So... How did you feel about Pillars of Eternity?

[Lhynn]

I'm pretty sure Classic Codex would have enjoyed PoE far more than BG.

You are not setting the bar too high, but i somehow doubt it, both writing and mechanics work better in BG.

Less than Torment and Fallout of course.

Of course.

 

[Roguey]

We will never know.
Half of "Classic Codex" has you on ignore.

Because you said this I went and checked the joindates of everyone who ignores me. Only one of them is from 2004, and no one earlier than that (as far as I'm concerned, Classic Codex ended with the dissolution of Troika)

writing

No.

 

[Immortal]

Because you said this I went and checked the joindates of everyone who ignores me. Only one of them is from 2004, and no one earlier than that (as far as I'm concerned, Classic Codex ended with the dissolution of Troika)

Why? was there a massive hemorrhaging of members?

 

[Roguey]

Why? was there a massive hemorrhaging of members?

The nature of the Codex changed when mainstream PC RPGs died, just as it changed again when Kickstarter brought them back.

 

[Lhynn]

No.

Sorry to inform you that writing is of better quality in BG1 than it is in PoE, Durance and maybe GM excluded. Only a single bit of the entirety of PoE lore is appealing in any way, and it really doesnt matter gameplay wise. From characterization to world building its all fucking shit.

 

[Roguey]

Sorry to inform you that writing is of better quality in BG1 than it is in PoE, Durance and maybe GM excluded. Only a single bit of the entirety of PoE lore is appealing in any way, and it really doesnt matter gameplay wise. From characterization to world building its all fucking shit.

What I read in the almanac and the guidebook blew Greenwood's hackery out of the water, and BG's characters are barely existent and the stockiest of stock.

 

[Lhynn]

What I read in the almanac and the guidebook blew Greenwood's hackery out of the water, and BG's characters are barely existent and the stockiest of stock.

You forget they are games about having adventures in a fantasy world roguey. I would have thought youd be able to apretiate writing that is fitting from both a gameplay and narrative perspective.
When the actual gameplay is divorced from the world building and the narrative i cant call it anything else short of incompetent. I thought they had gotten this shit down in new vegas, this is an abysmal step down.

 

[Immortal]

The nature of the Codex changed when mainstream PC RPGs died, just as it changed again when Kickstarter brought them back.

What can change the nature of a codex?

 

[Roguey]

You forget they are games about having adventures in a fantasy world roguey. I would have thought youd be able to apretiate writing that is fitting from both a gameplay and narrative perspective.
When the actual gameplay is divorced from the world building and the narrative i cant call it anything else short of incompetent. I thought they had gotten this shit down in new vegas, this is an abysmal step down.

Icewind Dale series did it better than BG.

 

[Immortal]

Icewind Dale series did it better than BG.

Not really.. Icewind dale is too linear.. Every time you start getting that feeling.. (exploring Kulduhar or seeing a cinematic) it is quickly robbed when you know you must now venture to Dungeon 3 and kill the Baddy / Grab the Mcguffin.
Especially playing IWD after BG 1.. where you went from large open ended cities and quests to a train track style of pacing.

 

[Roguey]

I was referring to the writing, pal.

 

[Immortal]

I was referring to the writing, pal.

Yea the writing for the game is hamstrung by the linear plot. BG1 has a much greater "sense of adventure" the problem is you didn't play the game until like last year.

You managed to crit tarnish at friendly arm inn and now the whole game is easy and posed you no challenge. Maybe if you played it 15 years ago you would have experienced it differently.

For me it was a magical journey!


EDIT:
Okay I am done Editting


EDIT EDIT:
Okay Now

 

[Roguey]

Yea the writing for the game is hamstrung by the linear plot.

With this reasoning BG>Torment and that's ridiculous.

 

[abnaxus]

Roguey where's your PoE review

 

[Infinitron]

Fun fact about PoE writing - it's one of the few trad-fant games I can think of where the longevity of elves comes up as a plot point fairly often (many of them were alive when the Dyrwood was founded).

 

[Roguey]

Roguey where's your PoE review

I'm still playing Wasteland 2 and after that I'll assess whether or not PoE is ready for playing.

 

[Sensuki]

No.

Yes, even though it's very clear that the writing is in 'different leagues'. BG's story and plot actually work (mostly due to simplicity) whereas Pillars is just full of issues. The 'general' writing tone and quality is more consistent in Pillars of Eternity but the amount of exposition and overdescription makes a lot of dialogues annoying to read. Baldur's Gate has an inconsistent tone, and quality in a lot of cases is not as good (and where it is, it's due to simplicity or 'cool').

