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Gold Box SSI's Gold Box Series Thread
- Thread starter Saxon1974
- Start date
kek
JavelinRL
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2015
- Messages
- 35
janior, I'm on Linux so I guess GBC won't do the trick for me. Also I guess it would help a bit but not very much - more specifically on the memorizing issue but not on the broader sense. I know I can't expect any tool to overhaul the UI for me but hopefully someone else found a tricky way to get through the games faster as-is. Maybe some item combo or a trick like that that people who have played the game a lot would know but a noobie like me wouldn't.
Thank you for the reply though! I had checked GBC before but it could be the answer someone else would be looking for!
Thank you for the reply though! I had checked GBC before but it could be the answer someone else would be looking for!
ProphetSword
Arcane
The Gold-Box games aren't that hard. You can usually beat one in about a week of playtime...sometimes less.
GarfunkeL
Racism Expert
Dark Sun isn't part of Gold Box. Buck Rogers is. The two Dark Sun games and Menzoberranzan form the "black box" games where SSI tried to re-invent the magic of Gold Box games but failed and it was kinda the end of D&D games until Baldur's Gate.
Anyway, while I sympathize with your problem, there isn't any shortcuts. You either have the time to put into them or you don't. If you find ranged attacks too cumbersome, stop using bows. Spellcasters are an absolute necessity though, as this is 1st edition D&D.
kek
JavelinRL
- Joined
- Nov 9, 2015
- Messages
- 35
I think the later games have better UI, at least when it comes to resting and such so I guess I'll try these. I'm pretty sure there must be something else, a different play style that can be achieved though - there usually is for these complex open-world games. Here's to hoping!
Thank you for the reply!
Thank you for the reply!
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ProphetSword
Arcane
Perhaps the term he was looking for is non-linear?
Ruhfuss
Savant
Recently finished CoK and DKK again. Currently in DQK at the start of the Tower of Flame.
I noticed some less obvious things are handled differentely when compared to the FR games, like fighter types seem to have a different THAC0 progression or the way magical armor works.
CoK was pretty much like memory served, if maybe a bit more bland.
DKK felt very much unpolished, with lots of small bugs/exploits, spelling errors and whatnot. I liked the small(er) side quests, as an opportunity to quickly get some nice loot. Without those side quests, DKK would have been the shortest Gold Box game of all time. It might even be with. The bonus dungeon (by itself it's cool, because you know, BONUS) is a complete joke when compared to the horror that was Dave's Challenge in PoD. In DKK, it's more of an easy XP grindfest, especially for PCs that are XXX/Thief. I took DKK as more of a stepping stone to DQK. By itself, I wouldn't rate it very highly.
DQK, I had to force me more than once to go on. Like memory served, I see a pattern here. I partly blame the implementation. I don't like the Amiga interface, which Micromagic had seemingly ported to the PC. The good stuff are things like LOAD from rest (finally!), and, erm, well, that's it? By now, I seriously prefer my self made combat icons, am accustomed to hitting MOVE before moving (old habits die hard), altough I'm pretty neutral on both ways to handle that. I like that they (re-)added keyboard shortcuts, but dislike that the cursor navigation got mostly removed. Absolutely HATE that the mouse is now activated by default and can't be deactivated, because it's required for character creation (and only there). Also hate the colour scheme. Grey interface combined with stone dungeons, yikes. In the wood tileset, I can't see that trees because of all that woods. Just a mash of colours. Am I looking down a valid path, or the equivalent of a wall? The area view doesn't help, because distinguishing archways from walls was only implemented in FRUA... DQK's other graphic artworks also strike me as pretty generic and sometimes unfitting.
Gameplay wise, the pre-buffed enemies are more of an annoyance than a challenge, giving that LOAD option a good reason to be there when some random wizard once again got the initiative over a party with ~50% DEX 19 elves (quit and reload nowadays is faster thanks to Dosbox, but I remember hitting CTRL+ALT+DELETE quite often in the days of MS-DOS 6.XX, afterwards directly rebooting into the game via AUOTEXEC.BAT). On the other hand, Power Word Stun and Power Word Kill are now actually usefull spells which in turn make those enemy wizards pushovers IF one got the initiative, and delaying those DBFs (PUN!!!) to round 2 for mopping up the remainder.
