Gold Box SSI's Gold Box Series Thread

[Null Null]

Promoting from Crown to Sword and from Sword to Rose can indeed involve level loss. However, the XP tables for Crown and Sword overlap, so there are certain XP ranges (in Champions) where you can promote without losing levels. Check the manual and promote in one of those.

Sword to Rose is easy--promote after you have enough XP to reach level 18 in Rose. Otherwise there's no advantage.

The Knight was indeed a cavalier subclass. There was this whole thing in Unearthed Arcana how if you were born into the wrong social class you had to spend time as a knight's assistant so there were negative (!) XP values corresponding to those levels. I don't think anyone actually used them.

(Of course, to be a bard you had to start as a fighter, then change to thief, then change a third time to druid, except you were really a bard. 1st edition had a lot of weird rules.)

 

[Joonas]

Since level progression tables get discussed quite often, I uploaded text progression charts for each game here:
http://gbc.zorbus.net/#xp

The tables are included with the GBC package and can be opened from the GBC main window by clicking "XP Tables".

The tables are created by running a script that automatically trains characters in a training hall (by sending keystrokes to the game window), then saving the character data from memory. It was several years ago, but I'm pretty sure that I used GOG-versions of the games.

Note that GBC level up allows Knights of the Crown to train to level 40 so the progression table of that class also goes up to level 40. Otherwise the tables hopefully respect the max levels of the games. The experimental monk/paladin/ranger classes are also listed for PoR.

There are several level up related bugs and oddities in the games. Some of these are taken care when GBC level up is used
and some left untouched:

• Secret of the Silver Blades:
  • According to the manual and all other games, a paladin needs 2,450,001 xp for level 15. In Secret, you need 2,460,001.
• The Dark Queen of Krynn:
  • When a character reaches level 19 or higher, all saving throws are set to zero!
    • GBC level up sets level 18 saving throw values for level 19 and higher.
  • Paladin does not get more than 1 level 4 cleric spell.
    • GBC sets this to 2 at level 19 and to 3 at level 20 and higher.
• Krynn-games in general:
  • Cleric and mage spells per day values in the games differ from what's stated in the manuals.
    • Not changed in GBC level up.
• Gateway to the Savage Frontier:
  • Thief skill values are odd (most over 200). Not sure if this a bug or not.
    • GBC sets these to those of the other games.
• Unlimited Adventures:
  • Thief saving throws are all zeros for all experience levels.
    • GBC level up fixes these (saves are set the same as in Pools of Darkness).

Note that the fixes / changes are done only when GBC level up is used. For FRUA, I think the unofficial patch fixes the saving throw issue.

 

[DavidBVal]

When a character reaches level 19 or higher, all saving throws are set to zero!

So that's how Raistlin defeats Takhishis.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I'm currently at Jelek and my patience with the game is beginning to run thin. Throtl Keep started going heavy into the Cleric and Black Mage spam about halfway through the dungeon and now at Jelek every encounter has Elven Clerics who are highly resistant to Sleep and Hold Person. Combat feels way less tactical and more about luck if I can Hold them myself first or not. It's getting kind of tiresome restarting the game so often for random encounters just because I failed to Hold the enemy clerics, or if they just happened to roll for a higher initiative and Hold or Charm me immediately. Is this what I can expect from the rest of the game? I'm not sure I care to play much more if it is.

 

[DavidBVal]

I'm currently at Jelek and my patience with the game is beginning to run thin. Throtl Keep started going heavy into the Cleric and Black Mage spam about halfway through the dungeon and now at Jelek every encounter has Elven Clerics who are highly resistant to Sleep and Hold Person. Combat feels way less tactical and more about luck if I can Hold them myself first or not. It's getting kind of tiresome restarting the game so often for random encounters just because I failed to Hold the enemy clerics, or if they just happened to roll for a higher initiative and Hold or Charm me immediately. Is this what I can expect from the rest of the game? I'm not sure I care to play much more if it is.

I am doing alright there, thanks to ranged attacks. I have my elven MC casters using bows, plus a Kender; they usually manage to damage a couple casters each round. Also, Silence 15' lands often. My problem is more about lack of damage, those evil fighter types take a long time to kill... combat against AC2 enemies feels a bit sluggish, with so many misses and 4-6 hits required to fell a 30hp fighter.

Still I agree with you, I liked more the encounters in PoR. So many casters makes them hardly special anymore.

 

[octavius]

I'm currently at Jelek and my patience with the game is beginning to run thin. Throtl Keep started going heavy into the Cleric and Black Mage spam about halfway through the dungeon and now at Jelek every encounter has Elven Clerics who are highly resistant to Sleep and Hold Person. Combat feels way less tactical and more about luck if I can Hold them myself first or not. It's getting kind of tiresome restarting the game so often for random encounters just because I failed to Hold the enemy clerics, or if they just happened to roll for a higher initiative and Hold or Charm me immediately. Is this what I can expect from the rest of the game? I'm not sure I care to play much more if it is.

