Gold Box SSI's Gold Box Series Thread

[Null Null]

Never seen anyone use two knights. They get clerical spells at higher levels, though, often quite a few at really high levels, so it can be a reasonable choice.

You need a thief to finish one necessary encounter in Dark Queen (you have to make a climbing roll to get to a lever in the Tower of Flame). Otherwise, yeah, they're kind of a wimpy class in Goldbox (thus the discussion on the FRUA boards). EDIT: Apparently this is not required (though I remember trying with an 18-DEX character and failing) but you do need a thief to complete optional encounters in Death Knights of Krynn.

One of the big differences with the Krynn series is due to the laxer level limits on demihumans, multiclass characters are viable at high levels. A lot of people like to load up their parties with cleric/mages, ranger/clerics, fighter/mages, and fighter/cleric/mages. There's a pretty good argument for keeping single-class mages through Dark Queen due to the linearization of the XP curve at high levels, but your wizards will max out before that in the other games. On the other hands, more clerics is useful in Death Knights because there are a lot of undead. Tradeoffs!

Note that only some races can max out some classes: elves can max out as clerics, rangers, or mages or thieves (Qualinesti only), half-elves as clerics or thieves, dwarves as fighters, and kenders as thieves.

You have your choice of 7 gods. The best good gods are Majere (two levels higher on cleric turning) and Mishakal (stronger healing spells). The best neutral god is IMHO Shinare (charm person comes in handy occasionally), but you can try Sirrion if you really like your clerics casting Burning Hands. Kender clerics are limited to level 12, but a Majere cleric turns as two levels higher...so you can still max out turning, which peaks at level 14. Keep in mind that kender clerics will be unable to cast level 6 or 7 spells in Dark Queen due to having wisdom 16 max (but will be able to cast level 6 spells in Death Knights, because oops.) If you're sending people through Death Knights be aware clerics of good won't get 7th level spells in that game (though they will in Dark Queen), so there's an argument for having at least one cleric of neutrality if you are playing both games.

Red vs White? They each have some spells the other doesn't, so it's good to have one of each. My usual practice was if I had a single and a dual or a dual and a triple-classed mage to make the less-multiclassed mage red as they get fireball at 4th level and their dedicated spells (Mirror Image, Haste, Slow) are a little better than the dedicated white spells (Charm Person, Confusion, Charm Monster, Minor Globe, Hold monster), particularly at lower levels, but it's honestly kind of a close tradeoff and you should have both types of mages in your party.

So you can go a few different directions with this (which is why many people prefer the Krynn series).

If you want to take your boys (or girls) all the way to Dark Queen, I'd say swap out one of the knights for a ranger/cleric, dual-class your cleric to a ranger/cleric, and keep your two mages, or maybe make one a fighter/mage for survivability or a cleric/mage to turn undead in Death Knights. Make your fighter/thief a kender cleric/thief because this is your only chance to make one, and you'll need the extra clerics in Death Knights (which has tons of undead). You can also backstab with the hoopak in Death Knights of Krynn, which allows you to do a backstab with a blunt weapon against skeleton warriors (which are otherwise hard to kill)--props to Octavius for this one.

If you want a powergaming strategy for Champions, you can go knight, cleric/thief, fighter/cleric/mage x 4. Once you're able to toss fireballs around (which starts at level 4 for red mages) you will be very hard to beat. I've beaten the Kernen gate encounter without softening it up first with that party. Keep in mind these guys will slow down rapidly in the later games.

If you want to enjoy as much of the flavor of the Krynn games as possible, lots of other combos are possible. Human knight, kender cleric/thief, elf ranger/cleric, elf fighter/mage, elf fighter/cleric/mage, and elf fighter/mage allows for a bunch of different characters and is relatively versatile. If you still want a single-class mage, replace the fighter/mage with a human mage. If you want a little more combat beef and want to include a dwarf, toss in a dwarven fighter instead.

Comments from others welcome.

 

[octavius]

Fighter/Thief or Cleric/Thief and Cleric are very useful in the the two first games, but in the third one not so much. I still like the Kender Cleric/Thief for its unique abilities (Taunt and backstabbing with Hoopaks), but it just isn't very effective in Dark Queen.

In the third game a spell casting Knight is more useful than a Cleric, since they are much better fighters and their spell casting gets so good you hardly need the Cleric.

