Star Wars Jedi: Fallen Order - action adventure from Respawn Entertainment

[<3sRichardSimmons]

The writing in Survivor is a complete and total fucking train wreck from start to finish, but the identity of the ultimate antagonist is an especially egregious example of it, and manages to be both a moronically stupid and moronically obvious “twist” for anyone with two brain cells to rub together.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

Fallen Order had some interesting world building about the ancient Zeffo and an 'archeological' feel. Survivor lost that vibe.

 

[Lyric Suite]

In every single game that allows independent character and camera movement m+kb is objectively the better input option.

It’s undeniably the more precise input option, but “better” is a logical fallacy.

If you want to play the game with m+kb then by all means go ahead. There are plenty of games out there with controller support that I would never touch without m+kb, but this ain’t one of them. I’ve played it both ways, and this game was clearly designed with controller as the primary intended input.

Designed with controller as the primary intended input is the logical fallacy though. For this specific subset of games (independent character and camera movement) it is not design but rather failure of implementation. Since more precise control is inherently superior, games that do not offer that experience out of the box are just substandard games. Developers may willingly sabotage their games that way because they are either incopetent or incurable consolefags but the use of the term designed that way is both dishonest and harmful in the long term.

I see no problem in saying that something is designed for the intrinsically inferior option.

(And thanks for the recommmends guys.)

If you are interested in trying an hall effect controller, the tier list here is actually pretty good compared to what i know about the current brands, around 22:50:



For some reason Flydigi doesn't sell in Europe which takes out basically all the best options in that list unless you live in North America. Aliexpress has them but... it's Aliexpress.

In terms of value, i think the wired 8Bitdo Ultimate 2C is the best controller. For 20 euros you get hall effect sticks plus a detachable cable. For 10 euros extra you get a wireless one but i heard some people had trouble making it recognize as xinput on windows (it's a nintendo switch controller by default), not sure if it's a driver issue or not. Plus on such a cheap controller not sure how good wireless is going to be.

I myself was considering getting the EasySMX X20 as the Xbox One S controller i was using as a spare is the one i broke trying to clean the stick drift lmao. This controller has removable sticks that stay attached magnetically, and i heard they get detached easily, though i seriously doubt it's during actual use. I think they come off in case you drop it etc. I like this one becuase it has four extra triggers in the back but they are placed in a way you won't accidentally hit them when holding the controller. Also, i think the dpad is shit but then that's on most of them (especially the clicky ones which are great for modern games but really bad for retro stuff. Best just get a dedicated controller for that).

I'm also considering this one:



Beyond this price point i would not go.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Anyway Fallen Order i just killed the giant bat on the Darth Maul home planet. Seriously too many stupid animal boss fights. It's really the weakest part of this game. Also the flying sequence was a bit much. Went on and on and there was no gameplay in it. The bird on the wookiee planet was more on point. Short and felt like a scene from an 80s movie. The bat felt like modern movie slop but ho well, guess they had extra cash to blow on this cinematic.

 

[Lyric Suite]

The writing in Survivor is a complete and total fucking train wreck from start to finish, but the identity of the ultimate antagonist is an especially egregious example of it, and manages to be both a moronically stupid and moronically obvious “twist” for anyone with two brain cells to rub together.

It's funny because the writing on this one isn't that terrible, aside for the NPC wombyn communists from the wookiee planet. It's bland but not cringy. Even Cere isn't bad. Aside for being unsightly to look at she isn't a terrible character. And so far i actually like Cal. He is a textbook Luke character hard to complain it's basically what the series is about.

Worst part like i said is lack of notable boss fights. Best part is the pacing. The game has this old school, linear progression that eschews all the modern bullshit designed to make you waste time on useless shit. No open world, no activities, no side quests. Just a straightforward adventure with the only padding coming in the form of having to revist some locations because they locked all the mobility otpions on later parts of the game. It is as no nonsense i've ever seen a modern game being.

