Spoony's PnP Tales

[ManjuShri]

Haven't watched his Counter Monkey in a long time, from what video did they start picking up again?

 

[m_s0]

The last four are pretty watchable. The set itself isn't bad, actually. Thankfully, he did not go overboard with it.

 

[Xathrodox86]

The set is good and it gives a nice feeling to his vids. I loved the story of the bear and the druid. Dude's right when he says it's not advisable to split parties. My players always get fucked, when they try to do that and I'm not even a killer GM... well at least not how I used to be.

 

[Caim]

On how to deal with demigod players of your own creation.

 

[m_s0]

So, to summarize: you drop a magic rock on the universe, and if you're not good at coming up with convoluted backstory there's a module you can use.

 

[Caim]

Yeah, that's pretty much it.

It's like if Die Vecna Die! had a bad end to it.

 

[Xathrodox86]

On how to deal with demigod players of your own creation.

I used to drown mine in bodies. Literally. Then made some changes to rules, and next batch of PC's were forced to use their brains instead of their uberskills... which is how any low fantasy RPG should be run.

 

[MicoSelva]

That last story was finally rather well-told (IMO), Spoony is definitely showing signs of recovery. We shall see if he is able to keep this up, both in quality and schedule. However, I am hoping for some more content variety. As much as I like Counter Monkey, it works better as an addition to stuff like reviews etc., as it does not have enough 'meat' to be the main course.

 

[Jasede]

I doubt you'll see more reviews; they actually require effort.

 

[Caim]

Plus, Spoony's frequently streaming now, which takes time away from his video making business as well.

 

[Xathrodox86]

Which isn't bad in itself. I really liked his L.A. Noire and Horror games vids. I think he is changing his modus operandi, if I may use such term, but at least he's doing SOMETHING. That's a plus.

 

[Caim]

Apocalypse Stone, part 2.

 

[m_s0]

Sorry for self-quote, but ironically, today, rewatching this old video revealed that Spoony doesn't know how to pronounce "Elminster".

His pronunciation reminds me of:

Spoiler

 

[Xathrodox86]

His pronunciation reminds me of:

Spoiler

 

[Rahdulan]

New video.



And he's largely spot on. Everyone is some kind of munchkin or min-maxer these days in their pursuit of the most optimal character builds evar. You ain't really been alive until you played with essentially random rolled AD&D characters just a notch above commoners who still prove they have what it takes to dungeon delve. Don't let being mother nature's cruel joke bad rolls keep you down.

 

[Caim]

He does admit that the whole rolling stats thing works better in AD&D, mainly because the later editions (especially 3e/Pathfinder) are offering far more choice, which clashes with the random elements of rolling your stats, HP per level and starting cash. And I don't get the whole "with point buy all characters are the same: all thieves are the same, all wizards are the same yadda yadda yadda..." thing. It's very unlikely that this stuff happens, even with a powerful array (18 16 14 12 10 8, no going below 8 or above 18) that all players use.

But my biggest issue is that he says that without the random element of either rolling your stats or that one book he pulled out players are not able to make interesting or flawed characters. You don't need dice for that: you just need to git gud at character creation.

 

[Neanderthal]

You do see a lot more characters just relying on their abilities rather than smart play nowadays though, in fact it takes some bloody encouragement to get em thinking rather than just spamming their go to tactics. Old days wi weak characters you had to bloody play smart, or you got torn a new one.

 

[Lhynn]

You do see a lot more characters just relying on their abilities rather than smart play nowadays though, in fact it takes some bloody encouragement to get em thinking rather than just spamming their go to tactics. Old days wi weak characters you had to bloody play smart, or you got torn a new one.

This, players with fewer resources are forced to get smart or get dead. This is what i try to get aross in every one of my games. The most successful characters are often the ones that play the game thinking about whats happening in it, not blinded by their own character sheet.
Plus after playing crap characters playing really good ones feels completely different, you see a lot of shit you would have missed otherwise.

 

[Delterius]

And I don't get the whole "with point buy all characters are the same: all thieves are the same, all wizards are the same yadda yadda yadda..." thing. It's very unlikely that this stuff happens, even with a powerful array (18 16 14 12 10 8, no going below 8 or above 18) that all players use.

You should consider that he's talking about not needing stats to play a character effectively. He's talking about playing a thief with high wisdom or a fighter with high intelligence due to the personality of these characters, not because of anything mechanical. You can't justify something like that in point buy, nor are you going to. With point buy people are just going to be drawn to what is logical, to the samey optimal builds for each respective class. The idea is that just rolling with the suboptimal circumstances can lead to some very interesting storytelling.

 

[Caim]

This, players with fewer resources are forced to get smart or get dead. This is what i try to get aross in every one of my games. The most successful characters are often the ones that play the game thinking about whats happening in it, not blinded by their own character sheet.
Plus after playing crap characters playing really good ones feels completely different, you see a lot of shit you would have missed otherwise.

Sure, if you got less tools you're going to see more uses for what you have, but I think it's rather condescending to claim that this is the only way you can make players think about how to play intelligently and think outside of the box.

