Gold Box SSI's Gold Box Series Thread

[Ruhfuss]

As for cheated stats to be higher than racial maximums, well, you can play all single class and it won't matter. Might as well make them all Kenders and just cheat in mage levels while you are at it.

I seriously hope that you never need to see a doctor who shares the same mindset of yours, or you'll end up with an amputated leg when you just had pulled a muscle.

Not sure why people tend to think that Kenders suck in the Krynn games. Their taunt ability has a pretty high success rate, and you can use some tactics to set your party up to swipe opponents as they recklessly rush toward the Kender in their enraged state. Or do things like set up a line of Stinking Cloud spells and let the enemy rush through it and get themselves stuck. It's also a great way to get the enemy spellcasters to focus their spells on one character instead of the whole party (especially when they're casting Hold Person).

Agree. The suckyness only applies to DQK, due to high level scaling.

 

[Cael]

As for cheated stats to be higher than racial maximums, well, you can play all single class and it won't matter. Might as well make them all Kenders and just cheat in mage levels while you are at it.

I seriously hope that you never need to see a doctor who shares the same mindset of yours, or you'll end up with an amputated leg when you just had pulled a muscle.

"I want to play a Kender, but I don't like the restrictions, so I will cheat them away. How dare you judge me!!!!"

 

[Cael]

Not sure why people tend to think that Kenders suck in the Krynn games. Their taunt ability has a pretty high success rate, and you can use some tactics to set your party up to swipe opponents as they recklessly rush toward the Kender in their enraged state. Or do things like set up a line of Stinking Cloud spells and let the enemy rush through it and get themselves stuck. It's also a great way to get the enemy spellcasters to focus their spells on one character instead of the whole party (especially when they're casting Hold Person).

Just not effective. I'd rather just sling a Fireball or Magic Missile and stop him casting that way.

 

[Ruhfuss]

"I want to play a Kender, but I don't like the restrictions, so I will cheat them away. How dare you judge me!!!!"

There, you got it!

 

[Cael]

"I want to play a Kender, but I don't like the restrictions, so I will cheat them away. How dare you judge me!!!!"

There, you got it!

Yes. I got you were a munchkin dramafag. However, I hope my posts were useful to people who actually play by the rules and not have a Red Robed kender running around.

 

[Ruhfuss]

Yes. I got you were a munchkin dramafag. However, I hope my posts were useful to people who actually play by the rules and not have a Red Robed kender running around.

Sorry for the attitude. And too bad that my party is complete, else I'd offer you a slot.

 

[Cael]

Yes. I got you were a munchkin dramafag. However, I hope my posts were useful to people who actually play by the rules and not have a Red Robed kender running around.

Sorry for the attitude. And too bad that my party is complete, else I'd offer you a slot.

Not a bad effort. But single-class was where you went wrong.

 

[Joonas]

Haven't tried any of those weird save file imports myself but here's a table of character file offsets compared between the games:
http://gbc.zorbus.net/savefiles_compared.txt

 

[Incendax]

actually play by the rules and not have a Red Robed kender running around.

Sounds like Sindri Suncatcher.

 

[Cael]

actually play by the rules and not have a Red Robed kender running around.

Sounds like Sindri Suncatcher.

Ugh! Trust WotC to go there. As bad as EA and Disney put together with pure, condensed biowaste and cuckdog cuckblend added in.

 

[ProphetSword]

Not sure why people tend to think that Kenders suck in the Krynn games. Their taunt ability has a pretty high success rate, and you can use some tactics to set your party up to swipe opponents as they recklessly rush toward the Kender in their enraged state. Or do things like set up a line of Stinking Cloud spells and let the enemy rush through it and get themselves stuck. It's also a great way to get the enemy spellcasters to focus their spells on one character instead of the whole party (especially when they're casting Hold Person).

Just not effective. I'd rather just sling a Fireball or Magic Missile and stop him casting that way.

Your personal preference doesn’t invalidate my point. There are multiple ways to play these games, and all of them are equally valid.

 

[Cael]

Not sure why people tend to think that Kenders suck in the Krynn games. Their taunt ability has a pretty high success rate, and you can use some tactics to set your party up to swipe opponents as they recklessly rush toward the Kender in their enraged state. Or do things like set up a line of Stinking Cloud spells and let the enemy rush through it and get themselves stuck. It's also a great way to get the enemy spellcasters to focus their spells on one character instead of the whole party (especially when they're casting Hold Person).

Just not effective. I'd rather just sling a Fireball or Magic Missile and stop him casting that way.

Your personal preference doesn’t invalidate my point. There are multiple ways to play these games, and all of them are equally valid.

