So, you're to cool for Oblivion? Why?

[Sycandre]

Oblivion is said to have corrected some MW problems... among which how hard it was for some gamers to understand what they had to do in their quests!!! That is, though Oblivion appears to have more colored quests than MW Fedex ones, those quests will probably be even less challenging from the RPG point of view than MW ones.

So, we've got the focus group who couldn't find Caius and says To Hit rolls are stupid, the Tod says there will be more hand holding and compass pointing and 'kinetic' fighting, then MSFD says how complex the new quest lines are, so my question would be; how can you have more complexity whilst removing the need for the player to think?

You write a book, with a complexe plot; but one the reader/PC do not have to solve himself. The player won't have to think to find the solutions (Go to place X, meet miste Y), but will witness a complexe intrigue (Betrayals, secrets...). I think it is a bad concept, for you won't lure trained role players into thinking your game is challenging because of your complexe plot, and I fear those who don't want to think will appreciate to have their action game in a too complexe story.

Bethy should accept that there are different type of gamers, and that what is fun for some of them, maybe a chore for others. They are removing the fun of Role players because it bored action gamers, and they are introducing more fun for action gamers, thinking it won't harm RPGamers fun... I would have prefered TES to be a game for Roleplayers, and continue to have action gamers look at us as weirdoos, who can enjoy games where you don't have to use all your fingers at once to control the interface.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

diablo wasnt an rpg there was no roleplaying

I don't think I'd want to kick the rogue-likes out of the genre just because they lack dialogue choices and decision making beyond how you build around the molds of your character type.

 

[kingcomrade]

I've always just considered dungeon-crawlers to be a sub-genre of RPGs. They were inspired by proper RPGs, after all.

 

[franc kaos]

Bethy should accept that there are different type of gamers, and that what is fun for some of them, maybe a chore for others. They are removing the fun of Role players because it bored action gamers, and they are introducing more fun for action gamers, thinking it won't harm RPGamers fun... I would have prefered TES to be a game for Roleplayers, and continue to have action gamers look at us as weirdoos, who can enjoy games where you don't have to use all your fingers at once to control the interface.

Or (and I know, this will never happen due to budget and time constraints), hide a faction within the game, say The Nine Divines - really hard to join, who have the Holy Staff of Whacking and know of the illegal levitating spell, and who's quests are of the investigative kind, where you actually have a choice of quests, you lose respect if you have to kill to achieve your goals, and each individual 'member' has their own life story and point of view.

One quest line could be searching for a tortured spirit and laying it to rest (not by whacking an incorporeal soul with a material sword and 'killing' it, tho' let it be an option and kick you out of the guild because he had some treasure the guild wanted but never mentioned). By discovering his story and bringing his villains to justice, ie, arresting them, giving them religion, handing them over to your guild, or killing them actually changes the guild. In fact, the spirit wants them dead, but the guild wants them alive, and the guards could care less, which path you take dictates your standing and consequent dialogue options.

If I was cleverer, or less lazy, I'd mod the guild in myself (maybe an offshoot of one of the nine divines so as not to impact the main storyline). In fact, what would be nice is if a group of modders could get it together since the mod would be huge.

Who shall call his dreams fallacious / who has searched or sought / all the unexplored and spacious / universe of thought?

 

[Section8]

this site does seem to parody minor religious sects and their somewhat self-inflicted obscurity. can anyone direct me to the rpg development success stories inspired by this codexian idealism?

Does it matter? We're just putting our various points of view out there for anyone who wants to listen. Better than just shutting up and rolling with the punches. Can you direct us to any example where silent acceptance has ever helped anyone change things in their favour? Or for that matter, any examples where unquestioned affirmation in response to all questions has improved anything?

 

[Here2Argue]

... but after reading a rash of Oblivion/Bethesda related bashing

Alot of very good discussion and criticism on Oblivion are here if you look.

You also have to understand the Codex. It is like a giant pile of Shit... in which is buried a single brillant gem.

If you wade through all the shit, you can find some very good gems of discussion.
:D

So wait, you mean you're here for the Gems?

Man, I've just been wallowing for the hell of it.

 

[Data4]

Man, I've given this more thought than necessary, but I've had what I'm about to say rolling around in my head for awhile. It just took a little bit before the articulation decided to come online, and even that isn't guaranteed.

Before I truly answer the question this thread poses, allow me to paint a picture of a roleplayer from my perspective. In essence, I guess I describing myself, but I'm sure there may be one or two who can agree with my points.