You should consider that he's talking about not needing stats to play a character effectively. He's talking about playing a thief with high wisdom or a fighter with high intelligence due to the personality of these characters, not because of anything mechanical. You can't justify something like that in point buy, nor are you going to. With point buy people are just going to be drawn to what is logical, to the samey optimal builds for each respective class. The idea is that just rolling with the suboptimal circumstances can lead to some very interesting storytelling.

Hrm, fair enough. Though I still do not think that your stats can or should limit what you can roleplay.

 

[Lhynn]

Sure, if you got less tools you're going to see more uses for what you have, but I think it's rather condescending to claim that this is the only way you can make players think about how to play intelligently and think outside of the box.

Its certainly the easiest, least forced one and most fun.

 

[Neanderthal]

I've got to admit I think he's onto something wi saying that CRPGs have spoiled us. Take your beginning campaign in a CRPG, you're introduced with easy foes like Goblins, a chance to arm yourself, a level to clear out and a good reward at the end of it. This is usually after the tutorial.

Old style PnP campaign the world was there, you met what was out there, so scouting was a fucking must less you get buttraped or annihilated. You could run away if odds were too much, and you tried to research and farm rumours to get whatever edge you could on an adventure, because they were fucking dangerous. Instead of just waltzing up to the front door of the castle, knocking and announcing, "thieving murderhobo calling" before slaughtering every inhabitant, you'd plot an approach. You'd try and find a secret entrance, see if there was anyway to bribe a servant, find a disloyal guard or steal some of the servants costumes. Here your Thief player would be a vital character and really earn his pay and place in the party.

You see a barracks full of guards, sleeping, gambling, drilling, eating and whatever, in a CRPG you stride in and earn XP and loot to sell, in PnP you avoid like the plague and maybe figure out some way to distract or disable some of them. Sleeping draught in stew, start a fire elsewhere in castle, etc. The castle you're stealthing through remains largely unexplored, you have to find your objective and achieve it rather than clearing all the levels, hoovering up every scrap of loot and XP you can get. Areas are not completed and then thrown away, they remain viable and interesting, with points worth coming back to investigate later, rather than being accessible to your level and then abandoned like in a CRPG.

Seems to me that the sensibilities of CRPGs are spilling over into PnP, and I don't think that's a good thing, because we're losing a lot of depth, danger, gameplay and smart methods of playing to the usual method of CRPGs which are basically now all ARPGs. In trying to make games accessible and viable for all players they've ripped out any sense of danger while trawling through the wilderness, because all your foes will be scaled to your level. They've made areas boring and one dimensional, there to be cleared in one go and then abandoned. And they've made players who think trying to gain an edge, scouting, thinking, and researching opponents and areas are boring filler that should be abandoned when they can just stroll in and slaughter everything as they wish.

What do we get now, alternate combat and conversation, try and introduce anything else and you're accused of not concentrating on the core features. Fuck me Gygax and Arneson were playing more complicated shit than that shortly after adapting roleplaying games from Chainmail.

 

[Xathrodox86]

This, players with fewer resources are forced to get smart or get dead. This is what i try to get aross in every one of my games. The most successful characters are often the ones that play the game thinking about whats happening in it, not blinded by their own character sheet.
Plus after playing crap characters playing really good ones feels completely different, you see a lot of shit you would have missed otherwise.

That's true. When players start thinking with their gear and/or skills and traits, instead of their heads then something is going very, very wrong.

 

[Caim]

Sure, we'd all love to see incredibly complex planning in our CRPGs involving someone dressing up as a cheese merchant, the rogue sneaking in through the castle's toilet shaft, the druid sneaking around as a cat looking to start strategic fires and the Wizard creating illusions in that one house that everyone says houses a vampire. The problem is, having complete and true freedom like that is near impossible to do in a CRPG because there are just too many variables. I mean, in a P&P game you could buy regular weapons, hide your powerful ones inside of the Shardmind and hand your cheap stuff over when you're frisked at the castle so you can confront the king with evidence that his vizer is up to no good. But who'd think about programming that kind of stuff in a CRPG?

That's true. When players start thinking with their gear and/or skills and traits, instead of their heads then something is going very, very wrong.

Yep. Here's a little test, see how you people would handle this situation:

You got a party of six: Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric, Ranger and Bard. You've managed to knock out an evil Druid whom you were hired to capture and hand over to the authorities for a trial. The thing is, the moment he wakes up he's gonna transform into something and run away, so just tying him up isn't going to work. And that's discounting his Druish magic. How do you handle this situation without killing the Druid?

 

[HotSnack]

Yep. Here's a little test, see how you people would handle this situation:

You got a party of six: Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Cleric, Ranger and Bard. You've managed to knock out an evil Druid whom you were hired to capture and hand over to the authorities for a trial. The thing is, the moment he wakes up he's gonna transform into something and run away, so just tying him up isn't going to work. And that's discounting his Druish magic. How do you handle this situation without killing the Druid?

I'd dress him up in the fighter's metal armour before tying him up. I'm assuming the reason why druid's can't wear metal is because it inhibit's their nature powers. Though I can't find a definitive answer on that one...