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So, anyone playing League of Legends?

Hellraiser

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Unsurprisingly he is on the riot to nerf list.

Source of this? Because Ryze has been terrorizing the competitive scene for a few months now with no nerfs in sight (aside from the WotA nerf, which hurts the likes of Vladimir/Kennen more anyways)

Can't find the post ATM, either way it was a red post on the lol boards mentioning something about Ryze being a top pick/ban and that riot is working on it. It was an offhand comment said in addition to the main topic. Something along the lines of "we want to make champ X more viable but at the moment the balance team is working on ryze who is a top pick/ban". My memory is a bit wonky on the details.

But anyway since he has been terrorizing the competitive for so long it would be hardly surprising if they nerfed Ryze. He just isn't FotM yet which is why he somehow managed to avoid the nerf so far I guess.

In other news Ziggs' ult travel time is indeed bullshit, it is easier to hit you with it than with lux's laser at all ranges. Unless you flash the second the warning appears you will get hit if he aimed directly for you.

Also apparently the counter to Kennen mid is Viktor, no seriously. He can't lightning rush (or how is it called) into you because you just drop W in his path, stun him, Q+E and walk away or go for the kill with ult+ignite.
 

Grunker

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In other news Ziggs' ult travel time is indeed bullshit, it is easier to hit you with it than with lux's laser at all ranges.

fucking lol is all I have to say about this

If he didn't hit with at least the 75% the randomness of his ult would tear him down completely. Avoiding the 100% damage is fucking easy, and hitting at long ranges is seriously difficult because there is so much time in which enemy champions will probably move.
 

Mystary!

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Well you need to use it like you use Pantheons ult, to cut off escape routes, so they either have to run back into your team mates or into your ult.
 

Hellraiser

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In other news Ziggs' ult travel time is indeed bullshit, it is easier to hit you with it than with lux's laser at all ranges.

fucking lol is all I have to say about this

If he didn't hit with at least the 75% the randomness of his ult would tear him down completely. Avoiding the 100% damage is fucking easy, and hitting at long ranges is seriously difficult because there is so much time in which enemy champions will probably move.

It is still too fucking easy to hit a target with it, the random damage just makes it balanced. I'm just pissed off that riot added a warning on the damn thing that only does crap if you have flash available or a blink as part of your kit. On one hand they keep whining that the meta is too flash-dependent on the other they are introducing more and more abilities which you can avoid only by using it. You can dodge lux's, ez's and ashe's ult without flash easily even if it is aimed directly at you without flash if you react fast enough. Ziggs' you cannot if the player aimed it properly, at best you can reduce the damage you receive.

I am very butthurt because of that :rpgcodex:
 

Grunker

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Dodge a Lux ult completely and it's up again in a sec. Even with this she's one of the weakest champs in the game. Dodge an Ez ult and he has his AD - it's by no means core to his ability to do damage. Dodge a fucking AP Carry's ultimate? GG AP. I think it's pretty intentional that the timer only allows you to dodge the core 100% damage or if you're already on the edges. Add more time and Ziggs' uselesness would be complete.

I've already to decided not substitute Ziggs with Brand. They have roughly the same damage output in roughly the same way, but Brand's hard CC and better ability to land his skill-shots for that "sure" damage makes the pick between the two easy for me. Ziggs will arguably have a better lane when I get really good at him, but he is much worse than Brand in direct 1v1 fights.

And he suffers from mana-shortage if he spams his Q, which is what gives him the good laning edge (both because it can zone the enemy champ and because it procs his passive which in essence is what this champ really has going for himself).
 

Grunker

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In short, Ziggs ult is what you QQ about if you don't have a clue, in my opinion, because TONS OF DAMAGE NO TIME TO MOVE OUT OMG. What you SHOULD QQ about is his insane zoning power in mid with a blue buff. I'm not good enough to utilize it completely yet, but I can conjure a scenario in which Ziggs in the hands of a pro will boss the middle lane so hard he needs a nerf.