I like that most enemies only have non-magical arms and armor for the sake of "realism", although if one hasn't imported PCs from DKK or stripped the premade PCs, item wise the player will feel underpowered compared to other Gold Box titles.
Considering the last two points, DQK and PoD are pretty much counter matching. In PoD, enemy NPCs mostly are cram-full of expensive equipment, but on a (wizardly) power level that lets the PCs suffer only attrition damage most of the time. In DQK, enemy wizard's instead are almost naked, but DBF is bread-and-butter-spellcasting.
Oh my, wall of text. Saving the DL multiclassing vs. FR dualclassing for later.
I noticed some less obvious things are handled differentely when compared to the FR games, like fighter types seem to have a different THAC0 progression or the way magical armor works.
CoK was pretty much like memory served, if maybe a bit more bland.
DKK felt very much unpolished, with lots of small bugs/exploits, spelling errors and whatnot. I liked the small(er) side quests, as an opportunity to quickly get some nice loot. Without those side quests, DKK would have been the shortest Gold Box game of all time. It might even be with. The bonus dungeon (by itself it's cool, because you know, BONUS) is a complete joke when compared to the horror that was Dave's Challenge in PoD. In DKK, it's more of an easy XP grindfest, especially for PCs that are XXX/Thief. I took DKK as more of a stepping stone to DQK. By itself, I wouldn't rate it very highly.
DQK, I had to force me more than once to go on. Like memory served, I see a pattern here. I partly blame the implementation. I don't like the Amiga interface, which Micromagic had seemingly ported to the PC. The good stuff are things like LOAD from rest (finally!), and, erm, well, that's it? By now, I seriously prefer my self made combat icons, am accustomed to hitting MOVE before moving (old habits die hard), altough I'm pretty neutral on both ways to handle that. I like that they (re-)added keyboard shortcuts, but dislike that the cursor navigation got mostly removed. Absolutely HATE that the mouse is now activated by default and can't be deactivated, because it's required for character creation (and only there). Also hate the colour scheme. Grey interface combined with stone dungeons, yikes. In the wood tileset, I can't see that trees because of all that woods. Just a mash of colours. Am I looking down a valid path, or the equivalent of a wall? The area view doesn't help, because distinguishing archways from walls was only implemented in FRUA... DQK's other graphic artworks also strike me as pretty generic and sometimes unfitting.
Gameplay wise, the pre-buffed enemies are more of an annoyance than a challenge, giving that LOAD option a good reason to be there when some random wizard once again got the initiative over a party with ~50% DEX 19 elves (quit and reload nowadays is faster thanks to Dosbox, but I remember hitting CTRL+ALT+DELETE quite often in the days of MS-DOS 6.XX, afterwards directly rebooting into the game via AUOTEXEC.BAT). On the other hand, Power Word Stun and Power Word Kill are now actually usefull spells which in turn make those enemy wizards pushovers IF one got the initiative, and delaying those DBFs (PUN!!!) to round 2 for mopping up the remainder.
I like that most enemies only have non-magical arms and armor for the sake of "realism", although if one hasn't imported PCs from DKK or stripped the premade PCs, item wise the player will feel underpowered compared to other Gold Box titles.
Considering the last two points, DQK and PoD are pretty much counter matching. In PoD, enemy NPCs mostly are cram-full of expensive equipment, but on a (wizardly) power level that lets the PCs suffer only attrition damage most of the time. In DQK, enemy wizard's instead are almost naked, but DBF is bread-and-butter-spellcasting.
Oh my, wall of text. Saving the DL multiclassing vs. FR dualclassing for later.
Dorateen
Arcane
I enjoyed the side quests in Death Knights of Krynn immensely, as well as its non-linear structure. Being able to invade Dargaard Keep far too early is a treat. Along with the special sweet spot of mid to teens level adventuring, I personally rank it around third best of the Gold Box games.
Ruhfuss
Savant
The clue book for DQK is quite crappy. I noticed some missing encounters in Blackwater Glade, and just now more of that in the Tower of Flame, including very inaccurate mapping. Why bother mentioning a little trap that includes 4 Dark Wizards in a CLUE book. Good thing I needn't pay for it...
