. You get some gun sway here and some different numbers in VATS there, but at its core the combat stays the same.

Anyway, I'm kind of tired of explaining this shit to you, so let's hear why you think New Vegas' combat is good and why Deus Ex has shitty combat.
 

Roguey

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Well, I did. I didn't pay any atention to strength requirements either since they didn't seem to matter a lot either. And was there even any "wobble" unless you used iron sights?
If you're not aiming down the sights, your guns are even more inaccurate.
State effects combine multiplicatively.

Crouching reduces spread by 40%. (multiplier: 0.6)
Using iron sights reduces spread by 65%. (multiplier: 0.35)
No wonder it took you so long, you must have been barely hitting.

Fun is secondary.
I'm grateful that game designers, for all their many faults, ignore these wishes for the most part. Anyone who says "fun is secondary to my expectations" is not worth catering to.

Reality matters if a game uses real-life weaponry. "Damage treadmilling" is alright with melee weapons as it actually makes sense there, although it shouldn't be the only thing a weapon skill does.
Are you saying melee weapons aren't real-life weaponry? Lethal weapons can work in a RPG, just not a Fallout-style RPG where you are given the option of being able to run up to a group of guys with guns, bash their faces in with a metal fist or hammer, and live to tell the tale.

And the weapon skills don't just increase damage. Ranged skilled increase accuracy, melee skills increase speed and unlock special attacks.

Might have something to do with difficulty since I've only played the game on Very Hard. Yeah, yeah, you can probably kill most if not all enemies within seconds if you shoot them in the head constantly, but most of them can still take a full clip from an assault rifle and just shrug it off.
Very Hard just increases HP, it's a shitty-inherited feature from Fallout 3.

JSawyer's mod is not New Vegas.
It actually is, it's much closer to the game he would have made if he was making it solely for himself. The one that was shipped was intended for the Fallout 3 audience; unfortunately those people are kind of slow and have a low threshold for frustration.
On the other hand New Vegas' combat is more or less the same regardless of your skills. Gameplay differences between an experienced gunslinger and some never-held-a-gun-in-his-hands weakling aren't that noticeable, and increasing your weapon skills doesn't really let you do anything you couldn't already do anyway. You can unload a full clip into someone's face while strafing even if you haven't invested a single point into weapon skills. You get some gun sway here and some different numbers in VATS there, but at its core the combat stays the same.
Your claims are so at odds with what I played myself that I just don't know what to say. Some sort of odd posturing.

Anyway, I'm kind of tired of explaining this shit to you, so let's hear why you think New Vegas' combat is good and why Deus Ex has shitty combat.
It looks like I said some stuff here http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...never-could-finish.73155/page-14#post-2160231 There was another fairly recent thread but the OP/thread was nuked and I don't feel like typing it all out again. As for NV, I liked the weapon progression, making and using ammo subtypes, and how every weapon had its own niche with little-to-no overlap within a weapon tier. The combat areas I liked most were cazador country and Vault 34. There were a lot of things I didn't like, which is why I believe it's roughly comparable to Fallout 1/2 instead of "omg it blows it completely out of the water!"
 

Carrion

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If you're not aiming down the sights, your guns are even more inaccurate.

State effects combine multiplicatively.

Crouching reduces spread by 40%. (multiplier: 0.6)
Using iron sights reduces spread by 65%. (multiplier: 0.35)
No wonder it took you so long, you must have been barely hitting.
Yeah, seeing gallons of blood spilling from the enemy's head definitely suggested that I didn't really even hit him. I did use iron sights almost all the time, by the way, it's just that they're kind of just another tacked-on feature to make it seem like your skills would have an actual effect on something.

I'm grateful that game designers, for all their many faults, ignore these wishes for the most part. Anyone who says "fun is secondary to my expectations" is not worth catering to.
Yeah, whatever. Individual mechanics don't really have to be fun to justify their place in the game. There are tons of things in games that aren't fun, like dying. The fun usually comes from overcoming these aspects, or in the case of RPGs, seeing the effects of your choices in the chargen either pay off or bite you in the ass later in the game. Even though dying isn't fun, I do enjoy seeing my totally inexperienced character blow his own head off in Fallout. Watching your character miss with a sword nine times out of ten is defnitely not fun, but it makes it all the more fun when he finally becomes proficient with it and starts cutting people's heads off with ease. Stats in general do often make real-time combat less fun, but they can also make the overall game more fun as they add another layer of challenge into it and make the differences between different characters more visible. New Vegas has combat that isn't fun and isn't properly tied to the RPG mechanics either, so it's pretty much a failure on two levels.