So the optimal party in the first game is not the optimal party in the last game.

 

[Cael]

Hi Team Gold Box.

So, in between my official LP of Pool of Radiance, I am playing Champions of Krynn for my downtime leisure and I am finding it kind of amazing. I especially love the specialty priests and lunar system that influences the power of magic. It's a refreshing change from the vanilla fantasy setting that is the Realms.

Here is my current setup:

Knight
Knight
White Mage
Red Mage
Priest of Majere
Fighter / Thief

---

I really want to drop the Fighter / Thief and replace it with another Priest of Majere for extra Turning / divine spellcasting.

What say you all, experts? Can I get by with an NPC thief in the rest of the series?

---

You won't get a NPC thief other than Silas, and he is in a part of DQK that don't need a thief in the first place.

You also don't need a thief unless you want to do Dave's Challenge in DKK. The Tower of Flame thing can be done by anyone with a high enough dex (I do it all the time with my elf F/C/M). Sorry, Null Null, but that one is incorrect.

There are a few things you need to realise about the Krynn series:
1. Demi-humans are souped up in the sense that their max levels are raised dramatically compared to the FR games. This makes elves a very good choice if you want to multiclass. Qualinesti even get to level 14 fighter, which is all you really need as a fighter.
2. Level caps in the first two games are very low compared to the amount of XP they are throwing at you. As a human red robe, for example, you will hit level cap about halfway through both games. In the last one, however, it will go nuts in terms of levels very, very quickly. In fact, a single runthrough of the series without hitting all of the possible quest XP will get you to level 30+ out of 40 with a human red robe.
3. Clerics are not the best in Krynn as they don't get ANY of the normal attack spells clerics get other than Blade Barrier and Flame Strike. That's right, no Inflict spells, no Harm, no Slay Living.
4. IIRC, Paladin get to command NPCs in battles virtually automatically. Knights are very dependent on your Knight order (Rose is automatic, Sword about 50% and Crown very low). That said, Knights get far better spells than Paladins ever will, and that more than compensates for whatever piddly abilities Paladins have.
5. You can't dual-class in Krynn, so humans got the bone.
6. Elves can cast mage spells in full armour. This is important if you are thinking of multiclassing mages.
7. Elves get -1 con, but that does not affect their racial maximum (unlike other demi-humans). That means you can have a 18Con, 19Dex elf.

What I am saying is that the Krynn series is very multiclass elf-centric, and a Qualinesti Fighter/Red Mage is never a bad idea. Of course, I play with 1x Knight and 5x Qualinesti FCM when I am wanting a bit of a challenge, but that is just me. While keeping them alive in the early game is challenging, 5x DBF towards the end of DKK simplifies everything.

My RP party is:
2x Knights (one is actually the squire of the other)
2x Qualinesti F/M (white) (twin sisters)
1x Cleric of Mishakal (replaced with a human F/C (Kiri-Jolith) using Gold Box Companion as this cleric became a NPC you meet in DKK)
1x Qualinesti T/M (red)

 

[Null Null]

Might be easier to simply state the minimum requirements and let dmwyvern arrange as he sees fit (and fun).

One knight (certain quest in Champions, and good clerical ability at high levels).
Two clerics, preferably a good and a neutral. A third helps in Death Knights.
Two mages, one red and one white. Single-classed mages help in Dark Queen.
The first three characters should be effective in combat (fighter/knight/paladin/ranger or dual-classed fighter/ranger).

When multiclassing, elves can reach max level as clerics, rangers, and mages, half-elves as clerics and thieves, kender as thieves, and dwarves as fighters.

The rest is commentary.

 

[Erebus]

Knight
Knight
White Mage
Red Mage
Priest of Majere
Fighter / Thief

---

I really want to drop the Fighter / Thief and replace it with another Priest of Majere for extra Turning / divine spellcasting.

What say you all, experts? Can I get by with an NPC thief in the rest of the series?

You absolutely don't need a thief in the Krynn series, though their backstab ability can be pretty powerful.

Having two Knights is rather unusual, I don't think I've ever tried it. It's a good class, but usually stuck with a Movement of 6 (because of their heavy armors) and I like having at least one of my main warriors be faster than that.

I fully approve having two single-classed Mages. The quicker you get access to the high-level spells, the better.