Ruhfuss
Savant
You are correct, I misremembered. This playthough, I wasn't able to get Fire Touch or Stone to Flesh for my White Robe, for example. IMO Stone to Flesh, as a curing spell, would have made more sense than Flesh to Stone, which IS available to White Robes in Kristophan, as is Disintegrate.
Ruhfuss
Savant
And one more for the list of inconsistencies between games. In DKK, the Mace of Disruption instakills Spectres (and maybe Vampires? Damn, I'm unsure already). In DQK, the Mace "merely" does more damage to all kind of undead, although killing (again) a Skeleton Warrior in two attacks is quite nice. But why does it disrupt Fireshadows occasionally, while not even damaging Fire Elementals (rhetorical question, since +2 weapons are needed to damage Fire Elementals, and the Mace of Disruption counts as +1 for anything not undead)?
Ruhfuss
Savant
I can't describe how frustrated I'm ATM with the Abyss part of DQK. The clue book is USELESS; they didn't bother to provide a meaningfull map for an area with a fucking time (or step) limit. On top of that, Raistlin gives useless advise: "We need to go east." after going west for while on a map that wraps around. I failed the time limit after finally finding the Antechamber, and got stuck. Drop in some annoying semi-random encounters, no chance to rest, and you have the epitome of a no fun finale.
Oh, and combined with a clueless/suboptimal saving strategy, chances are good that you have to start over from the beginning. Sorry, but this game sucks.
Oh, and combined with a clueless/suboptimal saving strategy, chances are good that you have to start over from the beginning. Sorry, but this game sucks.
Ruhfuss
Savant
Can't remember that happening to my party. What happend last night, I took off into the wrong direction after freeing Raistlin. His advice to go east came to late. One time, I just got a glimpse at the Dark Queen leaving the Abyss and a remark that translated into "Game Over!"; another time, her Antechamber was just empty. I guess she had already left.
22 spaces vertically; my guess is 22x22. No random encounters, but repeatable fixed ones.
Just did the Abyss part again and finished the game, for the sake of finishing it. I'm kind of glad that I don't have to bother with slowly exploding Sivaks anymore, although some of the chain reactions in the final battles were somewhat satisfactory, when an Enchanted Sivak goes down right in the middle of a horde of injured dragons. Enchanted Auraks (easily avoidable explosion) were almost no threat over Kapaks or Baaz, but Bozaks (Fire Shield + MR) and Sivaks (Meteor Swarm) made my jawbones hurt.
All things considered, DQK is not my cup of tea. Too much of a drag, no real climax, nothing much to care about. It feels like for every incline(tm) in one area, there is a decline(tm) in another.
My main motivation for playing the Krynn series is usually for not wanting to play an all human party (again) and have some working multi class PCs. Weren't it for a certain quest in CoK, there was little reason to not go with an all elf party in the Krynn games from a power gamer perspective.
But nothings beats a properly planned human warrior/caster dual class build for high level FR Gold Box.
Personally, from a combatfag POV, I think DQK was the highlight of the Gold Box series.
Except Elves can't be ressurrected, so you'll be forced to reload if any of your party dies.
Except Elves can't be ressurrected, so you'll be forced to reload if any of your party dies.
Ruhfuss
Savant
I think I can see your point and partially felt and still feel the same way. Maybe my party just had to take a DBF too much from Random-Dark-Wizard-Guy-and-Buddies with initiative of Infinity+1. Power Word Killing those bastards was immensely satisfactory.
Power Word Reload is taken into account, for sure. No other way to get magic-user spell level 10+, which includes Player's Wish and Player's Foresight.
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Ruhfuss
Savant
By the way, my Krynn party was:
1) Female Human Knight of the Rose
2) Female Silvanesti Elf Kiri-Jolith Cleric/Ranger (*)
3) Male Mountain Dwarf Fighter
4) Male Qualinesti Elf Red Mage/Thief (**)
5) Female Human White Mage
6) Male Qualinesti Elf Red Mage/Thief
(*) was male in CoK and DKK for STR 18+; hex-edited to female due to lack of fitting (non-fugly) combat icon, including lowering STR to 16 (char had Gauntlets of Ogre Power (GoOP) anyways...)