You need to prevent them from casting by damaging them before or during their spell casting.
You shouldn't need to cast spells in random encounters. Also, Elves are immune to Sleep, I think, and the spell only works on creatures with 4 HD or less (1 Ogre, or more weaker enemies).
Another thing about random encounters: their numbers are finite, but they get reset if you leave and reenter an area.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Can GBC allow you to level up to 40 in the early games POR, Curse, Secret, Cok, DKOK, savage frontier?

 

[Null Null]

You can't cast spells they didn't program in yet.

There are some fun exceptions like the Savage Frontier series, where you can import your Curse characters into Gateway and hit the shambling mounds with Hold Monster, or your Pools characters into Treasures and toss a delayed blast fireball onto Geildarr's 'sea of men and monsters', but generally, creating characters of too-high level doesn't work well. The XP and spell charts haven't been programmed in--Genheeris the level 7 mage in Pool can't memorize spells, because there's no line in the code for level 7 mage.

 

[Cael]

I'm currently at Jelek and my patience with the game is beginning to run thin. Throtl Keep started going heavy into the Cleric and Black Mage spam about halfway through the dungeon and now at Jelek every encounter has Elven Clerics who are highly resistant to Sleep and Hold Person. Combat feels way less tactical and more about luck if I can Hold them myself first or not. It's getting kind of tiresome restarting the game so often for random encounters just because I failed to Hold the enemy clerics, or if they just happened to roll for a higher initiative and Hold or Charm me immediately. Is this what I can expect from the rest of the game? I'm not sure I care to play much more if it is.

Stinking Cloud, Luke. Use the Stinking Cloud.

Elves are also 90% resistance to Sleep and Charm. It is right there in the manual...

 

[rojay]

I'm currently at Jelek and my patience with the game is beginning to run thin. Throtl Keep started going heavy into the Cleric and Black Mage spam about halfway through the dungeon and now at Jelek every encounter has Elven Clerics who are highly resistant to Sleep and Hold Person. Combat feels way less tactical and more about luck if I can Hold them myself first or not. It's getting kind of tiresome restarting the game so often for random encounters just because I failed to Hold the enemy clerics, or if they just happened to roll for a higher initiative and Hold or Charm me immediately. Is this what I can expect from the rest of the game? I'm not sure I care to play much more if it is.

You pretty much have to win initiative against casters. Initiative is determined by dexterity; if you didn't max dexterity on your characters when you started, you run an increased risk that an enemy caster will get spells off before you can act. If you think that's bad now, wait until you run into high-level casters.

 

[Cael]

I'm currently at Jelek and my patience with the game is beginning to run thin. Throtl Keep started going heavy into the Cleric and Black Mage spam about halfway through the dungeon and now at Jelek every encounter has Elven Clerics who are highly resistant to Sleep and Hold Person. Combat feels way less tactical and more about luck if I can Hold them myself first or not. It's getting kind of tiresome restarting the game so often for random encounters just because I failed to Hold the enemy clerics, or if they just happened to roll for a higher initiative and Hold or Charm me immediately. Is this what I can expect from the rest of the game? I'm not sure I care to play much more if it is.

You pretty much have to win initiative against casters. Initiative is determined by dexterity; if you didn't max dexterity on your characters when you started, you run an increased risk that an enemy caster will get spells off before you can act. If you think that's bad now, wait until you run into high-level casters.

*starts fight*
*3 DBF later, reload game*

 

[Sinatar]

Just wait until DQoK when every random encounter has multiple level 40 red mages who cast delayed blast fireball for over 100 damage on turn 1 every time.

Every time you lose initiative its a party wipe.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Makes me wonder how I won that game. I loved the gnome armies and the fight with Takhisis or rather her Tiamat like self. I can't recall if DQOK had a Dave's Challenge.

 

[Cael]

Only DKK has Dave's Challenge in the Krynn series. Savage Frontier series doesn't have it.

At least the random encounters is only Thenol Wizards. They, at least, are easily manageable. The Dark Wizards, on the other hand >.<

 

[DavidBVal]

Up to level 5, encounters have been boring so far compared to PoR. High AC and hp enemies that take forever to kill, enemy casters on every fight, poisonous critters that provide zero excitement or rewards but some reloads... it was beginning to feel tedious. Most battles were a rush to disable casters, followed by a slow plucking off hp until eventually enemies surrender out of boredom (or pity for my chain-misses).

However after getting some loot in Gargath Keep and Dargaard's Tomb things are looking much better, finally a gear upgrade that makes me feel I can kill stuff!