 

[PrK]

Can you explain a situation where precision matters in a Souls game? Only one i can think of is when aiming bows.

...when moving the camera, which you constantly do?

I see no problem in saying that something is designed for the intrinsically inferior option.

A game designed for a specific input option is something like Jagged Alliance or Silent Hunter or something that uses a large number of discreet input commands that necessitates a keyboard thus making the game not designed for a controller.
There is nothing intrinsic in the design of 3rd person action games like the ones we’re talking about, with their few and context sensitive commands, which precludes basic m+kb support like raw mouse input or full button remapping. The design is completely compatible with it, the whole failing is one of implementation.

In the end the crux of the matter is don’t be a bitch, shame the devs that ship subpar games and demand proper support. That simple.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Can you explain a situation where precision matters in a Souls game? Only one i can think of is when aiming bows.

...when moving the camera, which you constantly do?

But if it's just panning around what do you need precision for. On a shooter you need the precision to aim and hit your target. On a Souls game it's not really that important. You can pan around just fine with a stick.

 

[PrK]

A controller analog stick with its smoothing, deadzones, acceleration etc is absolutely horrible compared to a mouse, even just for camera movement. It's not just precision, it's everything.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Ok but once you lock onto an enemy a controller is better and that's the important part in a Souls game, not panning around.

 

[Elttharion]

Soulslike/lites should definitely be played with a controller. The kinesthetics of parry windows alone make that clear, but, yes, it’s also clear that the Jedi games were built from the ground up with controllers in mind. Some of the platforming challenges in the second game were a little finicky with directionality inputs, but outside of that the control scheme of these games is quite solid.

Just out of interest, what controller would you guys (you too Lyric Suite) recommend to use to plug into a PC to play these sorts of games?

I must admit this is a genre that seems to work very well with the controller, and it's about time I got into the genre (forays with m/k were less than satisfactory).

(I should be clear, I think they could be made more m/k friendly, but since that's never going to happen one might as well bite the bullet and use the control system they were designed for.)

I have only used controllers made by Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft so I cant comment on other brands. Microsoft is the best one imho as its just plug and play, works perfectly out of the box and is just overall a solid controller. You cant go wrong with any of them, hell I had a wired 360 controller that lasted 10 years. Plus you will probably never run into input icons issues with xbox controllers, some older games wont display the correct buttons for Sony or Nintendo.

If you have a Sony or Nintendo controller laying around they are not bad per se and Steam solves almost all compatibility issues but I woudnt buy one of them over the Xbox ones. Imho Xbox>Switch Pro>DS4/DS5.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

The writing in Survivor is a complete and total fucking train wreck from start to finish, but the identity of the ultimate antagonist is an especially egregious example of it, and manages to be both a moronically stupid and moronically obvious “twist” for anyone with two brain cells to rub together.

It's funny because the writing on this one isn't that terrible.

Yeah, it's fine. Nothing amazing, but it does its job and it doesn't waste effort on needless fanbaiting or shitting all over canon.

Survivor's writing is total crap though. It doesn't help that Disney presumably forced the devs to shoehorn in connections to some of the blandest SW content ever created (The High Republic), but it's also definitely not the plot's biggest problem. Some credit should be given to Cameron Monaghan for keeping Cal relatively likeable, because holy hell the character consistently acts like a complete dipshit who surrounds himself with complete dipshits.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

It's funny because the writing on this one isn't that terrible, aside for the NPC wombyn communists from the wookiee planet. It's bland but not cringy. Even Cere isn't bad. Aside for being unsightly to look at she isn't a terrible character. And so far i actually like Cal. He is a textbook Luke character hard to complain it's basically what the series is about.

I was pleasantly surprised in 2019. I dunno how much to attribute to this:

 

[Lyric Suite]

WTF Malicos reveals himself and i'm like, finally, a fight against a Sith! But nope, moar zombies this game is giving me blue balls with this shit. Let me have some Sekiro fights damn you.