Are you saying melee weapons aren't real-life weaponry? Lethal weapons can work in a RPG, just not a Fallout-style RPG where you are given the option of being able to run up to a group of guys with guns, bash their faces in with a metal fist or hammer, and live to tell the tale.
What I'm saying is that an expert of melee weapons can actually deal more damage with them in real life whereas a bullet's velocity is fixed. Being able to just take a beeline to a group of angry raiders out in the open and fuck them up with melee weapons is actually a big flaw and not an excuse for HP bloat or weak-ass guns.

And the weapon skills don't just increase damage. Ranged skilled increase accuracy, melee skills increase speed and unlock special attacks.
The problem is that the effect is minimal and many things are unaffected by stats. If you load a random savegame, take a random gun and fire it, you can't really tell whether your character is good or bad with guns. The special attacks are nice, but you get the best one for free early in the game and I don't think it even has skill requirements.

Very Hard just increases HP, it's a shitty-inherited feature from Fallout 3.
Agreed. Too bad that you either get HP bloat or a piss-easy game because they couldn't get the gunplay right.

It actually is, it's much closer to the game he would have made if he was making it solely for himself. The one that was shipped was intended for the Fallout 3 audience; unfortunately those people are kind of slow and have a low threshold for frustration.
You wish. I wish.

It looks like I said some stuff here http://www.rpgcodex.net/forums/inde...never-could-finish.73155/page-14#post-2160231 There was another fairly recent thread but the OP/thread was nuked and I don't feel like typing it all out again. As for NV, I liked the weapon progression, making and using ammo subtypes, and how every weapon had its own niche with little-to-no overlap within a weapon tier. The combat areas I liked most were cazador country and Vault 34. There were a lot of things I didn't like, which is why I believe it's roughly comparable to Fallout 1/2 instead of "omg it blows it completely out of the water!"
I don't really see you explaining anything in that thread. I only see you posting some mysterious pic about randomized accuracy, which Deus Ex doesn't really even have since you can take accurate shots even with a low weapon skill. Or maybe all accuracy is randomized since it always depends on the available weapon? Then there's the shrinking crosshair, but like I tried to explain, it does make sense and serve a purpose. As I see it, there haven't been any viable alternatives either in other games.

Weapon progression and combat areas don't really have anything to do with the actual combat mechanics, although I do think New Vegas did a good job with those (well, maybe a bit too many feral ghouls overall considering that they shouldn't even exist), as well as different ammo types. As far as firing a gun goes, it was a total and utter failure, both as a simulation and as a game.
 

Roguey

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Yeah, seeing gallons of blood spilling from the enemy's head definitely suggested that I didn't really even hit him. I did use iron sights almost all the time, by the way, it's just that they're kind of just another tacked-on feature to make it seem like your skills would have an actual effect on something.
"Using iron sights reduces spread by 65%. (multiplier: 0.35)" That's not "making it seem" that actually is making an effect. Fallout 3's completely-cosmetic zoom is an example of a tacked-on feature. Josh added some rules to make it play more like one of his favorite games, Call of Pripyat (this is also where fod/h20/slp requirements came from).

Yeah, whatever. Individual mechanics don't really have to be fun to justify their place in the game. There are tons of things in games that aren't fun, like dying. The fun usually comes from overcoming these aspects, or in the case of RPGs, seeing the effects of your choices in the chargen either pay off or bite you in the ass later in the game. Even though dying isn't fun, I do enjoy seeing my totally inexperienced character blow his own head off in Fallout. Watching your character miss with a sword nine times out of ten is defnitely not fun, but it makes it all the more fun when he finally becomes proficient with it and starts cutting people's heads off with ease. Stats in general do often make real-time combat less fun, but they can also make the overall game more fun as they add another layer of challenge into it and make the differences between different characters more visible. New Vegas has combat that isn't fun and isn't properly tied to the RPG mechanics either, so it's pretty much a failure on two levels.
Some kinds of frustration (like dying to an unfair fight that feels fair i.e. you can recognize the mistakes you made that made you lose) are fun. Some kinds of frustration aren't, and add nothing. Random critical failures aren't fun for me, neither is a 10% accuracy rating. And New Vegas does have that sense of progression because you're not going to be able win every combat challenge at level 1 with tier 1 equipment.