Note that I am saying nothing with authority, these are just my educated guesses after playing a lot since he came out.
 

Grunker

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Well you need to use it like you use Pantheons ult, to cut off escape routes, so they either have to run back into your team mates or into your ult.

Yes and no. There are situations where this is a good use for it, but if it comes down to a close team-fight in mid-game, the AP Carry's ult is extremely necessary to win, especially when you run a "classic" all-around damage-mage like Ziggs. In my mind he competes directly with the likes of Brand here, the main difference being that he has no hard CC but a very skill-intensive escape mechanism. In other words, sometimes he will need to land that damage. He doesn't, team-fights will be lost most assuredly.

I fucking love how this champion is designed. He's one of the first true new breaths of fresh air we've had in a long time. His kit is unique and interesting, and extremely skill intesive in most cases. You always have 3-4 decisions on how to use your next ability.
 

Hellraiser

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Yes but how far away are you exactly from your target during a team fight? The answer is not that far at all, my only beef is with how fast it travels at long range if they would nerf that it would not affect his damage output in teamfights by much, just add like 0,5 sec on max range. At a standard range (which is you sitting in the back behind the beefy champs) during a team fight you would get a travel time increase so low it wouldn't even be noticeable. He's too good at just walking away a bit and bombing a side lane greatly helping that lane while getting back in lane in no time at all.

Really only Karthus and maybe GP can do that more easily, ez's and ashe's can be dodged easily while lux's has a far shorter range. Karthus pays for having his ult with a high CD, high mana cost, long cast time and meh AP ratio (and it's his only long range damaging skills) while GP's is random damage most of which is easily avoidable and usually you just use it for the slow anyway. Ziggs needs a laughable 100 mana to cast his ult, the cooldown is pretty decent, the area of effect ridiculously large. The only drawback is that you do 25% less damage if you do not hit with the center oh and maybe it won't come off CD when you need it in lane. Not hitting anyone at all is hard due to it's radius. If karthus fails an ult it really hampers his laning because you need that mana and if the enemy gets out of defile range you can't really do crap. Ziggs does not share that problem IMO.

His zoning is annoying but to be honest I find cassio to be more of a pain, she doesn't run out of mana as fast in my experience. Which is why I can see him with blue becoming a real pain. The thing is though if he ends up using that blue to it's fullest he will just keep pushing the lane, cassio has the same problem. That leaves you open to a gank which is bad unless you know exactly where the enemy jungler is and you know neither of the side lanes will come to gank. But if one is not coming you deny farm hard and the enemy can't do jack about it.

I do agree that his kit is very versatile.
 

Grunker

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Yes but how far away are you exactly from your target during a team fight? The answer is not that far at all, my only beef is with how fast it travels at long range if they would nerf that it would not affect his damage output in teamfights by much, just add like 0,5 sec on max range. At a standard range (which is you sitting in the back behind the beefy champs) during a team fight you would get a travel time increase so low it wouldn't even be noticeable. He's too good at just walking away a bit and bombing a side lane greatly helping that lane while getting back in lane in no time at all.

Come on, man. You're on the other side of the ult. When I ult I always feel the travel time is far too long because I'm the one wanting to see it land, I'm the one seeing people escaping it. It's about perspective, but if you take a step back you'll see that simply a long range ult that hits most of the time is in itself not unbalanced in anyway. You're not saying anything about numbers or his kit in general, you're making the claim that it's unbalanced just because you can't walk from the ult center to the edge in the travel time.

Why? In which relation are you making this claim? Your way of arguing is absurd.