As Cael says, Clerics are pretty weak in combat. At low level, they're reasonably competent warriors and Hold Person is pretty useful. But after that, they really suck. They remain valuable as healers (though Knights of the Sword/Rose become decent healers at mid-level).

In general, I'm in favor of multi-classing Clerics. If you want your Cleric of Majere to be especially good at turning undead, however, it would make sense to make him single-classed. Still, two single-classed Clerics seems too much to me, especially since your two Knights will eventually be able to serve as healers too. In DKK and especially DQK, your Knights would be your only reliable warriors, and having only two reliable warriors seems a bit risky.

Still, feel free to try. As long as you avoid getting screwed by racial level limits, I think that the series allows you to experiment with many different party composition.

 

[Cael]

Definitely no to 2 single classed clerics. You only need a healer until the knights change class to Sword and get to level 6 (so around the end of Champions). Once there, they can easily take over. Knights get to level 7 cleric spells, and get a wisdom bonus to spells memorised. With the Fix command, you really only ever need 1 healer (unless he gets killed, but that is what the other Knight is for).

While a cleric is useful in DKK, bear in mind you do NOT get full XP for turning them, and in several areas (the most vital areas, natch!), your turning is weakened. It is better, IMO, to invest in another mage and just blow them up instead.

Bear in mind also that the Solamnic Plate is a nonmagical +3 Plate (base AC 0). You can get better armours, and sacrificing a couple of AC points for something faster is not a bad exchange. The maximum possible AC in DQK is -21, and you really don't need that much. I am not sure if the -10 AC limit is implemented in the game. If it is, then you are way over the limit and really don't need the SPlate. Feel free to have your Knights to wear something else.

Honestly, though, if you want an easier time of it, play with 1x knight, 1x F/C (Kiri-Jolith), 2x mages, 1x F/M and 1x T/M (red). The fireballs wiping out entire screens of dragons is incredibly satisfying, and Dave's Challenge is worth having a thief for in terms of XP, loot and sheer fun if you haven't done it before.

 

[weirwood]

You have your choice of 7 gods. The best good gods are Majere (two levels higher on cleric turning) and Mishakal (stronger healing spells). The best neutral god is IMHO Shinare (charm person comes in handy occasionally), but you can try Sirrion if you really like your clerics casting Burning Hands. Kender clerics are limited to level 12, but a Majere cleric turns as two levels higher...so you can still max out turning, which peaks at level 14. Keep in mind that kender clerics will be unable to cast level 6 or 7 spells in Dark Queen due to having wisdom 16 max (but will be able to cast level 6 spells in Death Knights, because oops.) If you're sending people through Death Knights be aware clerics of good won't get 7th level spells in that game (though they will in Dark Queen), so there's an argument for having at least one cleric of neutrality if you are playing both games.

Comments from others welcome.

I agree with almost anything Null Null said. A single class cleric isn't the most powerful character, but I'd take Mishakal for one, as their buffed healing spells can make a difference when casting them in combat. They'll also have more high level spells than multi-class celrics in DQK. I tend to build my parties with DQK in mind, so I discount Majere. Turning undead is unreliable in DKK due to area penalties, and at high levels, i.e. DQK, Majere doesn't provide any benefit anymore. For any multi-class cleric that will be fighting, Kiri-Jolith is good for the THAC0 bonus. Especially in the first game, it really helps a cleric/thief land their backstabs.

Neutral clerics are a bit niche. They're most useful for their access to Restoration in DKK, but you can get by with good clerics and scrolls.

I also agree about the dwarf fighter; they make the best dragon lance wielders later on due to their hp, especially on champion difficulty.

4. IIRC, Paladin get to command NPCs in battles virtually automatically. Knights are very dependent on your Knight order (Rose is automatic, Sword about 50% and Crown very low). That said, Knights get far better spells than Paladins ever will, and that more than compensates for whatever piddly abilities Paladins have.

Commanding NPCs only becomes a thing in the second game. I don't know if paladins have any special advantage there, but high charisma definitely helps. For knight orders, the important thing to know is that you shouldn't advance orders too early. Getting the additional attacks from reaching level 7 and 13 is more important than having a few extra cleric spells, and the higher orders take a lot more xp to advance in levels. The rule of thumb is to stay Crown for COK, at least until you have enough xp to stay at level 7 when you advance to Sword. Changing to Rose from Sword should only be done late in DQK, when you have enough xp to stay at level 18 after the change. The only advantage Rose has over Sword is that you can advance past level 18, their spellcasting is the same.

