Gold Box SSI's Gold Box Series Thread

[Cael]

You are basically arguing from "I like them so they don't suck". That is bullshit, of course, but you won't be the first to make that mistake. I think we are done here.

That's not the argument I made at all. But if you want to willfully ignore it and say "we are done here," as if you can dictate that you've won this argument on actual facts and that it's at an end, my response is that you don't have the power here because you are standing on some extremely shaky ground. There are no facts that you can present that conclusively prove that a Kender sucks, and I can just as easily use the reverse argument that says: "You don't like them so you will say they suck."

As I mentioned before, your premise that something sucks seems to be based upon the power level you attribute to them. And as I also previously mentioned, there is more than one way to play these games. If you want to uber-maximize your party and play on Novice to make yourself feel like the big cheese of the universe, that's fine. It's a legitimate option. I prefer a challenge and tactical gameplay, as I derive enjoyment from battles that require me to think and use whatever resources I have available. Steamrolling through battles at maximum efficiency doesn't lead to much fun in my eyes. To each their own.

But, just so you know, you haven't proven a thing, nor are you any more right than I am.

In other words, you deliberately play gimped characters to give yourself a challenge (which is fine; I don't have a problem with that), and that is why you chose a kender. Which proves my point: They suck.

No, it doesn’t. I play normal characters, same as a lot of people. I don’t make optimization an issue to simply steamroll through the game.

Ahhhh, yes. The "normal characters" schtick.

I will leave your admission of defeat as is. There really isn't much more to say.

 

[ProphetSword]

You are basically arguing from "I like them so they don't suck". That is bullshit, of course, but you won't be the first to make that mistake. I think we are done here.

That's not the argument I made at all. But if you want to willfully ignore it and say "we are done here," as if you can dictate that you've won this argument on actual facts and that it's at an end, my response is that you don't have the power here because you are standing on some extremely shaky ground. There are no facts that you can present that conclusively prove that a Kender sucks, and I can just as easily use the reverse argument that says: "You don't like them so you will say they suck."

As I mentioned before, your premise that something sucks seems to be based upon the power level you attribute to them. And as I also previously mentioned, there is more than one way to play these games. If you want to uber-maximize your party and play on Novice to make yourself feel like the big cheese of the universe, that's fine. It's a legitimate option. I prefer a challenge and tactical gameplay, as I derive enjoyment from battles that require me to think and use whatever resources I have available. Steamrolling through battles at maximum efficiency doesn't lead to much fun in my eyes. To each their own.

But, just so you know, you haven't proven a thing, nor are you any more right than I am.

In other words, you deliberately play gimped characters to give yourself a challenge (which is fine; I don't have a problem with that), and that is why you chose a kender. Which proves my point: They suck.

No, it doesn’t. I play normal characters, same as a lot of people. I don’t make optimization an issue to simply steamroll through the game.

Ahhhh, yes. The "normal characters" schtick.

I will leave your admission of defeat as is. There really isn't much more to say.

Nice try.

 

[Ruhfuss]

Seriously, I'll never understand how some people can get so devastatingly butthurt about the way other people are having fun in a fucking NON-COMPETITIVE SINGLE-PLAYER GAME.

- Kenders suck! (Nobody asked for my advice, but I'll give it anyway. Anything that I say is fact, not opinion, you know! I also don't care how often you've completed the game before!)
- Yes, under some circumstances, they do. That's why I'll change the rules this time around, because I want them to do better IN MY GAME.
- BOO! YOU CHEATH!!! (If things suck, that has to be. Because that are the rules! In my little world, things that suck mustn't change. I'm very religious about that!)
- In my game, I AM GOD! AND GOD SAYS: TREMBLE MORTAL, AND DESPAIR! DOOM HAS COME TO YOUR WORLD!

It seems, one just has to live with the gnosis that there are people in this world, that no matter what, they'll always say CONTRA.

Oh, just to make sure in the case it isn't evident, that was directed at the 6 years old chaotic evil single class black mage kender.

 

[Ruhfuss]

Only Kender can do missile attacks while in melee, which can sometimes be useful against enemy spell casters.

They do? Can't remember if I've ever tried this. Good stuff.

I'm talking about disrupting enemy spell casting, which can be hard of you character is locked in melee, does not have spells or wands, and the enemy spell caster is out of range for hammers or daggers, which have only a range of 3.
Sure, it's not a common situation, but it happens. Happened quite often in Secret of the Silver Blades with the Black Circle, though. I guess that's where I learnt to value being able to do missile attacks while in melee. And I was wrong about only Kenders being able; the correct is that only Kender have long range.