That wasn't what you said.

The reasons why kenders suck is that they are horribly gimped in just about every possible endeavour except being thieves. Unfortunately, they are not even the best at it, and to top it off, thieves are only absolutely required in one instance in an optional dungeon in the postgame of one of the games. You are always better off playing other races that has any x/thief multiclass.

Does that make your playthrough less enjoyable? Completely irrelevant. The premise you proposed was why kenders suck, not whether you have a blast playing them.

 

[octavius]

But Kender's don't suck (in COK and DKK, at least) so you are debating on a false premise.

 

[Cael]

But Kender's don't suck (in COK and DKK, at least) so you are debating on a false premise.

Would be nice if you actually try to back up your statement.

 

[octavius]

But Kender's don't suck (in COK and DKK, at least) so you are debating on a false premise.

Would be nice if you actually try to back up your statement.

But I already did.
But for those with limited attention span:

Taunt ability.
Immune to Fear.
Only a Kender Thief can backstab with a blunt weapon.
Only Kender can do missile attacks while in melee, which can sometimes be useful against enemy spell casters.

Sure, they make mediocre Clerics, but they have no restrictions as Thieves. And only a dumbfuck and/or rest spammer would underestimate the power of a good Backstab.

 

[ProphetSword]

Just not effective. I'd rather just sling a Fireball or Magic Missile and stop him casting that way.

The reasons why kenders suck is that they are horribly gimped in just about every possible endeavour except being thieves. Unfortunately, they are not even the best at it, and to top it off, thieves are only absolutely required in one instance in an optional dungeon in the postgame of one of the games. You are always better off playing other races that has any x/thief multiclass.

Does that make your playthrough less enjoyable? Completely irrelevant. The premise you proposed was why kenders suck, not whether you have a blast playing them.

Two points here:

1) Whether I have a blast playing them or not is relevant, as games are meant to be enjoyed. Otherwise, why bother?

2) It's clear you think having an optimized party is about damage output, which it isn't. If I have, for example, a Kender Cleric/Mage, you would likely find that sub-optimal. That's merely an opinion and not fact, though, since there are multiple ways a character can contribute to victory besides dealing damage. A Kender Cleric/Mage can utilize their taunt ability to enrage enemy spellcasters, cast several healing spells on party members, use Dispel Magic to help characters who have been charmed or held, cast Stinking Cloud to foil the enemy ability to move or to keep spellcasters from casting, use Charm on an enemy to make them a temporary ally, etc. None of this makes that Kender suck, and in fact, may turn the tide of the battle in a much more effective way than dealing damage; because your Fireball may not bring a large enemy down, but my Stinking Cloud might.

This is the same argument I have made all along when people have said you shouldn't play multiclassed demi-humans in these games, to which my answer is that it is complete bullshit. I have beat all of these games with the exact same party (except in POR, which doesn't allow certain classes), and they always include two multiclass characters who do just fine, even in the high level games.

If you want to play the game differently than I do, more power to you. But don't say my way sucks or inform other people that they are wrong when you clearly only seem to think powering through the game is the only option.

 

[Cael]

Just not effective. I'd rather just sling a Fireball or Magic Missile and stop him casting that way.

The reasons why kenders suck is that they are horribly gimped in just about every possible endeavour except being thieves. Unfortunately, they are not even the best at it, and to top it off, thieves are only absolutely required in one instance in an optional dungeon in the postgame of one of the games. You are always better off playing other races that has any x/thief multiclass.

Does that make your playthrough less enjoyable? Completely irrelevant. The premise you proposed was why kenders suck, not whether you have a blast playing them.

Two points here:

1) Whether I have a blast playing them or not is relevant, as games are meant to be enjoyed. Otherwise, why bother?

2) It's clear you think having an optimized party is about damage output, which it isn't. If I have, for example, a Kender Cleric/Mage, you would likely find that sub-optimal. That's merely an opinion and not fact, though, since there are multiple ways a character can contribute to victory besides dealing damage. A Kender Cleric/Mage can utilize their taunt ability to enrage enemy spellcasters, cast several healing spells on party members, use Dispel Magic to help characters who have been charmed or held, cast Stinking Cloud to foil the enemy ability to move or to keep spellcasters from casting, use Charm on an enemy to make them a temporary ally, etc. None of this makes that Kender suck, and in fact, may turn the tide of the battle in a much more effective way than dealing damage; because your Fireball may not bring a large enemy down, but my Stinking Cloud might.

This is the same argument I have made all along when people have said you shouldn't play multiclassed demi-humans in these games, to which my answer is that it is complete bullshit. I have beat all of these games with the exact same party (except in POR, which doesn't allow certain classes), and they always include two multiclass characters who do just fine, even in the high level games.