Bear in mind also that the Solamnic Plate is a nonmagical +3 Plate (base AC 0). You can get better armours, and sacrificing a couple of AC points for something faster is not a bad exchange. The maximum possible AC in DQK is -21, and you really don't need that much. I am not sure if the -10 AC limit is implemented in the game. If it is, then you are way over the limit and really don't need the SPlate. Feel free to have your Knights to wear something else.

Cloaks and rings of protection don't stack with magical armor, but they do stack with Solamnic Plate. You can compensate for the slower movement with boots of speed. Going from 6 to 12 movement is a lot more significant than from 12 to 24 or 9 to 18.

 

[Erebus]

I don't know if having two Knights instead of one increases your chances of controlling NPCs. It would be rather useful if it were the case. A Knight of the Rose will manage to command NPCs most of the time, but it's by no means guaranteed (and companions are largely useless when controlled by the AI).

I agree with Weirwood that you shouldn't switch Knights to Sword/Rose too early. Knights of the Crown already require more XP than fighters and rangers to gain levels, and the higher orders are significantly slower.

 

[dmwyvern]

I also agree about the dwarf fighter; they make the best dragon lance wielders later on due to their hp, especially on champion difficulty.

Wait! Stop the presses. Fighters can use Dragonlances? I thought they were restricted to the Knightly Orders.

Also, really appreciate everyone that has chimed-in so far. I plan to try and get back to you all with my own feedback / response. ^_^

 

[Null Null]

You can avoid losing levels if you switch from Crown to Sword at 45000-84999 XP (level 5) or 95000-139999 XP (level 6) or 175000-219999 XP (level 7). Otherwise you will actually lose levels and your XP will go down.

Similarly you can go from Sword to Rose at 5,500,000 XP--Sword caps at 18 so there is no reason not to at that point.

 

[Cael]

I also agree about the dwarf fighter; they make the best dragon lance wielders later on due to their hp, especially on champion difficulty.

Wait! Stop the presses. Fighters can use Dragonlances? I thought they were restricted to the Knightly Orders.

Also, really appreciate everyone that has chimed-in so far. I plan to try and get back to you all with my own feedback / response. ^_^

Anyone who can wield a spear can use a dragonlance. It is basically a +5 spear with a special ability.

 

[Cael]

You have your choice of 7 gods. The best good gods are Majere (two levels higher on cleric turning) and Mishakal (stronger healing spells). The best neutral god is IMHO Shinare (charm person comes in handy occasionally), but you can try Sirrion if you really like your clerics casting Burning Hands. Kender clerics are limited to level 12, but a Majere cleric turns as two levels higher...so you can still max out turning, which peaks at level 14. Keep in mind that kender clerics will be unable to cast level 6 or 7 spells in Dark Queen due to having wisdom 16 max (but will be able to cast level 6 spells in Death Knights, because oops.) If you're sending people through Death Knights be aware clerics of good won't get 7th level spells in that game (though they will in Dark Queen), so there's an argument for having at least one cleric of neutrality if you are playing both games.

Comments from others welcome.

I agree with almost anything Null Null said. A single class cleric isn't the most powerful character, but I'd take Mishakal for one, as their buffed healing spells can make a difference when casting them in combat. They'll also have more high level spells than multi-class celrics in DQK. I tend to build my parties with DQK in mind, so I discount Majere. Turning undead is unreliable in DKK due to area penalties, and at high levels, i.e. DQK, Majere doesn't provide any benefit anymore. For any multi-class cleric that will be fighting, Kiri-Jolith is good for the THAC0 bonus. Especially in the first game, it really helps a cleric/thief land their backstabs.

Neutral clerics are a bit niche. They're most useful for their access to Restoration in DKK, but you can get by with good clerics and scrolls.

I also agree about the dwarf fighter; they make the best dragon lance wielders later on due to their hp, especially on champion difficulty.

4. IIRC, Paladin get to command NPCs in battles virtually automatically. Knights are very dependent on your Knight order (Rose is automatic, Sword about 50% and Crown very low). That said, Knights get far better spells than Paladins ever will, and that more than compensates for whatever piddly abilities Paladins have.