There I was wondering about how a kender made his appearance in a Forgotten Realms game (Well, there's this rumor that because of their curiosity, kender sooner or later make their appearance around anywhere...). But this was more addressed to hammers and daggers also working as ranged weapons while in melee range, yes?

Damn, since I started to use bows more regularly in my games, I seemingly self-trained me to believe that all missile weapons never work while in melee range.

EDIT: This raises the usefulless of hammers and daggers by a bit. I usually never bother with both, because of the limited-ammu-one-shot thing vs. already cramped inventory, or in the case of spiritual hammer the sucky damage.

In the two first games a good backstabber and taunter is more valuable than a third mage.

Three mages AND a good backstabber+taunter is even better.

The one thing I'm missing a bit in my current setup, is a F/Th. For brute force damage on regular size 1 targets, that's my favourite.

EDIT: I still remember when I didn't know about backstabbing mechanics at all, and by chance triggered my first backstab. Great WTF moment.

 

[Ranarama]

Ahhhh, yes. The "normal characters" schtick.

I will leave your admission of defeat as is. There really isn't much more to say.

Is that an admission that you don't roleplay? Perhaps some other website might be better for you.

 

[Incendax]

Is that an admission that you don't roleplay? Perhaps some other website might be better for you.

“Well, of course I asked all the multiclass Qualinesti I know! But most of them said no, or made up some bullshit excuse. These losers are all I could find.”

 

[Cael]

Ahhhh, yes. The "normal characters" schtick.

I will leave your admission of defeat as is. There really isn't much more to say.

Is that an admission that you don't roleplay? Perhaps some other website might be better for you.

When dumbfucks try to obfuscate mechanics with "but I roleplay!!!" Fuck off, dramafags.

 

[octavius]

Well, some of us like diverse characters, with different unique abilities, even if it means the party may slightly less powerful than a party of five multi-class Qualinesti elves. If you reallly need five multi-class Mages, I guess you suck as a player.

 

[Cael]

Well, some of us like diverse characters, with different unique abilities, even if it means the party may slightly less powerful than a party of five multi-class Qualinesti elves. If you reallly need five multi-class Mages, I guess you suck as a player.

The argument was about how kenders suck mechanically. Stick to that, Scandicuck.

 

[octavius]

Well, some of us like diverse characters, with different unique abilities, even if it means the party may slightly less powerful than a party of five multi-class Qualinesti elves. If you reallly need five multi-class Mages, I guess you suck as a player.

The argument was about how kenders suck mechanically. Stick to that, Scandicuck.

I already showed you twice how that argument was wrong, dumbcuck.

 

[Elwro]

So guys, among my numerous psychological issues there is one regarding the GB games, and specifically PoR. Namely: the general opinion and my own impression is that the strength of opposition you meet depends on your stats. I don't want to ''cheat" because if I think I'm cheating it diminishes the fun I'm having. Then again, 18/00 on at least one char makes for a lot less tedious experience. I simply cannot decide on whether to keep the stats I'm dealt, modify them (and if so, how much), or keep rolling until high results are obtained.

So first a question: does opponent power depend on your stats or on whether you have modified them manually?

And then a request: would anyone be willing to provide a PoR party which would not be maximined to extreme but which they would view as fun to play? I liked ChoK but I never got far in PoR...

 

[ProphetSword]

Well, some of us like diverse characters, with different unique abilities, even if it means the party may slightly less powerful than a party of five multi-class Qualinesti elves. If you reallly need five multi-class Mages, I guess you suck as a player.

The argument was about how kenders suck mechanically. Stick to that, Scandicuck.

Well, so far you haven’t brought anything to the argument other than your hatred of Kender, while completely ignoring any and all valid reasons why they are good for a party. So, it’s becoming abundantly clear why you have a dumbfuck tag. I can’t possibly take you seriously.

In your own words, I think we’re done here.

 

[octavius]

So guys, among my numerous psychological issues there is one regarding the GB games, and specifically PoR. Namely: the general opinion and my own impression is that the strength of opposition you meet depends on your stats. I don't want to ''cheat" because if I think I'm cheating it diminishes the fun I'm having. Then again, 18/00 on at least one char makes for a lot less tedious experience. I simply cannot decide on whether to keep the stats I'm dealt, modify them (and if so, how much), or keep rolling until high results are obtained.

So first a question: does opponent power depend on your stats or on whether you have modified them manually?

I don't think it matters.

But I'd say Dex is a more important stat. It governs initiative, AC and missile THAC0, and since you get two APR with bows, bows rule in the beginning, especially before your fighters start Sweeping enemies. I prefer using a hired Hero as a frontliner, and have the rest (except maybe a Cleric) use bows.