In the beginning, there was PnP. Not too many people could get into it, because it involved a lot of raw data and challenged the players individually to build the game around it. That in itself created a delineator between RPGer and non-RPGer in a very, very broad sense. Those of us who persevered tended to have similar qualities: Vivid imagination, above-average intelligence, ecclectic senses of humor, and people skills that left a lot to be desired. Some of us have a fondness for the fantasy classics, like Tolkien and C.S. Lewis. Some of us also share a love for the more modern fantasy literature put out by anyone from Weis & Hickman to George R. R. Martin. With that may be an enjoyment of science fiction in various degrees

What some of us found-- myself in particular-- was that those we eventually grouped up with to share a game over the ubiquitous take-out pizza and endless supply of Mountain Dew became a "safe" group. We could relax and be ourselves, comfortable in knowing that no one would, for a lack of understanding, riducule the general weirdness we exemplified. Out in the world, in school, among non-gamers and average, ordinary people, we were nerds, geeks, and objects of scorn, so we placed a certain value on those groups of people we'd hang out with an roleplay with. You never had to worry about someone not getting your vague, Monty Python inspired joke, and you could always talk about the general silliness about something as goofy as The Princess Bride (why do a lot of us RPG geeks love that movie so?).

So now, we enter the world of computer games. Just like most things in life, such as movies and music, these games started to split up among genres. You had your action games, shoot-em-ups, sports games, platformers, FPSes, and of course Roleplaying Games. Now, we can argue til the end of time what makes a good RPG and what doesn't, but I'd be willing to bet good money that the people who played RPGs starting from... oh... 2000 and back, probably shared some common characteristics of the old school PnP RPGer. Intelligent, ecclectic, imaginative, and with that same weird sense of humor that only few people get.

Now, what does this have to do with this thread? It's simple. Simpletons are being let into the club. Morons who would dare call more serious players "nerds" in a derogatory way for wanting some tradition maintained in the RPG genre. Idiots who can't even follow basic directions for accomplishing tasks in a game. I know the "those who can't find Caius" argument will turn into it's very own version of "SOILS EROZIONS!!!", but the significance of it is too apparant.

I don't like to associate with people lower than me on an intellectual scale. I don't apologize for the elitsim that oozes. I am an elitist. Don't like it? Fuck you. I don't like hanging around with stupid people, because as is often the case, when they don't understand the level I'm operating on, they accuse ME of being stupid, and you simply cannot argue with them. If I decide I want to be a part of an online community centering around RPGs, I don't expect someone to berate me for wanting to do a little reading in the game. I don't expect to see a modding community littered with people who want stupid shit like Masterchief armor made for Morrowind. Or machine guns (not including total conversions. I'm talking about people who want to dress the Nereverine with high tech gear and sent him out to conquer Vvardenfell.).

Here's an example taken from a situation in World of Warcraft several months back. Now, before you go off on me about how much the game sucks, I will admit that the mechanics of it doesn't allow for true stats-based RP other than to take part in what feels more like an interactive Disney attraction than anything else. However, with the right group of people, good, creative, freeform roleplay can happen, and sometimes it's great fun. Too bad you have to literally sift through elephant shit to find them, but I digress. The guild I was in was recruiting. We were a roleplaying guild on a roleplaying server. I had my own criteria for who I wanted to play with. They simply had to answer a few questions. They were:

1. What is the answer to the question of Life, the Universe, and Everything?
2. What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?
3. Who did Raistlin take the place of when he went back in time?

Those who could answer those questions turned out to be fantastic roleplayers and great people all around. Those who couldn't usually told me I was stupid for giving people a quiz to join my guild and oh, btw "u r a nerdd!!11"

So, what does this have to do with Oblivion? Simple. Bethesda made a business decision that's probably as sound as any on Wall Street. They chose to go for the widest possible group they could. It's first person and includes a fireball shooting gun. It's got high paid voice actors. It looks breathtaking in parts. And best of all, it's got a built-in GPS so players don't have to resort to that pesky deductive reasoning based on dilligent information gathering that their clueless "Can't find Caius" focus group lacked. The Oblivion forum itself is a textbook case of what happens when stupid people are let into RPGdom. Not all of them are stupid, mind you, but if the posts there are indicative of the generation that's going to run things ten years for now, my hopes for this world are dashed.

So to wrap this all up, I'll just repeat what I said in my first post in this thread. I'm not too cool for Oblivion. Just too smart for it. If that bothers you, I invite you to suck the remnants of the last crap I took from my rectum.