Dargaard's Tomb has also been a pretty fun and unusual dungeon. I liked the tests, and since for some reason I thought I couldn't get out of the tomb until I finished it (d'oh!) I really ended the Tests at the end of my strength, using up potions and scrolls for the last fight and with one unconscious character, and most others below 7hp. Very satisfying.

Jelek was more of a chore, a good idea as overall location but tedious encounters. I recommend doing it after Gargath and the Tomb; being a town many players will believe it's your first stop in this second "chapter" of the game, so you can get geared up before the dungeons; it obviously isn't that at all, and the extra levels and gear will make it far more doable. Also, up to the point of the ambush you can easily flee the "rough characters" you meet in the street, or at least I did the last 3-4 times.

Now I am heading to the Ogre Base, at least it doesn't sound like a place where I'll be fighting endless elven casters again...

 

[Cael]

Up to level 5, encounters have been boring so far compared to PoR. High AC and hp enemies that take forever to kill, enemy casters on every fight, poisonous critters that provide zero excitement or rewards but some reloads... it was beginning to feel tedious. Most battles were a rush to disable casters, followed by a slow plucking off hp until eventually enemies surrender out of boredom (or pity for my chain-misses).

However after getting some loot in Gargath Keep and Dargaard's Tomb things are looking much better, finally a gear upgrade that makes me feel I can kill stuff!

Dargaard's Tomb has also been a pretty fun and unusual dungeon. I liked the tests, and since for some reason I thought I couldn't get out of the tomb until I finished it (d'oh!) I really ended the Tests at the end of my strength, using up potions and scrolls for the last fight and with one unconscious character, and most others below 7hp. Very satisfying.

Jelek was more of a chore, a good idea as overall location but tedious encounters. I recommend doing it after Gargath and the Tomb; being a town many players will believe it's your first stop in this second "chapter" of the game, so you can get geared up before the dungeons; it obviously isn't that at all, and the extra levels and gear will make it far more doable. Also, up to the point of the ambush you can easily flee the "rough characters" you meet in the street, or at least I did the last 3-4 times.

Now I am heading to the Ogre Base, at least it doesn't sound like a place where I'll be fighting endless elven casters again...

Jelek is the first place you can get composite longbows.

 

[DavidBVal]

Up to level 5, encounters have been boring so far compared to PoR. High AC and hp enemies that take forever to kill, enemy casters on every fight, poisonous critters that provide zero excitement or rewards but some reloads... it was beginning to feel tedious. Most battles were a rush to disable casters, followed by a slow plucking off hp until eventually enemies surrender out of boredom (or pity for my chain-misses).

However after getting some loot in Gargath Keep and Dargaard's Tomb things are looking much better, finally a gear upgrade that makes me feel I can kill stuff!

Dargaard's Tomb has also been a pretty fun and unusual dungeon. I liked the tests, and since for some reason I thought I couldn't get out of the tomb until I finished it (d'oh!) I really ended the Tests at the end of my strength, using up potions and scrolls for the last fight and with one unconscious character, and most others below 7hp. Very satisfying.

Jelek was more of a chore, a good idea as overall location but tedious encounters. I recommend doing it after Gargath and the Tomb; being a town many players will believe it's your first stop in this second "chapter" of the game, so you can get geared up before the dungeons; it obviously isn't that at all, and the extra levels and gear will make it far more doable. Also, up to the point of the ambush you can easily flee the "rough characters" you meet in the street, or at least I did the last 3-4 times.

Now I am heading to the Ogre Base, at least it doesn't sound like a place where I'll be fighting endless elven casters again...

Jelek is the first place you can get composite longbows.

Yeah, a short incursion to take bows and maybe scrolls to scribe is good.After that I'd go straight to the Tomb.

 

[DavidBVal]

Promoting from Crown to Sword and from Sword to Rose can indeed involve level loss. However, the XP tables for Crown and Sword overlap, so there are certain XP ranges (in Champions) where you can promote without losing levels. Check the manual and promote in one of those.

These are the tables, keeping the relevant levels:

KNIGHT (CROWN)


L 6 XP: 85,000 THAC0 : 15 #Attacks 1
L 7 XP: 140,000 THAC0: 14 #Attacks 1.5
L 8 XP: 220,000 THAC0: 13 #Attacks 1.5

KNIGHT (SWORD)

6 XP: 95,000 THAC0 : 15 #Attacks 1 Spells: 1 -
7 XP: 175,000 THAC0 : 14 #Attacks 1.5 Spells: 2 -
8 XP: 350,000 THAC0 : 13 #Attacks 1.5 Spells: 2 1

I think unless you're real short on clerical magic, the best option to switch to Sword is either at 175,000 XP or later. 7th level is very important because of the extra half-attack, under no circumstance one should delay getting it or revert to 6th level just to get a couple level 1 slots.