 

[Incendax]

So first a question: does opponent power depend on your stats or on whether you have modified them manually?

POR encounters depend on your stats, but don’t care how you got them. A party with 18/3/3/3/3/3 will encounter much smaller enemy groups than 18/18/18/18/18/18.

 

[Null Null]

https://ua.reonis.com/index.php?topic=3002.msg42716;topicseen#msg42716

The algorithm was actually decoded by Simeon Pilgrim a few years ago.

From what I can tell the key line of code is

power_value += (byte)(((cleric_power * 4) + hit_points + (armor_class * 5) + (hit_bonus * 5) + (magic_power * 8)) / 10);

There's some weird stuff where THAC0 and AC are stored as 60-the actual number, I assume, to avoid having to use signed integers (remember, we're writing this game in 1988), but the upshot is "armor class" gets added to for every point of AC below 0, and "hit bonus" gets added to for every point of THAC0 below 21.

This theoretically means you should get your AC down to 0, but no further, in areas like the Slums and Podol Plaza that scale heavily. (Anyone with quick access to the game want to verify?)

Other than that, on a less powergame-y note, it's obvious packing your party with lots of multiclass mages is going to inflate the monster counts so don't do it if you don't want to put up with those endless POR fights with lots of low-level enemies. There's also an argument for delaying mage training until the Slums and Kuto's Well have been cleared.

 

[Ruhfuss]

So essentially, if one wanted to break PoR's power scaling, all PCs should run around naked and with the type of weapon (melee vs. ranged) that give them the worst possible THAC0, ready for-real-equipment at start of combat, and go back to unthreatening-nudist-stance at end of combat...

 

[ProphetSword]

The problem with that, though, is that if the monsters win initiative they could quickly bring down your unarmored party before you get to act. One wonders if it would be worth it just to have a couple fewer monsters.

 

[Incendax]

That would be a micro nightmare. Honestly, I never had problems beating the massive swarms of monsters in random encounters. It was just time consuming. Now that you can speed up combat to absurd levels, it’s less of a hassle.

 

[eXalted]

So guys, among my numerous psychological issues there is one regarding the GB games, and specifically PoR. Namely: the general opinion and my own impression is that the strength of opposition you meet depends on your stats.

I'm almost sure it matters. Having a maxed out party results in harder encounters in some of the games (or all of them).

 

[DavidBVal]

Decline truly started early...

On the other hand, it is what any sensible PnP DM does, adjusting encounters to the party power level, so back then when the SSI games really focused on simulating the PnP experience, makes sense that they introduced such adjustments.

 

[Incendax]

On the other hand, it is what any sensible PnP DM does, adjusting encounters to the party power level, so back then when the SSI games really focused on simulating the PnP experience, makes sense that they introduced such adjustments.

In theory.

What actually happened is you just sat there while 40 kobolds Guarded since most of them couldn’t move. Or even worse, Wait then Guard.

 

[Ruhfuss]

On the other hand, it is what any sensible PnP DM does, adjusting encounters to the party power level, so back then when the SSI games really focused on simulating the PnP experience, makes sense that they introduced such adjustments.

In theory.

What actually happened is you just sat there while 40 kobolds Guarded since most of them couldn’t move. Or even worse, Wait then Guard.

That's why I'm not fond of the power scaling in PoR. It just adds tediousness. OTOH, PoR might be the Gold Box game that punishes players that go without maxed PCs the least.

I just completed Jelek in CoK. Damn, that was rage inducing. Out of habit, I go to Jelek right after Throtl, so it's expected to be more difficult. I didn't have access to level 3 mage spells yet, but even if I did, I'm on a strict Fireball diet this time around. And I'm not willing to accept any man-downs in mook encounters.

I got the feeling that, in the graveyard area alone, I had to reload more often than throughout my whole PoD run. Wouldn't have been more fun without maxed stats for sure. (EDIT: Btw, the black dragon fight wasn't any trouble at all.)

Tactical challenge is a good thing, but mostly just battling the RNG due to save-or-rage effects pushes the game way too much into the gambling zone.

 

[Null Null]

My favorite inversion of the usual order of things in PoR was to put off going to Sokal Keep until I had a level 5 magic-user.

Yes, I meant I had to sneak into the wilderness through Podol Plaza, but I am too lazy in middle age to go through the big fight in the center with the hobgoblins and orcs.

A fun challenge if you want to go fast is single-character.

 

[smaug]

Just finished THROTL.

damn clerics

And I still haven’t even found a longbow for my ranger just shortbows and I’m surprised how long THROTL was.

weapon break is brutal

 

[Sinatar]

THROTL? That a FRUA module or something?