Commanding NPCs only becomes a thing in the second game. I don't know if paladins have any special advantage there, but high charisma definitely helps. For knight orders, the important thing to know is that you shouldn't advance orders too early. Getting the additional attacks from reaching level 7 and 13 is more important than having a few extra cleric spells, and the higher orders take a lot more xp to advance in levels. The rule of thumb is to stay Crown for COK, at least until you have enough xp to stay at level 7 when you advance to Sword. Changing to Rose from Sword should only be done late in DQK, when you have enough xp to stay at level 18 after the change. The only advantage Rose has over Sword is that you can advance past level 18, their spellcasting is the same.

Bear in mind also that the Solamnic Plate is a nonmagical +3 Plate (base AC 0). You can get better armours, and sacrificing a couple of AC points for something faster is not a bad exchange. The maximum possible AC in DQK is -21, and you really don't need that much. I am not sure if the -10 AC limit is implemented in the game. If it is, then you are way over the limit and really don't need the SPlate. Feel free to have your Knights to wear something else.

Cloaks and rings of protection don't stack with magical armor, but they do stack with Solamnic Plate. You can compensate for the slower movement with boots of speed. Going from 6 to 12 movement is a lot more significant than from 12 to 24 or 9 to 18.

I am pretty ambivalent about a Dwarf fighter. You don't really need the extra HP/damage when dragons peak at 88 HP (reds). Even single-class mages will come close to that by the end of DQK. Of course, if you like HP bloat, there is always the higher difficulties, but meh. HP bloat is boring.

Agreed with the Knights changing order thing, which is why I said end of COK. You can technically chance order to Sword at level 4, but it is better not to until you are sure of level 6 Sword for the spell. Arguably level 7 if you don't mind not having a single CLW for a while :D

Definitely stay Sword until you have enough XP for level 18 Rose, which is, unfortunately, towards the end of DQK, IIRC.

You can substitute Cloak of Protection +3 with a Cloak of Displacement (-2AC vs -3AC, and has a special anti-arrow ability, I think). You lose out on the Ring of Protection, but a +4 plate is functionally +1 SPlate, so you only lose 3 AC there, but get full 12 movement and the ability to equip both the Ring of Freedom of Movement and Ring of Fire Resistance. That means enemy fireballs affect you less, you get to the enemy casters faster and they can't paralyse or slow you (Stinking Cloud still works, I think).

Not using Rings of Protection is, however, even more valuable to elf F/M as they can cast in full armour, and they have access to the Ring of Wizardry, so your mileage might vary on this one. There is only so many other rings to go around (but plenty of rings of protection in the first 2 games).

 

[Removal]

Are Baaz draconians common enough to justify carrying around a second weapon set on your frontline through all the Krynn games or are they more in CoK?

 

[octavius]

Only in the first game, really.

 

[Erebus]

DQK has Enchanted Baaz, who can trap your weapon whenever they're hit, not just when they're killed. They're far from being the most annoying type of draconians (just wait until you meet Enchanted Bozak...), but having a second weapon may still be useful once in a while.

I am pretty ambivalent about a Dwarf fighter. You don't really need the extra HP/damage when dragons peak at 88 HP (reds).

Death Dragons have 120 HP, if I remember correctly. Besides, since a dragonlance inflicts damage equal to the wielder's current HP, a warrior who only has average HP may easily be wounded to the point where he can no longer one-shot a dragon.

In any case, I think it's important that the first dragonlance wielder in the party be someone with a Movement of 12. Some dragons can inflict a lot of damage with their breath weapons, and you really want your dragonlance guy to be able to reach them ASAP.

 

[dmwyvern]

Great feebdack! Again, I do plan to get to an epic reply post because I am reading through all your suggestions here.

Ran into something else that I wanted to run by the veterans here: Character Death.

Just ran into Giant Snakes while raiding Gargath in Champions of Krynn. Their poison killed both my frontline knights.

Two questions:

1. Neutralize Poison

If I cast this on one of my knights before the battle ends, can I prevent them from dying and needing to be raised from the dead?

2. Raise Dead or Power Word Reload?

Seeing how I do not have access to Ressurection yet, anytime I Raise Dead on a fallen PC I take a one-point reduction in that PCs Constitution. That stings, but if we're doing an Ironman style playthrough, can you get by with the Con hit? What say you vets?