Pillars has the advantage of 17 or so years of 'gaming writing' progression. Wordy RPGs weren't really around when BG was. You would naturally expect there to be large improvements in this department, but it's super disappointing that the story and plot and execution of them are so shit.

 

[Roguey]

Where the Wild Things Are has better writing than A Tale of Two Cities because it's not overwritten xD

 

[Sensuki]

Haven't read A Tale of Two Cities but I doubt that the plot & story are as poorly executed as they are in Pillars of Eternity, so I doubt the analogy works.

 

[Lhynn]

Icewind Dale series did it better than BG.

Na, BG1 had some nice bits, like the war brewing, the iron crisis, etc. And it all tied into the gameplay, especially in the latter parts of the game.

 

[IHaveHugeNick]

Yes, even though it's very clear that the writing is in 'different leagues'. BG's story and plot actually work (mostly due to simplicity) whereas Pillars is just full of issues. The 'general' writing tone and quality is more consistent in Pillars of Eternity but the amount of exposition and overdescription makes a lot of dialogues annoying to read. Baldur's Gate has an inconsistent tone, and quality in a lot of cases is not as good (and where it is, it's due to simplicity or 'cool').

Pillars has the advantage of 17 or so years of 'gaming writing' progression. Wordy RPGs weren't really around when BG was. You would naturally expect there to be large improvements in this department, but it's super disappointing that the story and plot and execution of them are so shit.

You kind of have to do a lot of exposition when you're introducing a completely new setting. That's unfortunately unavoidable. Likewise with descriptions. They don't have advantage of showing facial animations during dialogue, nor they can afford full and competent voice cast to add tone to the dialogues. So what's left? Descriptions.

And I don't know how did you even come up with an idea that it has 17 years of advantage, when no games of this type were actually made in last 17 years. Lol. The narrative techniques in gaming have evolved, yeah, but not in text heavy games, because those aren't being made.

The biggest problem with Pillars is that there's no real plot hook to speak off. until you finish Act 2. Figuring out the plot IS the plot. I guess they tried to go for Erikson style but it didn't really work out.

 

[Sensuki]

Well the thing is that Josh Sawyer specifically stated that they wouldn't be doing exposition heavy dialogue and they ended up doing super-exposition heavy dialogue. Even for a new setting they just went way way overboard with it. And with the PS:T style descriptions they needlessly described so many things (like stuff you could see in a picture or in the character portrait or game world). Don't remember seeing this happen in PS:T for what I played of it.

I suppose you're right about game writing not 'advancing' since Planescape Torment, although Obsidian talked a lot about "how much they've learned writing their other games" and they spouted all this shit about how they're pros and did a bunch of presentations and blog posts and stuff ... and yet they produce a game that has their worst writing since NWN2? (possibly their worst written game, except for maybe DS3 which I haven't played?) ... how does that work exactly? Especially with the experienced writing staff they have on the team.

I don't even really care that much about writing in games, it's just that you expect because it's an Obsidian game that even if the gameplay is going to be fucking shit (which it is) that the writing/story would at least be good ... and then that fucking disappoints you as well.

on the Erikson thing I do remember George Ziets stating in 2013 that the writing was very Mazalan Book of the Fallen.

 

[Kem0sabe]

You kind of have to do a lot of exposition when you're introducing a completely new setting. That's unfortunately unavoidable. Likewise with descriptions. They don't have advantage of showing facial animations during dialogue, nor they can afford full and competent voice cast to add tone to the dialogues. So what's left? Descriptions.

And I don't know how did you even come up with an idea that it has 17 years of advantage, when no games of this type were actually made in last 17 years. Lol. The narrative techniques in gaming have evolved, yeah, but not in text heavy games, because those aren't being made.

The biggest problem with Pillars is that there's no real plot hook to speak off. until you finish Act 2. Figuring out the plot IS the plot. I guess they tried to go for Erikson style but it didn't really work out.

Arcanum introduced a new and more complex setting with considerably less exposition and much more effectively.

You don't need walls of text to convey a sense of wonder and impart interest in exploration of the setting upon the player.

Tho Arcanum did end up declining as the game went on, but to a much lesser degree than PoE did.

 

[Sensuki]

Indeed. It's a game ... visual storytelling ... etc

 

[Roguey]

Arcanum introduced a new and more complex setting with considerably less exposition and much more effectively.

Arcanum was "stock fantasy undergoing an industrial revolution." That's a simple high concept.

PoE probably has too much dry exposition but you can't pitch its setting in a single sentence.