The story of Cal's master and how he died was a pretty good sequence, though this clones shit was always stupid to me, but what can you do, that's the lore i guess.

 

[Lyric Suite]

It's funny because the writing on this one isn't that terrible, aside for the NPC wombyn communists from the wookiee planet. It's bland but not cringy. Even Cere isn't bad. Aside for being unsightly to look at she isn't a terrible character. And so far i actually like Cal. He is a textbook Luke character hard to complain it's basically what the series is about.

I was pleasantly surprised in 2019. I dunno how much to attribute to this:

Wow, i had no idea. Do we know how much of it is actually his?

I wonder if he planned the main outline would explain why the pacing and structure is so coherent.

 

[Mountain]

Am I the only one who has issues with the "floating" feel of Cal? it's like his legs are zooming all over the place, like they aren't stuck to the ground.

 

[Lyric Suite]

Can't say i noticed that. Biggest problem is that his walking animation makes him look like he is constipated.

 

[Louis_Cypher]

Not sure how much Avellone contributed.... if I remember right, it was just before he was #MeToo-ed, but the game was already finished, so they perhaps played down his contribution in post-release marketing maybe.

 

[<3sRichardSimmons]

I seem to recall him saying it was basically just feedback during brainstorming and then a couple of editing passes. I think I also remember him saying he suggested the ending as well when no one could figure out how to resolve the plot. And Malicos has some watered down Avellone vibes as well.

I could be misremembering on all that, but that’s what’s in my head.

 

[ferratilis]

I'm also considering this one:

After using Gamesir Kaleid for a few months, I sold all my previous controllers because it's that good. Cyclone 2 is pretty much the same, just wireless and with TMR sticks, so it's an easy recommendation, especially at the price it goes for. One of the best things about it is that you never have to install any software if you don't want to, all the tweaks, remappings and what have you can be done on the fly, using button combinations.

Just keep in mind that apparently it's not good for Tekken and other fighting games because of its d-pad, at least that's what fighting game players say. It was perfectly fine for me, for metroidvanias and so on, but ymmv.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I seem to recall him saying it was basically just feedback during brainstorming and then a couple of editing passes. I think I also remember him saying he suggested the ending as well when no one could figure out how to resolve the plot. And Malicos has some watered down Avellone vibes as well.

I could be misremembering on all that, but that’s what’s in my head.

I guess we will never know.

BTW, is it common for modern gaymes to employ known actors now?

I mean it certainly adds to the production values but i can only imagine how much this costs (i would have saved a bunch on Forest Whitaker to be honest, he was barely in the game). It's also a bit jarring when it's a face you recognize (though in theory i'm not sure why that would be the case. If Tony Amendola was playing a character in a show it would be great why is it a problem if he is in a game?). It's just funny how we went from Patrick Stewart in Oblivion to everybody bieng a known actor in a game.

Not that i'm complaining every character who ISN'T played by a real actor in this game was terrible (and terribly animated. All the female rebels in the scene where Forest Whittaker gives his speech have Starfield eyes).

 

[Lyric Suite]

Oh one thing there was a moment during the final Eno Cordova cinematic where BD-1 is tragically looking sideways. Made me laugh like they tried to emote a frikking droid lmao.

 

[Lyric Suite]

I'm also considering this one:

After using Gamesir Kaleid for a few months, I sold all my previous controllers because it's that good. Cyclone 2 is pretty much the same, just wireless and with TMR sticks, so it's an easy recommendation, especially at the price it goes for. One of the best things about it is that you never have to install any software if you don't want to, all the tweaks, remappings and what have you can be done on the fly, using button combinations.

Just keep in mind that apparently it's not good for Tekken and other fighting games because of its d-pad, at least that's what fighting game players say. It was perfectly fine for me, for metroidvanias and so on, but ymmv.

How is the stick tension? I heard it can degrade on some controller leading to drift (ironically) if the dead zone is set too close to zero, something to do with the center tension. The new Flydigi models (Vader 4 Pro or Apex 4) don't have this issue though i'm not sure if that's even a problem since i never experienced anything like that yet on my Gulikit KK2 (and two years of playing FromSoft games hasn't been exactly light on it).