 

[KeighnMcDeath]

Do you lose hp if your knight upgrade puts you a level lower? Thinking about min/max here and squeezing out an extra HD.

I enjoyed the fuck out of Cok. When we died from shitty centipedes I laughed. Getting crushed by the dragons was kind of thrilling and I liked the odd pacing, weird moon magic, currency, new gfx, and some tweaks like difficulty (i believe cok had that). Yeah, i felt a little like ass getting ass kicked at first after laying waste in Curse of Azure Bonds and POR.

I bought Secret at the same time and finally snagged Buck at the end of the year. I switched back and forth between Secret & Cok but ignored Buck. To this day... I never pkayed Buck. I should remedy that.

 

[Cael]

Do you lose hp if your knight upgrade puts you a level lower? Thinking about min/max here and squeezing out an extra HD.

Yes, you do.

 

[Ladonna]

Is there any benefit to taking a pure single class Fighter over a Knight?

A minor one I just found after playing a bit: Knights can't sweep. Hardly relevant in the long run but there it is.

Knights start off on first level, and no first level character can sweep. Your knight will gain that ability once they hit second level.

 

[Hobo Elf]

Do multiclassed characters still split their XP after one of their classes have hit the level cap? Can't remember how it works in PnP and even then it might work different in the gold box programming.

 

[Cael]

Do multiclassed characters still split their XP after one of their classes have hit the level cap? Can't remember how it works in PnP and even then it might work different in the gold box programming.

Yes, they do.

 

[Hobo Elf]

I'm currently at Jelek and my patience with the game is beginning to run thin. Throtl Keep started going heavy into the Cleric and Black Mage spam about halfway through the dungeon and now at Jelek every encounter has Elven Clerics who are highly resistant to Sleep and Hold Person. Combat feels way less tactical and more about luck if I can Hold them myself first or not. It's getting kind of tiresome restarting the game so often for random encounters just because I failed to Hold the enemy clerics, or if they just happened to roll for a higher initiative and Hold or Charm me immediately. Is this what I can expect from the rest of the game? I'm not sure I care to play much more if it is.

Stinking Cloud, Luke. Use the Stinking Cloud.

Elves are also 90% resistance to Sleep and Charm. It is right there in the manual...

Indeed, I make liberal use of Stinking Cloud. The problem is that sometimes there are more enemy casters than I can cover with SC. The other problem is that I still haven't gotten a feel for the range I have to be in to cast it on the spot I want. I still goof up and stand a square too far away from time-to-time.

You pretty much have to win initiative against casters. Initiative is determined by dexterity; if you didn't max dexterity on your characters when you started, you run an increased risk that an enemy caster will get spells off before you can act. If you think that's bad now, wait until you run into high-level casters.

I noticed that after I finished Throtl Keep the first time, which is I why I started a new party and made all my Magic-Users and Clerics into Elves with maxed out DEX.

 

[Cael]

I'm currently at Jelek and my patience with the game is beginning to run thin. Throtl Keep started going heavy into the Cleric and Black Mage spam about halfway through the dungeon and now at Jelek every encounter has Elven Clerics who are highly resistant to Sleep and Hold Person. Combat feels way less tactical and more about luck if I can Hold them myself first or not. It's getting kind of tiresome restarting the game so often for random encounters just because I failed to Hold the enemy clerics, or if they just happened to roll for a higher initiative and Hold or Charm me immediately. Is this what I can expect from the rest of the game? I'm not sure I care to play much more if it is.

Stinking Cloud, Luke. Use the Stinking Cloud.

Elves are also 90% resistance to Sleep and Charm. It is right there in the manual...

Indeed, I make liberal use of Stinking Cloud. The problem is that sometimes there are more enemy casters than I can cover with SC. The other problem is that I still haven't gotten a feel for the range I have to be in to cast it on the spot I want. I still goof up and stand a square too far away from time-to-time.

You pretty much have to win initiative against casters. Initiative is determined by dexterity; if you didn't max dexterity on your characters when you started, you run an increased risk that an enemy caster will get spells off before you can act. If you think that's bad now, wait until you run into high-level casters.

I noticed that after I finished Throtl Keep the first time, which is I why I started a new party and made all my Magic-Users and Clerics into Elves with maxed out DEX.

Stinking Cloud and Blade Barrier (and I think, Heal/Harm??) has range 3.
Hold Person has range 6.
Flame Strike is 6 or 12, I can't remember.

These are the ones you are most likely to screw up, and either be out of range or accidentally nuke your own people.

Hint: Stinking Cloud is your best bet vs dragons unless you have DBF or Dragonlances.