-D4

 

[Sycandre]

Well, i wouldn't be so definitive in saying RPGamers are brillant genius, ununderstood by a stupid population.

But I would say Role playing is a specific gaming genre, with its references, and requiring its players some qualities other games don't (among which a lot are intellectual ones).

As a FPS will require some specific player "skills", as a Tycoon game, or a Wargame...

All this because a game has to be fun, and the fun of the game comes mainly from being challenged... but challenged against what? some of our qualities, some of our skills. We choose the games that interest us based on who we are and what we think are our qualities.

The problem of Oblvion, is that for saling purpose, it looks to have removed most role playing challenge, to avoid hurting players who don't have the required qualities to face them, while adding challenges for those players... but which RPGamers do not necessarilly like.

So, from a RPG point of view, there is a big risk that Oblivion will not be such a game of interest.

I will not say because I'm too intelligent for it (though a big part of my critics come from a presupposed lack of intellectual challenge), but simply because the game emphasize on a "fun" that is not mine.

But asking people the difference between European or African swallows is not a universal criteria of intelligence and RPGness.

 

[Levski 1912]

But asking people the difference between European or African swallows is not a universal criteria of intelligence and RPGness.

We have found a witch! May we burn her?

 

[kingcomrade]

Yeah, because this place really needs Monty Python quotes.

 

[Saint_Proverbius]

If I was cleverer, or less lazy, I'd mod the guild in myself (maybe an offshoot of one of the nine divines so as not to impact the main storyline). In fact, what would be nice is if a group of modders could get it together since the mod would be huge.

I think the problem is that mod kits have become a crutch for developers. They include them not because it gives users a way to create their own cool stuff within the confines of the world presented in the game, but more because they can leave a bunch of stuff out and rely on the pre-existing fan base to include that for them. There's also expansion packs, which allow the developers of a game to leave out a good chunk of stuff and just include it later on FOR MORE MONEY!

Then again, it doesn't make a bit of sense to me why the Nine Divines guild isn't in Oblivion considering the story. In fact, I'm surprised the Nine Divines isn't in the game as a mostly mandatory thing you need to join. It'd be like making a game about the Anti-Christ and demonic possession and not including the Catholic church.

 

[Data4]

But asking people the difference between European or African swallows is not a universal criteria of intelligence and RPGness.

You missed the point entirely, and maybe it's because I wasn't clear. Fair enough. In my own personal experience, I've found that most anyone who knows that quote paid more than a passing glance at Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail without dismissing it as "stupid". Sure, there are smart people out there that hate Monty Python, but lacking an off-kilter sense of humor means I wouldn't want to associate with them anyway. See? Not exactly scientific, but the anecdotal evidence has worked for me flawlessly.

-D4

 

[Dreagon]

I've flittered through these forums in passing a bit over the last few months, but after reading a rash of Oblivion/Bethesda related bashing (ironically, conducted principle by Fallout fans) I have to jump into the fray.


snip


Why do I care, you ask? Well, #1) the success of Oblivion means the success for future titles by Bethesda *and* other developers looking for publishers to take a risk on something expansive (which means expensive). #2) Where is the harm in letting a game that genuinely looks visually astounding, that seems to be trying new things AND comes from a decent pedigree of past history/lore have a bone or two?

.

conversely, the success of Oblivion would be rewarding Bethesda for dumbing down their product and making an inferior addition to the elder scrolls series, and therefore encouraging them do dumb it down even further. There is the harm, right there. It may very well be in the interests of true RPG enthusiasts for Oblivion to fail, and let Bethesda know they are better off returning to the formulas of Daggerfall, and to a lesser extent Morrowind.

 

[MarkQuinn]

Can you direct us to any example where silent acceptance has ever helped anyone change things in their favour? Or for that matter, any examples where unquestioned affirmation in response to all questions has improved anything?

Oh, how perfectly gallant. And all the while I mistook it for so much bitter complaining and pissing in the wind.

MQ

 

[Vault Dweller]

Can you direct us to any example where silent acceptance has ever helped anyone change things in their favour? Or for that matter, any examples where unquestioned affirmation in response to all questions has improved anything?

Oh, how perfectly gallant. And all the while I mistook it for so much bitter complaining and pissing in the wind.

MQ

That's what Chuck Cuevas said.

 

[Drakron]

Yes ... its better we keep silent.

Heck it would work wonders when Hitler troops marched into Poland!

 

[LCJr.]

The answer is quite simple they're all bored. No good cRPG's in awhile and nothing promising looming on the horizon.

 

[Tintin]

RPG Codex is Poland and Bethesda are the Nazis.