Right now i think i narrowed my selection to the Cyclone 2 and the Vader 4. Cyclone 2 i can buy from Amazon.it but it's a Chinese store (Amazon shipping though). Vader 4 i can only get from Aliexpress which... i don't know. Vader 4 has adjustable tension on the sticks which could actually make this viable to play racing games. Also has 4 triggers on the back instead of two. Cyclone 2 has TMR sticks as you said which is the new thing.

Oh and Vader 4 MIGHT have a better d-pad though at this point it's just best to get a dedicated controller for arcade games.

 

[ferratilis]

How is the stick tension?

They feel much better to use than anything I've tried previously, including both official Xbox and Dualshock/Dualsense controllers, and a bunch of third party ones. They're grippy, so no problem if you have sweaty hands, there are anti friction rings so it doesn't feel as scratchy as using an Xbox controller, and moving the sticks themselves is very smooth and doesn't feel like there is any cardinal snapping. I've actually had two Gamesirs so far, G7 SE and currently Kaleid, both pairs of sticks felt the same. Apparently, Cyclone 2 uses TMR sticks which are even smoother. But those anti friction rings and grippy tops are what made be get rid of all my previous controllers, it just feels better in your hands.

Whether you buy it from Aliexpress, Temu, Amazon, or Maxgaming it doesn't matter, Gamesir has partnership with all of them. Just pick the one that has the cheapest delivery.

 

[Sergio]

Soulslike/lites should definitely be played with a controller. The kinesthetics of parry windows alone make that clear, but, yes, it’s also clear that the Jedi games were built from the ground up with controllers in mind. Some of the platforming challenges in the second game were a little finicky with directionality inputs, but outside of that the control scheme of these games is quite solid.

Just out of interest, what controller would you guys (you too Lyric Suite) recommend to use to plug into a PC to play these sorts of games?

I must admit this is a genre that seems to work very well with the controller, and it's about time I got into the genre (forays with m/k were less than satisfactory).

(I should be clear, I think they could be made more m/k friendly, but since that's never going to happen one might as well bite the bullet and use the control system they were designed for.)

I have only used controllers made by Nintendo, Sony and Microsoft so I cant comment on other brands. Microsoft is the best one imho as its just plug and play, works perfectly out of the box and is just overall a solid controller. You cant go wrong with any of them, hell I had a wired 360 controller that lasted 10 years. Plus you will probably never run into input icons issues with xbox controllers, some older games wont display the correct buttons for Sony or Nintendo.

If you have a Sony or Nintendo controller laying around they are not bad per se and Steam solves almost all compatibility issues but I woudnt buy one of them over the Xbox ones. Imho Xbox>Switch Pro>DS4/DS5.

Yeah absolutely don't buy a PS5 controller for PC. They have serious drifting issues, at least for people who use them A LOT (like me). I'm testing one with hall's effect right now and I pray that it helps.

 

[Lyric Suite]

The only problem that could occur with hall effect that i heard is string central tension becoming loser over time, but that's not an hall effect issue per-se. It's just that hall effect are so sensitive and precise that even a slight movement off the center gets picked up and you get drift that way.

The solution is usually to set the dead zone a bit higher than zero.

Of course, this is what COULD happen whether it will actually happen is a different question. Hasn't happened on my Gulikit KK2 after two years of savage manhandling and this was the first hall effect controller on the market so i don't know.

They also say hall effect needs calibration. Again i didn't do shit on mine and it has been working fine so. Most hall effect controllers can be calibrated with software so even if it comes up it's not an issue.

Besides all this, theoretically hall effect controllers will never drift, which is a godsend because stick drift is the number one issue you are going to face with a regular controller. You have a 90% chance of getting that before any other kind of failure, and that goes even for expensive controllers like the Xbox Elite (a friend got drift after two years on one of those).