1. Irrelevant as to whether they suck or not.

2. A max level 12 cleric that requires double the XP to level in the first place is not considered "suck" in your venecular. Right.

You are basically arguing from "I like them so they don't suck". That is bullshit, of course, but you won't be the first to make that mistake. I think we are done here.

 

[Cael]

But Kender's don't suck (in COK and DKK, at least) so you are debating on a false premise.

Would be nice if you actually try to back up your statement.

But I already did.
But for those with limited attention span:

Taunt ability.
Immune to Fear.
Only a Kender Thief can backstab with a blunt weapon.
Only Kender can do missile attacks while in melee, which can sometimes be useful against enemy spell casters.

Sure, they make mediocre Clerics, but they have no restrictions as Thieves. And only a dumbfuck and/or rest spammer would underestime the power of a good Backstab.

Taunt doesn't do as much as you claim it does. A well-placed Stinking Cloud can easily do more, or a Sleep spell or a Hold Person. It is a waste of an action.
Immunity to fear is useful only in one battle in the whole series, and even then, your other characters would have a good chance in withstanding it anyway due to their levels.
Backstabbing with a blunt weapon is irrelevant unless you are talking skeletons, and no skeleton is menacing enough to gimp your whole party over an entire game and a half for.
Missile attacks in melee is irrelevant unless you send your casters into melee combat in the first place. If that is the case, I think playing a kender is the least of your worries.

Instead of a kender cleric/thief, put in a half-elf or Qualinesti mage/thief and there will be a measurable difference in power.

Kenders are simply outclassed by other races, both in stats and in class combinations/level cap, which is the very definition of "suck".

 

[octavius]

Taunt doesn't do as much as you claim it does. A well-placed Stinking Cloud can easily do more, or a Sleep spell or a Hold Person. It is a waste of an action.

It all depends on the situation. Against Draconians magic spells are not very effective, but Taunt is.

Backstabbing with a blunt weapon is irrelevant unless you are talking skeletons, and no skeleton is menacing enough to gimp your whole party over an entire game and a half for.

Backstabbing with a blunt weapon is the most effective tactics against Skeletal Warriors. Only a Kender Thief or a lvl 13+ Fighter or a very high level Mage can take down a Skeletal Warrior in one action.

Missile attacks in melee is irrelevant unless you send your casters into melee combat in the first place.

I'm talking about disrupting enemy spell casting, which can be hard of you character is locked in melee, does not have spells or wands, and the enemy spell caster is out of range for hammers or daggers, which have only a range of 3.
Sure, it's not a common situation, but it happens. Happened quite often in Secret of the Silver Blades with the Black Circle, though. I guess that's where I learnt to value being able to do missile attacks while in melee. And I was wrong about only Kenders being able; the correct is that only Kender have long range.

Instead of a kender cleric/thief, put in a half-elf or Qualinesti mage/thief and there will be a measurable difference in power.

In the two first games a good backstabber and taunter is more valuable than a third mage.

 

[Incendax]

There is always the option to just remove the racial level caps.
It was always one of the silliest things about early D&D.

 

[ProphetSword]

You are basically arguing from "I like them so they don't suck". That is bullshit, of course, but you won't be the first to make that mistake. I think we are done here.

That's not the argument I made at all. But if you want to willfully ignore it and say "we are done here," as if you can dictate that you've won this argument on actual facts and that it's at an end, my response is that you don't have the power here because you are standing on some extremely shaky ground. There are no facts that you can present that conclusively prove that a Kender sucks, and I can just as easily use the reverse argument that says: "You don't like them so you will say they suck."

As I mentioned before, your premise that something sucks seems to be based upon the power level you attribute to them. And as I also previously mentioned, there is more than one way to play these games. If you want to uber-maximize your party and play on Novice to make yourself feel like the big cheese of the universe, that's fine. It's a legitimate option. I prefer a challenge and tactical gameplay, as I derive enjoyment from battles that require me to think and use whatever resources I have available. Steamrolling through battles at maximum efficiency doesn't lead to much fun in my eyes. To each their own.

But, just so you know, you haven't proven a thing, nor are you any more right than I am.

 

[Cael]

It all depends on the situation. Against Draconians magic spells are not very effective, but Taunt is.

Backstabbing with a blunt weapon is the most effective tactics against Skeletal Warriors. Only a Kender Thief or a lvl 13+ Fighter or a very high level Mage can take down a Skeletal Warrior in one action.