(**) was a female Kender Kiri-Jolith Cleric/Thief in CoK and DKK, which became next to useless in DQK combat; was replaced by a copy of char #6 in mid campaign (not planned to do so when I started out)
I always max-modifiy my chars, but on the other hand intentionally gimping them by having a balanced male/female party, including female warriors. Someone needs to put on those GoOPs. Since the armory in Cerberus (DKK) can be looted infinitely (one of the many bugs in DKK), even #5 had STR 18(00), until the start of DQK, where (single class) magic-users aren't allowed to wear GoOP.
Explanation of party composition:
1) It's a Krynn game. CoK wants you to have a Knight. Female because I wanted to use a certain combat icon in DQK (seriously!). I think the Knight is a subpar class, but WTF. Made the mistake of changing from Sword to Rose too early. Optimally IMHO one would change from Sword to Rose after gaining enough XP to achieve (stay at) Rose level 18, or maybe Rose level 13 for the 2/1 attacks.
2) THAC0 bonus + elf bonus when wielding bows and one handed swords is usefull in lower levels to offset the lower STR. Detect Magic as bonus spell is very handy. Sometimes whished for Majere as deity to have better turning power. (In FR games I usually only use turn undead if I know that the (single active class) cleric is powerful enough to destroy, not just to turn.)
3) Wanted a dwarf. Wanted CON 19. Wanted no Paladin. Got a fast leveling meat grinder with saving throws (if implemented correctly, don't know) comparable or even better than a human paladin. Games always made me rage when dwarf got poisoned.
4.1) Kender: Can use hoopaks, bonus THAC0 from deity, good secondary cleric until the knight takes over in DKK. Loses access to level 6 cleric spells due to correct implementation of wisdom requirements for spell levels in DQK. Hoopak ranged damage sucks starting in DKK, offset by backstab potential in melee.
4.2) Red Robe/Thief: MORE DAKKA. There's AFAIK only one magical short bow in the whole series, so being a clone of #6 including equipment was just fine for me.
5) White Robes need more XP per level in DQK compared to Red Robes, so this one's a single class draconian raper. Human in the case that I'm too lazy to use Power Word Reload if she got killed. Also don't like Cleric/Magic-User combo due to unwieldy spell list.
6) Can use short bows (better range compared to darts), one handed swords and leather armor from the beginning, but no shields (+1 for FR). Elf THAC0 bonus. No Fighter/Thief in party means fewer backstabs, so a second Magic-user/Thief gives a nice combination of both additional backstabbing potential and magical firepower. Also Red Robe/Thieves level reasonable fast for a multi class and have slightly better hit point potential, especially if thief and mage levels can be trained independently after name level.
1) Female Human Knight of the Rose
2) Female Silvanesti Elf Kiri-Jolith Cleric/Ranger (*)
3) Male Mountain Dwarf Fighter
4) Male Qualinesti Elf Red Mage/Thief (**)
5) Female Human White Mage
6) Male Qualinesti Elf Red Mage/Thief
(*) was male in CoK and DKK for STR 18+; hex-edited to female due to lack of fitting (non-fugly) combat icon, including lowering STR to 16 (char had Gauntlets of Ogre Power (GoOP) anyways...)
(**) was a female Kender Kiri-Jolith Cleric/Thief in CoK and DKK, which became next to useless in DQK combat; was replaced by a copy of char #6 in mid campaign (not planned to do so when I started out)
I always max-modifiy my chars, but on the other hand intentionally gimping them by having a balanced male/female party, including female warriors. Someone needs to put on those GoOPs. Since the armory in Cerberus (DKK) can be looted infinitely (one of the many bugs in DKK), even #5 had STR 18(00), until the start of DQK, where (single class) magic-users aren't allowed to wear GoOP.
Explanation of party composition:
1) It's a Krynn game. CoK wants you to have a Knight. Female because I wanted to use a certain combat icon in DQK (seriously!). I think the Knight is a subpar class, but WTF. Made the mistake of changing from Sword to Rose too early. Optimally IMHO one would change from Sword to Rose after gaining enough XP to achieve (stay at) Rose level 18, or maybe Rose level 13 for the 2/1 attacks.
2) THAC0 bonus + elf bonus when wielding bows and one handed swords is usefull in lower levels to offset the lower STR. Detect Magic as bonus spell is very handy. Sometimes whished for Majere as deity to have better turning power. (In FR games I usually only use turn undead if I know that the (single active class) cleric is powerful enough to destroy, not just to turn.)