Really only Karthus and maybe GP can do that more easily, ez's and ashe's can be dodged easily while lux's has a far shorter range. Karthus pays for having his ult with a high CD, high mana cost, long cast time and meh AP ratio (and it's his only long range damaging skills) while GP's is random damage most of which is easily avoidable and usually you just use it for the slow anyway. Ziggs needs a laughable 100 mana to cast his ult, the cooldown is pretty decent, the area of effect ridiculously large. The only drawback is that you do 25% less damage if you do not hit with the center oh and maybe it won't come off CD when you need it in lane. Not hitting anyone at all is hard due to it's radius. If karthus fails an ult it really hampers his laning because you need that mana and if the enemy gets out of defile range you can't really do crap. Ziggs does not share that problem IMO.

You can't just take a couple of champion's ults and compare, you gotta take into consideration the champion as a whole. Even IF I accepted your way arguing Karthus' ult is a sure-fire hit on all champs, so of course it needs bigger cost and bigger CD. Not that I think you can compare a bruiser like GP with a mid-laner like Ziggs at all, but even if you could, GP's range is the entire map, the area of effect is larger, and the ult has CC.

You are arguing from an extremely narrow perspective. The point is not "is the travel time too long/too short" but "how is the champion all in all - and if there's a problem with parts of his kit, what practical implications do they have and why are they a problem?"


In short, I disagree strongly with you, and would like to add an annoying "this is why we can't have nice things." They did something different with Ziggs, and already people are comparing him to a bunch of other champs saying "they don't have this, he must be overpowered". In my mind, his laning is the most powerful (because of the way Q works and the long range, he doesn't even have to push his lane to zone such as you claim, he can throw the bomb at range avoiding creep hitting, run around creep, auto-attack with passive, and get away with W). If anything needs a nerf, it's that... But the intensity with which his mana drains makes up for it I think.

Like I said, at this point my initial thoughts are "I'd take Brand or Cass over this any day."
 

Hellraiser

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Except that I don't think he is broken, I just think he can have too much of an impact on other lanes with little effort (doesn't need to get that close + doesn't lose much cs if at all + doesn't risk losing tower + low mana and decent CD kength = low risk = no-brainer decision to bomb a side lane if there is an opportunity). I think he needs a minor tweak on projectile speed on one skill because it is too good in one specific niche. That's it. You see people escaping I see people getting blasted and even double kills when a ziggs mid walks away for 5 seconds to throw his ult and returns to farming/zoning. I could be arguing for a mana cost increase, cooldown increase or damage nerf. Yet I am not. Why? Because I understand why he needs these numbers at at least their current level to be viable.

I am not calling for nerfing him to the ground. Everything else is arguably balanced about him because cass, brand can more or less do the same or are outright better and Ziggs remains a strong laner anyway. Unless the two champs mentioned became suddenly OP then Ziggs certainly is not OP because of his laning. I disagree with your opinion on his ult good sir Grunker :obviously:
 
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1) Pick Kayle

2) Gank the fuck out of mid, feeding yourself and the AP Carry.

3) Constantly be in the right place at the right time to save someone with your ultimate and then sucessfully countergank.

4) Get whined at by your feeding AD Carry for not ulting them when you'd used it earlier in the fight.

5) Let him die on purpose when he gets ganked while AFK farming.

6) Feel like a boss.

:troll:



As for Ziggs - he's mostly fine, apart from the cooldown on his Q is too low and the scaling on his R is too high. Annoying to lane against, especially when he gets blue buff, but there are other AP characters that are scarier.
 
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As far as I'm really concerned; Wit's End, Nashor's Tooth and the Rageblade are the way to go for damage. But that's one of the things about Kayle - the optimal build for her is unknown.

The new Starks went from being a must have to being pretty useless, sadly :(
 

Darth Roxor

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The guy gives pretty good reasoning as to why not bother with Nashor's Tooth and Rageblade in the guide, though. The AP scaling on her shit is pathetic, not nearly as good as it used to be. Especially with the passive rework.
 
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The thing is - I don't think AP on Kayle is bad. The scaling is bad, yeah, but with those 2 items you get so many other stats that you want and Divine Blessing does heal a decent amount of health. Mostly though - they're good items that give amazing stats for their cost, and Kayle is strongest around midgame.