What I'm saying is that an expert of melee weapons can actually deal more damage with them in real life whereas a bullet's velocity is fixed.
A blade through the neck is a blade through the neck.
Being able to just take a beeline to a group of angry raiders out in the open and fuck them up with melee weapons is actually a big flaw and not an excuse for HP bloat or weak-ass guns.
That's the experience the team was going for in the original Fallout and Bethesda (and also Obsidian) thought it was important enough to preserve. Unless you think the power fist, super sledge, and ripper were just there for show.

The problem is that the effect is minimal and many things are unaffected by stats. If you load a random savegame, take a random gun and fire it, you can't really tell whether your character is good or bad with guns.
Crouch and aim down the sights, if there's massive wobble, you're bad with guns. Attack an enemy or group of enemies, if you're missing a lot and/or doing low damage you're bad with guns.

It actually is, it's much closer to the game he would have made if he was making it solely for himself. The one that was shipped was intended for the Fallout 3 audience; unfortunately those people are kind of slow and have a low threshold for frustration.
You wish. I wish.
But it is? Anyone with all the DLC can download it and play a better game. That caveat is a shame though.

I don't really see you explaining anything in that thread. I only see you posting some mysterious pic about randomized accuracy, which Deus Ex doesn't really even have since you can take accurate shots even with a low weapon skill. Or maybe all accuracy is randomized since it always depends on the available weapon? Then there's the shrinking crosshair, but like I tried to explain, it does make sense and serve a purpose. As I see it, there haven't been any viable alternatives either in other games.
That wasn't my only post in the thread. And Deus Ex does have randomized accuracy, it's the accuracy you get when you haven't taken the time to wait for the reticule to shrink. You don't believe there are any viable alternatives only because the better ways that already exist don't conform to your expectations.

Weapon progression and combat areas don't really have anything to do with the actual combat mechanics
Progression is a pretty important aspect of combat systems. Good content is also important; the best systems in the world are pointless if there's nothing interesting to do with them.
 

Carrion

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"Using iron sights reduces spread by 65%. (multiplier: 0.35)" That's not "making it seem" that actually is making an effect. Fallout 3's completely-cosmetic zoom is an example of a tacked-on feature. Josh added some rules to make it play more like one of his favorite games, Call of Pripyat (this is also where fod/h20/slp requirements came from).
Iron sights do increase your accuracy, but your skills play a fairly small part in it. I think it's a good feature, it's just that it's not executed very well and it's still a part of an otherwise bad system.

Some kinds of frustration (like dying to an unfair fight that feels fair i.e. you can recognize the mistakes you made that made you lose) are fun. Some kinds of frustration aren't, and add nothing. Random critical failures aren't fun for me, neither is a 10% accuracy rating. And New Vegas does have that sense of progression because you're not going to be able win every combat challenge at level 1 with tier 1 equipment.
I guess we agree to disagree then.

A blade through the neck is a blade through the neck.
Swinging the blade so that it actually goes through the neck is another thing entirely, though. Technique is more important than raw strength when punching someone in the face as well.

That's the experience the team was going for in the original Fallout and Bethesda (and also Obsidian) thought it was important enough to preserve. Unless you think the power fist, super sledge, and ripper were just there for show.
I'd rather just have melee/unarmed weapons for those situations when you're fighting in tight spaces or when you manage to succesfully ambush your enemies. Sneak upon a bunch of guys, knock one guy down, unarm another, stun the third and so on. The skills would also be useful if ammo was more limited and there were more enemies who used tire irons and sledge hammers instead of firearms.

Crouch and aim down the sights, if there's massive wobble, you're bad with guns. Attack an enemy or group of enemies, if you're missing a lot and/or doing low damage you're bad with guns.
I don't remember ever getting that much wobble even in the early parts of the game. I mean, at worst it's been something like you see in Operation Flashpoint or ArmA by default, which still lets you fire headshots at a medium range without problems. Since you do relatively low damage even with higher skill levels, it's also pretty difficult to estimate whether you're actually doing "low" or "high" damage if you have nothing to directly compare it to (like another save where you have the same weapons but a maxed out Guns skill).