 

[octavius]

You don't need Raise Dead. Neutralize Poison works even if the character's status is "dead". Slow Poison also works as a temporary remedy to avoid having to use Raise Dead or Ressurection if your low level party can reach a Temple in time.

CON is not vital, only nice.
But remember that if you play Iron Man you have to be very careful with your Elf characters. In the Krynn games not even Resurrection can get them back if they are killed.

And for all characters "Gone" (usually from a failing a saving throw if targeted by a Beholder ray) really means gone.

 

[Cael]

DQK has Enchanted Baaz, who can trap your weapon whenever they're hit, not just when they're killed. They're far from being the most annoying type of draconians (just wait until you meet Enchanted Bozak...), but having a second weapon may still be useful once in a while.

I am pretty ambivalent about a Dwarf fighter. You don't really need the extra HP/damage when dragons peak at 88 HP (reds).

Death Dragons have 120 HP, if I remember correctly. Besides, since a dragonlance inflicts damage equal to the wielder's current HP, a warrior who only has average HP may easily be wounded to the point where he can no longer one-shot a dragon.

In any case, I think it's important that the first dragonlance wielder in the party be someone with a Movement of 12. Some dragons can inflict a lot of damage with their breath weapons, and you really want your dragonlance guy to be able to reach them ASAP.

You are correct in both.

Enchanted baaz in DQK has a chance to take your weapon on every hit, although this is mitigated by a high Dex, I think. You can have a second weapon on standby, but I believe you will start running into space issues really quickly. 2 rings, boots, helm, cloak, shield, melee weapon, ranged weapon, ammo, armour. That is a whole lot of your available space gone. Won't take much to tip you over the edge.

With the dragonlance, it is always a case of everything or nothing. You will either one shot the dragons or they breath on you and 1 extra hp/level won't really matter any more.

 

[Cael]

You don't need Raise Dead. Neutralize Poison works even if the character's status is "dead". Slow Poison also works as a temporary remedy to avoid having to use Raise Dead or Ressurection if your low level party can reach a Temple in time.

CON is not vital, only nice.
But remember that if you play Iron Man you have to be very careful with your Elf characters. In the Krynn games not even Resurrection can get them back if they are killed.

And for all characters "Gone" (usually from a failing a saving throw if targeted by a Beholder ray) really means gone.

Con is extremely nice when you are not rerolling hp like he is. The difference between 1 and 3 hp is huge for mages, for example.

 

[Erebus]

Just re-read my old DQK manual. I'd completely forgotten that Knights may find themselves unable to change order simply because some of their ability scores are too low. They need a WIS of 13 at least, for example. And a CON of 15 is required to become a Knight of the Rose.

 

[dmwyvern]

So, a knew thing happened in my current CoK playthrough. One of my Knights went berserk in combat and started attacking both PCs and monsters.

I went ahead and charmed him and ended the encounter but when I came back to the exploration screen that character was missing, almost as if he dropped out of the party. Is this a bug associated with charming party members?

Also, next time a PC goes berserk should I just try and wait until they come back to their senses?

 

[octavius]

Character dropping out sounds like a bug. Even if he's technically hostile he's still a party member.
So Hold Person may be better, and then Remove Curse after combat to remove the cause of him berserking.

 

[Joonas]

There's a two-handed sword, berserk, in CoK. Does your knight have that in inventory? He might equip it automatically in quickfight mode.

 

[Erebus]

There's a two-handed sword, berserk, in CoK.

It's probably because of that. I don't remember anything else in the game that can make a PC go berserk (though they can of course be Charmed by enemies).

The one time it happened to me, I just knocked that PC out and nothing weird happened after that (he remained in the party just as if he'd been knocked out by an enemy).

I'm not sure what happens if the PC with the sword kills or knocks out the rest of the party, and ends up being the only one left standing.

 

[Cael]

So, a knew thing happened in my current CoK playthrough. One of my Knights went berserk in combat and started attacking both PCs and monsters.

I went ahead and charmed him and ended the encounter but when I came back to the exploration screen that character was missing, almost as if he dropped out of the party. Is this a bug associated with charming party members?

Also, next time a PC goes berserk should I just try and wait until they come back to their senses?

IIRC, GB doesn't handle you Charming your own party members very well. Turns them in base hostile or something like that, which means they are no longer in the party. It took them until BG to fix that.