3) Wanted a dwarf. Wanted CON 19. Wanted no Paladin. Got a fast leveling meat grinder with saving throws (if implemented correctly, don't know) comparable or even better than a human paladin. Games always made me rage when dwarf got poisoned.
4.1) Kender: Can use hoopaks, bonus THAC0 from deity, good secondary cleric until the knight takes over in DKK. Loses access to level 6 cleric spells due to correct implementation of wisdom requirements for spell levels in DQK. Hoopak ranged damage sucks starting in DKK, offset by backstab potential in melee.
4.2) Red Robe/Thief: MORE DAKKA. There's AFAIK only one magical short bow in the whole series, so being a clone of #6 including equipment was just fine for me.
5) White Robes need more XP per level in DQK compared to Red Robes, so this one's a single class draconian raper. Human in the case that I'm too lazy to use Power Word Reload if she got killed. Also don't like Cleric/Magic-User combo due to unwieldy spell list.
6) Can use short bows (better range compared to darts), one handed swords and leather armor from the beginning, but no shields (+1 for FR). Elf THAC0 bonus. No Fighter/Thief in party means fewer backstabs, so a second Magic-user/Thief gives a nice combination of both additional backstabbing potential and magical firepower. Also Red Robe/Thieves level reasonable fast for a multi class and have slightly better hit point potential, especially if thief and mage levels can be trained independently after name level.
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Ruhfuss
Savant
Started a new game: Gateway to the Savage Frontier.
Intending to do Gateway -> Curse -> Secret -> Pools (probably to be disrupted by upcoming next Gold Box burnout).
Party of 3 Human Paladins and 3 Human Rangers, planning to dual class during SSB. No clue if I'll be able to have a chance at beating Curse. Envisioned final party:
Paladin -> Cleric
Ranger -> Thief
Paladin -> Mage
Ranger -> Mage
Paladin -> Mage
Ranger -> Mage
Eat that, PoD!
Realized right at the beginning of GSF that FIX won't utilize the Paladin's Lay on Hands ability. Also having no way to cast Detect Magic sucks. Also don't want to go to the barber shop after every rest. (Don't even know if GSF has one available.) So after taking a look at Krevish, sent him to the training hall to do weight training with the hex editor and dual classed him to Cleric after his STR increased to 15. (His default WIS is 18, but default STR 14 prevents dual classing).
Currently enjoying auto aiming the nearest opponent in GSF's combat, but still need some time to get reacquainted with hit-move-before-moving after playing DQK.
Let's see how things will turn out.
Intending to do Gateway -> Curse -> Secret -> Pools (probably to be disrupted by upcoming next Gold Box burnout).
Party of 3 Human Paladins and 3 Human Rangers, planning to dual class during SSB. No clue if I'll be able to have a chance at beating Curse. Envisioned final party:
Paladin -> Cleric
Ranger -> Thief
Paladin -> Mage
Ranger -> Mage
Paladin -> Mage
Ranger -> Mage
Eat that, PoD!
Realized right at the beginning of GSF that FIX won't utilize the Paladin's Lay on Hands ability. Also having no way to cast Detect Magic sucks. Also don't want to go to the barber shop after every rest. (Don't even know if GSF has one available.) So after taking a look at Krevish, sent him to the training hall to do weight training with the hex editor and dual classed him to Cleric after his STR increased to 15. (His default WIS is 18, but default STR 14 prevents dual classing).
Currently enjoying auto aiming the nearest opponent in GSF's combat, but still need some time to get reacquainted with hit-move-before-moving after playing DQK.
Let's see how things will turn out.
Why the Paladin levels?
Ruhfuss
Savant
Cleric substitution, Paladin "utilityness", disability to have more than 3 Rangers in the party. Did a SSB run some time ago, with 6 freshly created Paladins dual-classed right away; worked out pretty well, altough I was stuck at 3/2 attacks.
I didn't plan the Krevish as Cleric thing, so Lay on Hands was my only means of non-natural healing.
The Ranger/Thief is a bit of a gimmick; I wanted a Warrior-Caster-Thief.
I didn't plan the Krevish as Cleric thing, so Lay on Hands was my only means of non-natural healing.
The Ranger/Thief is a bit of a gimmick; I wanted a Warrior-Caster-Thief.
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