But it is? Anyone with all the DLC can download it and play a better game. That caveat is a shame though.
It's still an unofficial mod that came out, what, more than a year after the game was released? I don't think you should judge a game based on its mods.

That wasn't my only post in the thread. And Deus Ex does have randomized accuracy, it's the accuracy you get when you haven't taken the time to wait for the reticule to shrink. You don't believe there are any viable alternatives only because the better ways that already exist don't conform to your expectations.
How is it any different from New Vegas where you're less accurate if you're standing up or not aiming down the sights? I mean, in most shooters from the last 15 years or so your character's position and movement has an effect on her accuracy. Isn't that randomized accuracy too?

I do believe there are viable alternatives, I just haven't seen any yet, at least properly executed. To me New Vegas' system is just too detached from reality, and the low damage and a lack of recoil among other things mean that the game lacks the punch that firing a gun should have.

Progression is a pretty important aspect of combat systems. Good content is also important; the best systems in the world are pointless if there's nothing interesting to do with them.
Yeah, true. I'm more interested in the act of firing a weapon and every factor that affects it, i.e. the very basic mechanics of the combat system, though. Aside from the poor AI, I think that's where New Vegas' problems are as far as combat is concerned.
 

Stinger

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FNV is pretty great, it's one of the few games where the C&C is really good not only in terms of how many major choices there are but also how difficult the choices can be.

It's not often you get to see choices that are actually subjective and not just a purely objective "Good" "Evil" "Non-standard game over" set of consequences.

And of course quest design is great too.

It's among my top 10 favourite RPGs, though like Jaesun I really wish someone would remake it as a cRPG on an engine that isn't utter balls.
 
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Jack

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Anyone who considers New Vegas combat good has a brain tumor.
This pretty much, the kinaesthetics sucks donkey balls and the stats doesn't affect it nearly as much as it should. Now Fallout wasn't exactly a shining example of good combat either but it was way more satisfying.
 

Gozma

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Aug 1, 2012
Messages
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There is so little necessary combat in the original FO it's kinda ridiculous. Combat in that game has no purpose except being the thing you are doing RPG level-uppa shit for, basically. I replayed recently it after having become the kind of dude that plays ironman style automatically (in the past having played it mostly as a build-tard that just wanted to see his character designs mow shit down) and the random-ass instadeath critical combat really lends itself to playing it as an adventure game plus featherweight combat like Quest for Glory.

Gonna get FNV in the christmas sale on steam I reckon, hold onto your balls for intense criticism incoming
 

Gord

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the kinaesthetics sucks donkey balls

The kinaesthetics? Did you just open the dictionary to find a cool sounding word or is this one of those cases where the meaning of a word gets slowly transformed to something else (cf. visceral).
 

Gord

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Messages
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I see, so kinaesthetics is the new visceral :M

What is it supposed to mean, though? The real meaning, afaik, is (roughly) the sensory input/experience of one's movements.
 

Roguey

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I don't remember ever getting that much wobble even in the early parts of the game. I mean, at worst it's been something like you see in Operation Flashpoint or ArmA by default, which still lets you fire headshots at a medium range without problems.
That's the point, as long as you meet the skill/strength requirements you won't see any. It's there when you try to pick up a 50/75/100 skill gun when you only have 25.

Since you do relatively low damage even with higher skill levels, it's also pretty difficult to estimate whether you're actually doing "low" or "high" damage if you have nothing to directly compare it to (like another save where you have the same weapons but a maxed out Guns skill).
How much health you take away from an opponent, how many shots it takes to down them. I one-shotted the legendary deathclaw (who has the most HP in the base campaign) with a sneak critical from the anti-materiel rifle. That's at least 1000 points of damage there. Even had I not been sneaking, I would have been able to kill it within 5 head shots or 5-10 torso shots. You call that "relatively low damage"?

It's still an unofficial mod that came out, what, more than a year after the game was released? I don't think you should judge a game based on its mods.
Normally I'd agree, but this came from the lead designer. He's more properly executing his vision without external time or casual audience concerns.

How is it any different from New Vegas where you're less accurate if you're standing up or not aiming down the sights? I mean, in most shooters from the last 15 years or so your character's position and movement has an effect on her accuracy. Isn't that randomized accuracy too?
Like those other shooters, New Vegas gives you a quick way to deal with the lousy stock accuracy. Having an active way to handle it is better than doing nothing while a reticule shrinks.
 

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