It all makes sense.

 

[Shagnak]

I've always just considered dungeon-crawlers to be a sub-genre of RPGs. They were inspired by proper RPGs, after all.

Most RPGs (and I assume you mean cRPGs rather than PnP stuff) way back when were dungeon crawlers by today's definition. "Proper" roleplaying shiz (and by that I'm guessing you mean stuff beyond stats, character progression, and killing stuff to level up etc) didn't get included all that often until later.

Therefore, though I would also classify dungeon crawlers as a sub-genre of RPG these days, there is no way that they were inspired by "proper" RPGs given that they predate "proper" RPGs as the average codex elitist defines them today.


[dons asbestos cloak]
BTW, I'll always call early Ultima, Wizardry, etc etc RPGs despite the fact that they are low on dialogue, "meaningful choices", and all that other magic that makes Fallout or whatever supposedly more RPGish than other games. In th early days of the genre the "RPG" part of "cRPG" seemed to have little to do with the "roleplaying" content, and more to do with being similar to the mechanics and record-keeping of PnP RPGs (i.e. stats, char dev, etc).

I think someone (Sarvis?) said, perhaps jokingly, that RPGs have little to do with "roleplaying" (or something very similar). If he was meaning "roleplaying" in terms of "acting out a role", and the "meaningful choices", non-linearity, dialogue, etc, that would support a good implementation of this, well, back in the day that was perfectly correct. The definition of your role was only really provided by stats and so on.

And I don't see any reason to redefine the term and boot all those old skool RPGs out of RPG-land now, either.
And I think when people label Black Isle* games (or whatever) as adventure games with stats, merely because they are reasonably linear, are being total elitist douche-bags. They are RPGs.

Okay, I'll stop rambling now. Coffee time.

[*Disclaimer: I'm not a BI fan.]

Edit:
Which means that I guess I agree with Saint (I hope he wasn't being sarcastic):

I don't think I'd want to kick the rogue-likes out of the genre just because they lack dialogue choices and decision making beyond how you build around the molds of your character type.

 

[Section8]

Oh, how perfectly gallant. And all the while I mistook it for so much bitter complaining and pissing in the wind.

Did I say it wasn't? I'm just trying to fathom a point of view that says we're better off not aspiring to be the squeaky wheel.

 

[Chefe]

Fuck Oblivion. Play DOA4.

 

[Sycandre]

But asking people the difference between European or African swallows is not a universal criteria of intelligence and RPGness.

We have found a witch! May we burn her?

Believe me, I weight much more than a duck! :wink:

 

[Sycandre]

But asking people the difference between European or African swallows is not a universal criteria of intelligence and RPGness.

You missed the point entirely, and maybe it's because I wasn't clear. Fair enough. In my own personal experience, I've found that most anyone who knows that quote paid more than a passing glance at Monty Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail without dismissing it as "stupid". Sure, there are smart people out there that hate Monty Python, but lacking an off-kilter sense of humor means I wouldn't want to associate with them anyway. See? Not exactly scientific, but the anecdotal evidence has worked for me flawlessly.

-D4

I see your point, but I just wanted to say that Monthy python, and especially in the original edition is not necessarilly in the corpus of references of all role players, all accross the world. I watched the holy grail again and again and again, for it is one of the best adaptation of round table tales! But I only discovered it, and especially in english, more than 10 years after starting RPG.
So a RPG gamer may recognize such a quote, but only if he happened to see the movie!

I may quote french references, that are meaningfull to french role players, but you'll completely miss the point. Not cause you're not a real role players, but because you probably never accessed those french humoristic references.

:D

 

[Hamanu]

Failry in-depth what? What Oblivion features deserve such a title? Graphics? Soil erosion? Virtual forests?

Okay, I'm going to ask this once and once only. Not seeking to perpetuate any flame wars, I'm genuinely curious. By what fucked up alchemical process did the soul-erosion algortihms and forests become a bad thing? Last time I checked the process had basically automated the production of the entire damn landscape saving them hundreds if not thousands of hours over the way they did it in Morrowind. Time that they can spend on other, more useful things. Could you imagine doing daggerfall by hand? No fucking way. Oblivion may be no where near daggerfall, but it's a step in the right direction.

 

[Vault Dweller]

By what fucked up alchemical process did the soul-erosion algortihms and forests become a bad thing?

Did anyone ever say that? My quote above implies that the only in-depth features, that also happen to be nearly worthless in an RPG, are soil erosion and the forests. The rest appears to be mediocre at best.