I'm talking about disrupting enemy spell casting, which can be hard of you character is locked in melee, does not have spells or wands, and the enemy spell caster is out of range for hammers or daggers, which have only a range of 3.
Sure, it's not a common situation, but it happens. Happened quite often in Secret of the Silver Blades with the Black Circle, though. I guess that's where I learnt to value being able to do missile attacks while in melee. And I was wrong about only Kenders being able; the correct is that only Kender have long range.

In the two first games a good backstabber and taunter is more valuable than a third mage.

Against draconians, you just stab them to death. They are usually a joke. I'd be more worried about casters.

You get the Mace of Disruption, which I can't remember is before or after the skeletal warrior. Suffice to say that I never had a problem with them even without backstab. That is the beauty of 6 fighters in the party. When not facing casters, you can generally just beat things to death while hiding behind massive AC. You only have to resort to spells when dealing with special encounters and casters.

The problem with trying to disrupt casters only happen when you are locked in melee combat and none of your guys can cast spells, and you don't have wands or scrolls. That is a very contrived situation. There is also no reason why you can't take a step back, eating the attack of opportunity, switch to a bow and turn the enemy into pincushion. It smells more like bad planning and bad management than actually showcasing the power of melee archery.

I disagree completely. I play with 5 mages, and they basically end entire combats before they begin. With things like beholders, everyone move away and pincushion them with longbows.

I have played with a kender cleric/thief before. My first party included a ranger/cleric, cleric/mage and a kender cleric/thief. The ranger/cleric turned out to be a dud because the XP requirements for the ranger component meant that it lagged in levels even behind a Knight of the Rose while adding little that a basic fighter did not give. The cleric/thief was a complete waste of time with the 16 Wis max and level 12 max. I ended up with a thief that required double the XP to level while the cleric component gave little advantage in a party of casters. The cleric/mage had marginal utility, but it was still better to split them out for a fighter/cleric and fighter/mage combo.

 

[Cael]

There is always the option to just remove the racial level caps.
It was always one of the silliest things about early D&D.

Is it even possible? I never messed around with modding the GB games. I just played them straight as per the rules.

 

[Cael]

You are basically arguing from "I like them so they don't suck". That is bullshit, of course, but you won't be the first to make that mistake. I think we are done here.

That's not the argument I made at all. But if you want to willfully ignore it and say "we are done here," as if you can dictate that you've won this argument on actual facts and that it's at an end, my response is that you don't have the power here because you are standing on some extremely shaky ground. There are no facts that you can present that conclusively prove that a Kender sucks, and I can just as easily use the reverse argument that says: "You don't like them so you will say they suck."

As I mentioned before, your premise that something sucks seems to be based upon the power level you attribute to them. And as I also previously mentioned, there is more than one way to play these games. If you want to uber-maximize your party and play on Novice to make yourself feel like the big cheese of the universe, that's fine. It's a legitimate option. I prefer a challenge and tactical gameplay, as I derive enjoyment from battles that require me to think and use whatever resources I have available. Steamrolling through battles at maximum efficiency doesn't lead to much fun in my eyes. To each their own.

But, just so you know, you haven't proven a thing, nor are you any more right than I am.

In other words, you deliberately play gimped characters to give yourself a challenge (which is fine; I don't have a problem with that), and that is why you chose a kender. Which proves my point: They suck.

 

[ProphetSword]

You are basically arguing from "I like them so they don't suck". That is bullshit, of course, but you won't be the first to make that mistake. I think we are done here.

That's not the argument I made at all. But if you want to willfully ignore it and say "we are done here," as if you can dictate that you've won this argument on actual facts and that it's at an end, my response is that you don't have the power here because you are standing on some extremely shaky ground. There are no facts that you can present that conclusively prove that a Kender sucks, and I can just as easily use the reverse argument that says: "You don't like them so you will say they suck."

As I mentioned before, your premise that something sucks seems to be based upon the power level you attribute to them. And as I also previously mentioned, there is more than one way to play these games. If you want to uber-maximize your party and play on Novice to make yourself feel like the big cheese of the universe, that's fine. It's a legitimate option. I prefer a challenge and tactical gameplay, as I derive enjoyment from battles that require me to think and use whatever resources I have available. Steamrolling through battles at maximum efficiency doesn't lead to much fun in my eyes. To each their own.

But, just so you know, you haven't proven a thing, nor are you any more right than I am.

In other words, you deliberately play gimped characters to give yourself a challenge (which is fine; I don't have a problem with that), and that is why you chose a kender. Which proves my point: They suck.

No, it doesn’t. I play normal characters, same as a lot of people. I don’t make optimization an issue to simply steamroll through the game.