I don't go with them for their AP, but it isn't wasted.
 

Mystary!

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Yeah naturally, in team fight most people wont notice the target circle anyway so just bomb away. Other good uses is of course stealing dragons and barons. Place a ward at their blue and steal that too!
 

Grunker

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Undead Phoenix: [NERDRAGE ENGAGED] COOLDOWN ON HIS Q TOO LOW?!?!?!? YOU REALIZE HE IS AN AP CARRY WHO CAN USE TWO OF HIS ABILITIES MAYBE ONCE PER TEAM-FIGHT BECAUSE THEIR COOLDOWNS ARE INSANELY HIGH AND EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS ABILITIES ARE SKILLSHOTS, RIGHT!?!?!?!?!?11+1pe[/NERDRAGE DISENGAGED]

Seriously, nerf his Q by upping its cooldown and it's a big, thunderous GG for Ziggs. With 40% cooldown on level 18 his W is 15.86 and his E is 11.40 (I think those are the exact numbers, at least they're very close). In lane the cooldowns are about 28/16.

Up the cooldown on his Q and you kill this champ stone-dead. Add to this that every single one of his abilities can miss and you get one fucked up shitty champ if he isn't even able to spam Q.

At least, that's my opinion.
 

Xi

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They changed/improved Vlad?
I hate this game, I don't want to keep up with all this constantly.

I stopped playing for similar reason. Such a time sink too. After a long day at work, coming home and trying to play LoL was far too stressful. My play sessions would be good one day and horrible the next. Lol, I guess I just can't keep up with it anymore. Meh, so be it... I have many other hobbies anyway.
 
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Undead Phoenix: [NERDRAGE ENGAGED] COOLDOWN ON HIS Q TOO LOW?!?!?!? YOU REALIZE HE IS AN AP CARRY WHO CAN USE TWO OF HIS ABILITIES MAYBE ONCE PER TEAM-FIGHT BECAUSE THEIR COOLDOWNS ARE INSANELY HIGH AND EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS ABILITIES ARE SKILLSHOTS, RIGHT!?!?!?!?!?11+1pe[/NERDRAGE DISENGAGED]

Seriously, nerf his Q by upping its cooldown and it's a big, thunderous GG for Ziggs. With 40% cooldown on level 18 his W is 15.86 and his E is 11.40 (I think those are the exact numbers, at least they're very close). In lane the cooldowns are about 28/16.

Up the cooldown on his Q and you kill this champ stone-dead. Add to this that every single one of his abilities can miss and you get one fucked up shitty champ if he isn't even able to spam Q.

At least, that's my opinion.

I'm only suggesting by 1 or 2 seconds. Coming from someone whose preferred mage champion is Xerath okay, that's a lie - but I don't get to play Zilean often, Ziggs just seems too rewarding with how well Q works with his passive in lane.
 

Phage

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Really sad that there's so much Ziggs QQ going around. Usually Riot tends to nerf when there's enough moaning about a champion, even though they refuse to touch the truly insane champs (Cass, Ryze, Xerath, Sona come to mind)
 

Grunker

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That's why I rage so much. I would hate to see Ziggs become yet another fun, inventive champ banished to the depths of Tier Hell because people cried about him. I hate this extra much because this happens more to AP carries than to anyone else, because people cry more about AP carries because of their high burst damage (which they are supposed to have).

So yeah. I'm not even sure Ziggs is viable as it is right now. Let him at least have 3 or 4 months in the game's environment before making a decision...
 

Jaedar

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Project: Eternity Shadorwun: Hong Kong Divinity: Original Sin 2 Pathfinder: Kingmaker
noobs qq when they get raped cause they suck.

More news on page 111.
 
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With the kit that Ziggs has, I doubt he'll be useless unless Riot nerf his ratios into the ground. So much potential in it.
 

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